Hi fi setup advice

cruhoortwunk

Hey lads,
I have a budget of about 700 to get a nice audio setup. I want one that will work for movies as well as the best possible sound for listening to vinyl and flac files. I'd like it to be fairly future proof with the connections and inputs too.
Would I be better with a good home cinema system with amp and speakers included? Or a separate amp and speakers? Having the best sound for my music is most important, with the movies coming a distant second.
I was looking at this Onkyo:
http://www.whathifi.com/review/onkyo-tx-nr609
Any thoughts? Maybe it's ott for my needs.
Any speaker recommendations? Sound quality is more important than volume/power for me.

dharn

short answer to your question you would be better off with separate home cinema amp and separate speaker package, denon do a brilliant range of home cinema amps after that 5.1 speaker set and you are on your way

Idleater

cruhoortwunk wrote: »

Would I be better with a good home cinema system with amp and speakers included? Or a separate amp and speakers? Having the best sound for my music is most important, with the movies coming a distant second.

Have you considered spending the money on a stereo setup instead of 5.1? You'd get a lot more for your money sound quality wise.

cnocbui

Speakers are the most important factor in achieving sound quality. If the proportion of the budget that is allocated to speakers goes to buying two of them, instead of 5, the chances are a better overall sound quality will be achieved.

dharn

true enough cnocbui, but denon home cinema amps are so good nowadays or indeed marantz, and if you won the lotto arcam, so rather than buying a marantz stereo amp or a denon he could buy a homecinema amp and perhaps start off with 2 good speakers and use it in stereo and build it up that way, sub next then rears and then center

Slaphead07

cnocbui wrote: »

Speakers are the most important factor in achieving sound quality.

I'm afraid that's nonsense. If the source and amp aren't good enough then no speaker can magically "upscale" the signal. All components deserve equal consideration as you'll only ever hear the weakest link in the chain. Synergy is very important but it's only through experience that you learn what works best with what.

Slaphead07

Idleater wrote: »

Have you considered spending the money on a stereo setup instead of 5.1? You'd get a lot more for your money sound quality wise.

yep.
If music is the more important factor then you're absolutely right. Concentrate on the stereo first even if this means putting the cinema through simple but good quality analogue 2 channel for a while. It will still be better than a cheap plastic "cinema in a box". You an always add to it later and you'll always have quality.

cnocbui

Slaphead07 wrote: »

I'm afraid that's nonsense. If the source and amp aren't good enough then no speaker can magically "upscale" the signal. All components deserve equal consideration as you'll only ever hear the weakest link in the chain. Synergy is very important but it's only through experience that you learn what works best with what.

What is it about the word 'most' you fail to understand?

The main emphasis of my advice was that two good speakers will sound better than five mediocre ones. If you think that is incorrect, you are free to do so.

Slaphead07

cnocbui wrote: »

Speakers are the most important factor in achieving sound quality.

This is nonsense.

cnocbui

Slaphead07 wrote: »

This is nonsense.

This is my experience.

Slaphead07

cnocbui wrote: »

This is my experience.

Uh huh? In a previous "discussion" you stated nobody could differentiate between a CD and a compressed audio file. When you posted a pic of your system I understood why. You stuck expensive speakers on the end of a mediocre and tired combination of amps and an Ipod as a source. Your system is simply incapable of differentiating between a red book CD recording and a file that's a fraction of the original quality. THAT has been your experience. There are no speakers that can take a poor source (i.e. compressed files) and restore them to full CD quality. They don't exist. Please accept that your experience is just that - it's not fact.

I don't mind you convincing yourself that your system is the bees knees but when you advise others to follow that path I have an issue with it.

cnocbui

:rolleyes:

dharn

it seem slaphead does not recognize a good cd player when he sees one , he thought you were playing all your music from an i pod

Slaphead07

dharn wrote: »

it seem slaphead does not recognize a good cd player when he sees one , he thought you were playing all your music from an i pod

Unless burned to CD the CD player can't play compressed files.
I had one of those CD players on loan for a while. It's ok but nothing special. I wouldn't call it a "good" player. But my comment was on the amps, you could put a DCS stack through those amps and it would sound like an old NAD. As I mentioned... weakest link.

