New Junction Ballinclea - Killiney Road

CatFromHue

Does anyone know why the junction at Ballinclea - Killiney Road was changed to what it is now?

It's gone from this

http://maps.google.ie/maps?hl=en&ll=53.271338,-6.120822&spn=0.000776,0.001958&t=h&z=19

to where this section of road has been filled in:

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=5305720

It's now a bad road layout in my opinion and is a little dangerous as the Ballinclea road section has a very narrow bend in it.

Fratton Fred

The only logical explanation I can think of is that the council desperately wanted to waste money on a completely pointless project.

patrickbrophy18

Couldn't agree with you more, I think it is absolutely ridiculous. A lot of people claim that this and the work done to Killiney Towers Roundabout are improvements to the infrastructure. Apparently, it makes them safer for cyclists, pedestrians and other vulnerable road users. To a certain extent, I can agree that cyclists and pedestrians are more vulnerable than motorists due to their more fragile nature.

However, in the majority of cases that I have seen, many of these cyclists and pedestrians make themselves vulnerable when they insist on being oblivious to their surroundings. For instance, I have seen many cyclists who go the wrong way down one-way streets. A solid example of this was when I saw a cyclist going down a stretch of the Vico Road leading to Bono's house. This particular stretch is for northbound traffic only and yet, I saw a cyclist traveling southbound along this section.

It would have been different had he dismounted the unit before proceeding. I saw another example of this where a group of cyclists went the wrong way up a mono directional stretch of Sandycove Avenue West. I frequently see cyclists braking red lights and I often see pedestrians and more particularly, elderly ones crossing the road without looking left and right. To me, this is undue self-inflicted vulnerability in which no motorist should have to shoulder any responsibility.

Having said all of that, I do acknowledge the fact that dangerous driving is very rampant in Ireland. There are many aspects to traffic calming which I do appreciate. These include speed ramps and miniature roundabouts where main-flow through traffic doesn't operate. I also see the logic of lower speed limits (30 KM/H) along residential zones and other built up areas.

Nevertheless, I cannot see the logic in reducing the amount of space along such roads or tightening junctions as this increases the likelihood of head-on collisions. Dalkey, Killiney and Sandycove are examples of areas where the "main:rolleyes:" roads are dangerously narrow. I also think that some of the roads are too narrow or barely wide enough for bi-directional traffic flow. Dalkey Avenue and Barnhill Road are the examples of such that immediately spring to mind.

Back to the topic at hand, the junction at Ballinclea and Killiney Roads was well capable of accommodating the flow of larger vehicles like articulated trucks and buses. Now, a 3 tonne limit has been imposed because the council have essentially downgraded this junction. The 59 bus is also struggling to get around this new "improved" junction.

By a similar demonstration, the council made a complete dog's breakfast out of the Killiney Towers Roundabout. Again, prior to it's ruination:mad:, it was well able to accommodate vehicles of such as articulated trucks and buses. Now, some of the exits have 3 tonne limits and the 59 and 8 buses can barely fit through them.

So far, I do not like the direction in which the council are going with such idiotic measures. In fact, I can see negative effects such as a drop in business occurring as in indirect result of permanent traffic diversions where motorists will favor the wider roads over the narrower ones. In other words, businesses along the narrower roads will likely suffer because their accessibility has been hindered. I could go on.....

But alas, the council think they are experts in town planning. Yet, their regressive measures (Pay and Display, Architectural Conservation Areas, Traffic Calming, Road Narrowing) are destroying local businesses.:rolleyes: Essentially, the coastal areas between Dun Laoghaire and the north of Shankill have needed a massive revisit of their commercial and logistical appeal for decades.

Seaswimmer

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

However, in the majority of cases that I have seen, many of these cyclists and pedestrians make themselves vulnerable when they insist on being oblivious to their surroundings. For instance, I have seen many cyclists who go the wrong way down one-way streets. A solid example of this was when I saw a cyclist going down a stretch of the Vico Road leading to Bono's house. This particular stretch is for northbound traffic only and yet, I saw a cyclist traveling southbound along this section.

It would have been different had he dismounted the unit before proceeding. I saw another example of this where a group of cyclists went the wrong way up a mono directional stretch of Sandycove Avenue West. I frequently see cyclists braking red lights and I often see pedestrians and more particularly, elderly ones crossing the road without looking left and right. To me, this is undue self-inflicted vulnerability in which no motorist should have to shoulder any responsibility.

.

Not sure what this has to do with the original topic. Your desire for wider roads, more traffic, less traffic calming and the marginalisation of other road users such as pedestrians and cyclists is apparent from your previous postings.. The whole push in urban transport planning is to make communities safer and more pleasant places to live. If this affects car users by slowing down their journey slightly then its a small price to pay...

Cookie_Monster

Just back for the week from NZ and have driven this junction 2-3 times. It's immeasurably better than it was, wider road at the turn, much better sight lines and all round better visibility. My only concern would be the tightness of the turn for buses.

LXFlyer

But has the 59 not been using that section all along?

CatFromHue

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Just back for the week from NZ and have driven this junction 2-3 times. It's immeasurably better than it was, wider road at the turn, much better sight lines and all round better visibility. My only concern would be the tightness of the turn for buses.

Hmmm fair enough. I think the only place where there is more room is for cars turning onto Ballinclea Road coming down from Killiney Hill. There wasn't exactly a major problem with the last junction in this aspect though.

RosieJoe

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Just back for the week from NZ and have driven this junction 2-3 times. It's immeasurably better than it was, wider road at the turn, much better sight lines and all round better visibility. My only concern would be the tightness of the turn for buses.

Welcome back Cookie, enjoy your stay!

monument

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Nevertheless[/B], I cannot see the logic in reducing the amount of space along such roads or tightening junctions as this increases the likelihood of head-on collisions.

Can't comment on the new junction without seeing it, but tightening junctions is a fairly standard traffic management measure to slow cars down and has been proven again and again to make things safer.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Back to the topic at hand, the junction at Ballinclea and Killiney Roads was well capable of accommodating the flow of larger vehicles like articulated trucks and buses. Now, a 3 tonne limit has been imposed because the council have essentially downgraded this junction. The 59 bus is also struggling to get around this new "improved" junction.

Changing the road junction layout seems to reflect the nature of the roads and the area -- Residential roads, in a residential area, and with a large school on the road. These are not even regional roads.

Again, can't comment on how the buses manage or not, but I'm guessing they are managing.

patrickbrophy18

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Not sure what this has to do with the original topic.

I'll tell you what this has to do with the original topic. Many of the junctions such as the Killiney-Ballinclea Road junction are tightened so that "they are safer:rolleyes: for cyclists and pedestrians". This is often the result of complaints made by cyclists and pedestrians who haven't taken the time to observe their surroundings before making certain decisions. Look at the main article in today's metro or alternatively here. Yet, the roads are being tailored to cater for this ignorance.

Seaswimmer wrote: »

Your desire for wider roads, more traffic, less traffic calming and the marginalisation of other road users such as pedestrians and cyclists is apparent from your previous postings..

So?

Wider roads are safer because they provide more clearance between cyclists, buses and cars and enables a smoother flow of bi-directional traffic movements. They also make it more attractive to visit businesses around their alignments. Traffic calming should really be confined to cul de sacs or roads that are neither regional nor distributor routes. Let's not forget that Killiney-Ballinclea Road acts as a connector route between Killiney Village, Fitzpatrick's Castle and Killiney Shopping Center. As such, any traffic calming imposed along this route will more than likely strangle the arteries that supply business to the establishments in their vicinity.

Seaswimmer wrote: »

The whole push in urban transport planning is to make communities safer and more pleasant places to live.

Do you mean safer for those who fail to observe their surroundings?

Again, anyone who looks left and right before crossing the road is FAR less likely to be in danger.