Again, to repeat myself, "I don't mind you convincing yourself that your system is the bees knees but when you advise others to follow that path I have an issue with it."

cruhoortwunk

Cheers for the tips lads. I was leaning towards the amp and speakers setup already, but this has confirmed it.
Any exact models of speakers and amp to look at?

Slaphead07

Given your budget it might be wise to look at second hand... a quick browse of adverts showed this one. http://www.adverts.ie/home-audio/b-w-dm-603-s2-speakers-arcam-alpha-7se-cd-player-8r-amplifier-nordost-blue-heaven-and-super-flatline-cables-aavik-stand-hi-fi-system/1343810

I don't know the seller nor can I vouch for the gear but that's the sort of thing to look for.

cruhoortwunk

What about a pair of Monitor Audio Bronze BX2 and the Onkyo TX-NR609?

Idleater

cruhoortwunk wrote: »

What about a pair of Monitor Audio Bronze BX2 and the Onkyo TX-NR609?

Onkyo are very high on features but not necessarily as good on performance. Having said that, a friend has the 605/606 one and it is still going strong.

To be honest it'd be a grand setup to start with, and easily upgradable with additional speakers over time, but if you are a pure stereo head it'd be nothing like a "proper" stereo only setup alluded to earlier by the other posters.

turbot

My quick tip:

You can get an amazing quality hifi system for a great price if you:

(1) get old versions of What HiFi so you can figure out what used to be good

(2) purchase carefully (and possibly pickup) the kit, from careful owners, who treat their high end hifi with a lot of respect

(3) do not buy components that are not too based on digital technologies that go out of date, such as old pro-logic systems.

For example, you can get Mission 751's on Ebay for €100ish, which sounds as good as any small speakers that would cost €600+.

For example:
- I got a high end Denon amp, that originally retailed for £500stg approx 15 years ago, for £50. It weighed 20kg, and was very powerful, and sounds very clear.
- I'm personally very happy with my Mission 75-series speakers (751, 752, 753) which were award winners in the early to mid 90s. A good amp, and set of speakers suitable for your room will be an investment you'll love for years to come. Really high end hifi is incredibly well engineered and will last for many years provided it has been well looked after. This seems especially true for kit that pre-dated outsourcing manufacturing to Asia - eg. in the mid 1990s.

If you buy pristine old mission 751s as your main speakers, you'll be glad you did.

andy1249

For the budget , I'd recommend the stereo amp , good pair of speakers route myself.

Low end or entry level av receivers are ok for movies , but they suck for music.
The 605 in particular , an amp I had for a very short time , was terrible for music.

Regarding the following

(1) get old versions of What HiFi so you can figure out what used to be good

That magazine as it stands currently , prints the most outrageous nonsense and good reviews are clearly based on ad revenue , in my opinion you cannot trust a word in it.
Any magazine giving 5 star reviews to the likes of a HDMI cable , or even reviewing them in the first place , is clearly talking out of their backsides.

(3) do not buy components that are not too based on digital technologies that go out of date, such as old pro-logic systems.

Pro logic was not digital , it was analog ... it was a precursor to dolby digital and appeared on a lot of the earlier receivers , the same rule goes for those old models , Stereo amps are better than receivers for music.

dharn

andy you comment re magazines reviews, i could not agree with you more, see a good review for a marantz... the magazine will be full of ads for marantz, next week the denon is the greatest thing since the slice pan... mag full of denon ads,
they have really set a trend where mains conditioners, hdmi leads etc have been talked up to ridiculous levels

cruhoortwunk

Cheers lads-any particular stereo amps you can recommend? I notice most don't seem to have digital inputs (SPDIF or USB)
I'd like SPDIF at least.

Slaphead07

cruhoortwunk wrote: »

Cheers lads-any particular stereo amps you can recommend? I notice most don't seem to have digital inputs (SPDIF or USB)
I'd like SPDIF at least.

the better amps won't have that because that's not what an amp does! You'll need an external DAC but they can be quite cheap.

cruhoortwunk

Didn't realise the stereo ones were all analogue. Hence the good sound?
How about the Cambridge Audio Azur 651A? Must have a dac built in.
I have a turntable to plug into it.
Does it not make sense then getting an analogue amp for digital sources?
I don't imagine the sound would be great converted from dig to analog.

andy1249

Didn't realise the stereo ones were all analogue. Hence the good sound?

All amps are essentially analog , in that the output of the amps , and in 99% of cases the input to the final stage of the amp , is analog.

With a receiver , what you have is multiple sets of decoding circuitry built in , which takes your range of digital signals , Dolby digital , DTS , Dolby TruHD , DTS MA audio , PCM 2 channel or multichannel , etc. and decodes them , processes them if thats the way you have it set up , feeds them to a DAC , then sends the analog output to the final amplification stage.

With a stereo amp , you essentially just have the final stage. It is assumed that whatever player or source you are connecting is already decoded.

So , you can see that with a receiver , most of your money is spent on the expensive decoding circuitry , and in entry level models , this is given precedence over the much more important amplification stage.

This is one reason why the likes of the entry level Onkyos sound so bad for music , read the reviews carefully and you will see that what they really say is you are getting an excellent range of decoding/processing options for the money , but at the end of the day , its the quality of the sound output that really matters , as thats the objective after all , and in that area they dont really perform.

This is why , given the same budget ,a stereo amp will sound much better than a receiver , as 2 thirds of the budget has not been spent on decoding/processing circuitry.

You have to spend a lot on a receiver to get the same performance as a stereo amp costing one fifth of the price , and even with that as a rough guide , its primary function will still be multichannel and may not do as good a job.

Ideally , if you want both Movies and music , you should have separate setups , also a good compromise , is to get a receiver with pre-outs , feed the front left and right outputs to a stereo amps input , and have the stereo amp driving the front left and right speakers in your surround setup.

With that setup , the front speakers and the stereo amp + source are on for music , both amps and all channels are engaged for movies and surround material.

Front left and right speakers in such a setup should of course be a full range stereo pair.

You could start with a stereo amp , speakers and source , and build up gradually to such a system.

dharn

andy ,on the last point in your post, can you divide the output of a home cinema receiver between pre-amp out and amplfied channels, say if you do as you suggest connect front left and right out preamp to a stereo amp, can most av amps run the remaining channels itself

Idleater

dharn wrote: »

andy ,on the last point in your post, can you divide the output of a home cinema receiver between pre-amp out and amplfied channels, say if you do as you suggest connect front left and right out preamp to a stereo amp, can most av amps run the remaining channels itself

If anyone is considering going down that route, the best solution is to buy processors and separate power amplifiers, but yes if the avr supports pre out then it should support that for a subset of channels.

I've done this with my setup, and more expensive, it means less compromise. I have a pre processor, one 2 channel power amp and one 5 channel one. Depending on source I either go analogue all the way (phono) , minimal processing at source (cd), dac in processor. (dvd) or hd multi channel pcm from ps3.

andy1249

andy ,on the last point in your post, can you divide the output of a home cinema receiver between pre-amp out and amplfied channels, say if you do as you suggest connect front left and right out preamp to a stereo amp, can most av amps run the remaining channels itself

Yes ,thats not a problem , as long as the amp has pre-outs it should work fine , its my setup at the moment.

dharn

thanks for your reply, if you are using your system for 5.1 how do you gauge the volume setting for the speakers going through your stereo amp

andy1249

thanks for your reply, if you are using your system for 5.1 how do you gauge the volume setting for the speakers going through your stereo amp

I got a Stereo amp with a "Power amp " mode , it has an input and a setting that caters for using a receiver or processor in this way , the volume is controlled by my AV receiver when its in this mode.

Idleater

dharn wrote: »

thanks for your reply, if you are using your system for 5.1 how do you gauge the volume setting for the speakers going through your stereo amp

The amps are just power amps, so no volume adjust. The output from the previous amp stage is adjustable in the processor.
Basically I have the two components of eg the Onkyo 609 split into two (three) boxes. If I select the phono or cd source, only the stereo amp switches on, and if I. Select ps3 both amps switch on.
It means I can match an amplifier to speakers independent of the processor. At the moment the stereo is 2x100w but I'm contemplating upgrading to a 2x250w. The surround speakers are small so I have a 5x100w but if I get bigger speakers I can slot in a 5x250w.
Equally I could swap out the processor in future should 8 channel lpcm become outdated :-)