Tightening a junction that sees regular use by buses automatically makes it a hazard and hence, more dangerous. Actually, it is no coincidence that John Bailey lives directly opposite this junction.

Seaswimmer wrote: »

If this affects car users by slowing down their journey slightly then its a small price to pay...

Small price?

Again, the inevitability of traffic diversion as a result of a less attractive road layout means any business along it's alignment is hindered which increases the likelihood of closures.

Why not go a step further and pedestrianize the bejaysus out of every road in the Killiney, Dalkey and Sandycove area and make it a gigantic playground for the simple-minded, oblivious community!:rolleyes::D:rolleyes::D

monument

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Yet, the roads are being tailored to cater for this ignorance.

The ignorance of motorists, cyclist and people walking. Motorists seem to be the worst:

On average, 3 out of 5 motorists exceeded the posted speed limit in urban areas.

Less than 10% obey 30km speed limit

97% of motorists ignore traffic law

53.8% of motorists surveyed “admitted to using a handheld mobile phone at least occasionally while driving.”

Half of motorists surveyed putting lives at risk by stopping on motorway to call or text

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Again, the inevitability of traffic diversion as a result of a less attractive road layout means any business along it's alignment is hindered which increases the likelihood of closures.

Come on, tick all of the ranting boxes to make traffic calming to be evil:

• It stops delivers to shops and thus puts jobs at risk
• It stops people from getting to shops so kills business
• It affects public transport so much that it will break buses
• It makes things more dangerous
• It stops ambulances, police cars and fire tenders

The problem is none of these things are true. Nor is this:

Seaswimmer

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Look at the main article in today's Metro or alternatively here.

I really have to laugh when anyone uses the Metro and the Indo as their sources to back up statements...:D

I notice the article is by Eddie Cunningham, motoring editor, commenting on a "survey" by Semperit (car tyre maker). They may be biased????

Fratton Fred

As I said on another thread about this topic, if they really wanted to improve road safety they could start by resurfacing Church Road in Ballybrack, that is a disgrace.

I've no doubt the change is an overall improvement, as are the somewhat OTT changes to the Toewers roundabout, but I find it very hard to believe that they were the most pressing requirements.

Personally, I've never had a problem cycling around that area, the Graduate roundabout, or the Sallynoggin/Glenageary roundabout on the other hand....

Cookie_Monster

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I've no doubt the change is an overall improvement, as are the somewhat OTT changes to the Toewers roundabout, but I find it very hard to believe that they were the most pressing requirements.

Very true, the state of both Church road and the Noggin Hill (Lower Glenageary Road) warrant work far more than either that junction or the roundabout. I was amazed last week that L Glen. Rd was still in the state it was, there are huge chunks of that road missing

monument

I went and had a look at the roundabout this morning and so also looked at the junction (was going for a long cycle anyway, might as well kill three kittens with the one stone etc)...

I'm shocked that anybody is giving out about the junction, I really don't see what the fuse is about, and I was expecting a tiny junction but it still has a very, very wide turning radius on at least one side and loads of room overall.

My last post should have just been the picture of the kitten.

patrickbrophy18

monument wrote: »

I went and had a look at the roundabout this morning and so also looked at the junction (was going for a long cycle anyway, might as well kill three kittens with the one stone etc)...

I'm shocked that anybody is giving out about the junction, I really don't see what the fuse is about, and I was expecting a tiny junction but it still has a very, very wide turning radius on at least one side and loads of room overall.

I was driving around the Ballinclea/Killiney Road Junction today and I suppose it could be a lot worse.:D I was probably thinking about it when there were obstructive cones which made this junction seem much narrower as the approach from Fitzpatrick's Castle is wider than I initially thought.

However, I still maintain that the work done to the roundabout was unnecessary. This is especially true about the entry to Glenageary Road Upper which is too tight. There are now barriers which are hemming the roundabout in even more. Anyway, nothing can be done about it now that the damage is done.:mad: