Straight razor honing-What are the requirements?

Deise Musashi

Well lads,

I am messing about polishing some knives, and browsing the web, and dropped in here again. I use a Merkur Futur with Feathers mostly, have some older DE razors and a Dovo Shavette and a Dalling-Bideford "Agent" Straight which is getting the polish atm.!

I also sharpen knives for people on the hunting and cooking forums. I like to sharpen stuff, and I have several ways of doing that.

I am just wondering what it is that people need in a straight razor sharpening.
Is it final edge angle, level of finish, depth of polish or all that and more?

I've been looking in to sharpening convex hairdressing shears but can't get any answers on what's required?
I love learning new things and having new sharpening challenges.

If some of you lads could let me know what you need in a razor I can start learning how to deliver that finish.

Currently for knives and stuff I use DMT and Eze-Lap Diamond products, a 1" x 42" belt sander with belts from 80 grit down to 40/20/15/9 micron and leather stropping belts, waterstones, arkansas stones, surgical black stone, Edge Pro with stock water stones and Chosera stones (3K/5K and 10K) lots of strops and compounds including Starkie Sharp Blue Smurf Poo, green and white buffer compounds, red and black Dovo compounds, 3/1/.5 and .25 micron diamond pastes. I also have access to guys who develop many new products not for sale yet, guys who work up the gear for sale on Chefsknivestogo and Jende Industries for example.

I read somewhere that Ireland needs a honemeister, I would like to take that on as a learning thing. If I knew what's needed I can use the gear I have and the guys I know from other obsessive sharpening forums to work out what I need to do to deliver decent shaves.

Some of the guys I know have gotten really good steel kitchen knives shave ready!

Like Tom from Jende Industries (mainly started making reed knives for musical instruments)

Thanks for your time lads, I look forward to hearing from ye what ye need in a good honing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmPj4BsScRc

Gran Hermano

Have a look here
http://www.coticule.be/straight-razor-honing.html


Useful forum here
http://www.artisanshaving.org/index.php

Deise Musashi

And Down the Rabbit Hole I go...Again

See yis lads when I again surface for air...and steel!



and a Big Thanks to Gran Hermano fer the links! Cheers lad!

Deise Musashi

Not so bad!

Just had my first straight razor shave (almost) and I'm not dead!

Took the "Agent" I was polishing and tried shaving with it and a Dovo Shavette.

I got the straight when my best friends Dad died, his mate was an alky Barber used to work on Mary St. Dungarvan. He'd nip across the road to the pub for a drink to steady the hand before shaves!

Anyway, the less good of two razors found me and I did what I know to do to knives. Being thinner, carbon steel and very hollow ground this blade took a great edge!

I am usd to my DE Merkur at this point, I have a good bit of razor burn now from the open blade. I shaved the right side of my face with the straight, tried the shavette for the left. Very uncomfortable with pulling and so I used the Straight to do both sides.

All was good until I hit the chin area, being I have a fat head I thought I could swivel the flesh and shave the smooth bits

I cut myself pretty well on the left corner of my mouth, the will to finish deserted me and I tidied up with the Merkur DE.

I am very surprised things went so well with a dodgy old razor I sharpened for a trial go. I could now see a time when I would shave with a straight if I had the time!

The shave was as good as any I get from Feathers, with the minor cuts and bleeding for inattention!

I think a few shave ready blades are calling me, so I can see the standard I need to meet. I don't think I can do a Murray Carter and only shave with machete's I've sharpened to see what is needed.

I will definitely shave more with my straight, and some economical ones I can pick up, so I can better know what's needed from a sharpening perspective.

I would hope that in time I can offer a sharpening service to Irish str8 edge lads, as I do to Irish Hunters and Kitchen Heroes.

I am not looking for a business, this is a hobby to me. I don't want to be paid. I just hope my other kit covers a lot of steps so this doesn't cost me a fortune! :rolleyes:

****e state!



Method Shaving stuff



Shavette and Razor



Ouchy!





Bleedin' Heck!

MadsL

Currently for knives and stuff I use DMT and Eze-Lap Diamond products,

Will work for razors...

a 1" x 42" belt sander with belts from 80 grit down to 40/20/15/9 micron

Will 'cook' your razor..carbon steel remember, don't get it hot.

and leather stropping belts,

Good stuff

waterstones, arkansas stones, surgical black stone, Edge Pro with stock water stones

Super

Chosera stones (3K/5K and 10K)

Excellent tools for razors, in fact all you need is these 3 stones....


lots of strops and compounds including Starkie Sharp Blue Smurf Poo, green and white buffer compounds, red and black Dovo compounds, 3/1/.5 and .25 micron diamond pastes.

All fantastic tools for razors

I also have access to guys who develop many new products not for sale yet, guys who work up the gear for sale on Chefsknivestogo and Jende Industries for example.

Yep, that'll be grand

I read somewhere that Ireland needs a honemeister, I would like to take that on as a learning thing. If I knew what's needed I can use the gear I have and the guys I know from other obsessive sharpening forums to work out what I need to do to deliver decent shaves.

I'd hoped that was going to be me after some learning curve....but I ended up emigrating...


My best advice would be www.straightrazorplace.com and the honing/stropping forums + the workshop forum. Also get a blade sharpened by Lynn Abrams, he runs SRP - he's the world's honemeister! Will be a great reference edge for you..


Welcome to the obsession!

Deise Musashi

Cheers for that MadsL!

Can I ask what you use for honing? I know some people prefer Shapton or Naniwa stones over the Choseras.

My surgical black needs a lapping, and I forgot I have some King and Ice Bear waterstones (not been freehanding in a while). I have a translucent arkansas stone, and a big black chinese 12000 grit

I also have PSA backed mylar polishing films for the Edge Pro and glass blanks to mount them on and micromesh abrasives in 1500 to 12000 grits.

It looks like I may need to add a coticule or two :cool: They'd be usefeul for knives as well, and I like working on natural stones as well as synthetics and diamonds.

Have you tried any of the sub-micron sprays available like Cubic Boron Nitride or Chromium Oxide? All of my leather strops are bovine, has anyone tried horse or kangaroo strops.

I've also used worn polish tapes, surgical tapes and paper as strops, not had a go on balsa yet.

Thanks for the links, another reason to go OCD on edges! At least razors take up less space than my knife collection...:rolleyes:

hitemfrank

My honing set up is a Naniwa Chosera 1k and a Coticule. After that I usually use some 0.3 micron chrom oxide for a few laps, 0.1 micron Ferrous oxide (both on balsa) and then onto the leather strop.

Now, when I say usually, sometimes I will skip the paste because I just couldn't be bothered (I can be fairly lazy) and I can shave comfortabley on the edge from a coticule.

If you want, send a razor my way that you've honed and I'll try my best to give you some decent feedback. I use a straight razor pretty much every day so hopefully I would be able to give you some feedback in regards to how smooth it is.

With the stuff you already have and what you have available you should be able to put some great edges on razors. There are some differences between honing knives and razors from what I understand (I've not honed a knife so can't say for sure) so it may just be a case of getting some practice in on razors now.


Now the very important question, when can we expect to see you shaving with a knife?

Cheers,
Keith

MadsL

I like natural stones.

My setup/progression is generally

1. 1200grit bevel setter - a King 1200 (which I gave away in Ireland) - should be a getting a Chosera 1k any day now.
Get that to popping arm hair sharp and the rest is easy.

2. Coticule. Stone of the gods..runs 4k with slurry through higher than 8k with just water.

Can shave nicely off a coticule edge but a bit of refinement never goes astray...

3. Thuringian - I have a small vintage boxed Celebrated Water Razor Hone. Puts a nice finish on an edge and I also use it as a refresh stone. Recommend these when they show up on ebay. Be aware they are tiny, but are nice as they fit in the palm of your hand.

4. I have three vintage strops, one of which was NOS with a Chrome Oxide side. It gets about 50 laps on that side and about 100 on the leather.

Generally I look for an edge I can shave with but is also sharp enough to pop my sideburns a 1/4 inch above the root and snick stray stupidly bushy eyebrows (feel like a real badass holding a blade over my eye!!)

MadsL

Deise Musashi wrote: »

All of my leather strops are bovine, has anyone tried horse or kangaroo strops.

Holy grail is horse, particularly shell cordovan - horses ass. Used mainly for high-end handmade shoes and gloves, and archers' finger leather. The Japanese have mastered strop making though and make the world's most expensive strops...Kanayama are incredible, I'd love one.

http://easternsmooth.com/knowledgebase/about-kanayama-cordovan-strops

Talking of strops I found a vintage strop in horrible condition but un-nicked with the original "Tiger Shark strop - for the man who cannot hone" paper label. Can only find one reference to it on the web, so pretty rare I guess. Will restore it when I get around to it...

Deise Musashi

If you want, send a razor my way that you've honed and I'll try my best to give you some decent feedback. I use a straight razor pretty much every day so hopefully I would be able to give you some feedback in regards to how smooth it is.

That would be fantastic! I only have one old straight atm. and it may be banjaxed? Not sure it's supposed to have that smile? The spine is curved also so it may have been made that way? I can give it a sharpen and pop it in the post to you or maybe get a test mule and do the same with that?

The feedback would be invaluable to me in learning what's needed for this application, I've no idea what level of sharp is needed here? Lads on a knife forum I use don't rate Dovo much? Would I be better getting older Sheffield steel ground in Germany? That may just be their national bias though

(A mule is a knife used for trying new stuff, Spyderco do a range of mule knives, all the same size and grind but different steels. It gives us knife knuts a chance to isolate just the steel as the difference in how knives perform.)

There are some differences between honing knives and razors from what I understand

Yea knives can have their own requirements and different grinds, but setting and refining a bevel should be pretty similar, as is the patience to work at each grit until the job is done!

Now the very important question, when can we expect to see you shaving with a knife?

I've played with shaving with a 1095 Izula but if I were going to shave with a knife I might try a very polished Mora flexi knife first! If it happens I will tape it and throw it up here. I know the lads who have used knives and cleavers to shave used very hard Japanese steel to do so. Kitchen knives that can survive five degree per side use in a kitchen are able to take a very refined edge.

I do have a paring knife made by Shinichi Watanabe carbon steel and chisel ground, with a hollow grind at the back of the blade...like a clam shell Japanese razor grind? I have some Gyuto (Cow Sword) size knives from Misono, Watanabe and Hattori. I'd be afraid of losing an ear though!

Holy grail is horse, particularly shell cordovan - horses ass.

I can understand for untreated strops that we are looking for the silicates naturally present to do the work for us. Since I generally use the leather as a substrate for holding abrasive I apply I'm not sure horse butt or shark skin are needed?

The lads on knife forums tell me that mule ass is the best of all, but having seen 200X pics of kangaroo leather I do like the consistency and lack of follicles shown there.

Generally I look for an edge I can shave with but is also sharp enough to pop my sideburns a 1/4 inch above the root and snick stray stupidly bushy eyebrows (feel like a real badass holding a blade over my eye!!)

Gangsta! Unless you slip and end up with an eyebrow scar like a member of Boyzone

I have sharpened knives to pop hair treetopping style, not much use in a hard use knife though :rolleyes: I have a Murray Carter that does this and it's a monster, Hitachi White Paper steel clad and forged by a Master Smith.

Thuringian

I've never heard of this? What grit would it equate to roughly? I know naturals vary a huge amount, does it get a slurry or cut more like an Arkansas stone?

I know my progression for knives can go from 80 grit up in less than double jumps, decent stones in 1000/2000/3000/5000/8000/10000 and 12000 as well as about eight strops with :

diamond in 3/1/.5 and .25 micron
starkie sharp compound on hard backed suede leather
Dovo Red and Black on Veg tanned leather
Green Chromium Oxide
White buffing compound (AlOx?)

and the mylar polishing films in 3000/7000 grits.

The Japanese and US grits aren't equivalent, but I use this table to roughly match the grits against each other.

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/fbbuploads/1316340409-Grit_Table.png

I'm guessing that razor lads don't need me, but if anyone wants their kitchen knives sharpened I am happy to do that.
I use an Edge Pro and a 1" x 42" table belt grinder plus strops to do kitchen stuff.

A few knives I've done on Youtube...http://www.youtube.com/user/1972Musashi?feature=mhee

Thanks for the help and advice lads, hope I can return the favour at some point!

Must get some mule razors now!

MadsL

PM me your address and I'll pop a couple of 'mules' from my restore pile to play with. Send 'em back when you are done and I'll let you know what the edge is like.

hitemfrank

Deise Musashi wrote: »

That would be fantastic! I only have one old straight atm. and it may be banjaxed? Not sure it's supposed to have that smile? The spine is curved also so it may have been made that way? I can give it a sharpen and pop it in the post to you or maybe get a test mule and do the same with that?

Some razors were made with a 'swayback' and the edge will generally follow that. Others have just developed a smile due to honing. Old hones would have developed a dish in them through use and the razors may have got their smile from this.

There are techniques you can use for a smiling blade. Have a look about halfway down this page at the swaying x-stroke. Chances are you've used this stroke for some knives you've sharpened.

Deise Musashi wrote: »

The feedback would be invaluable to me in learning what's needed for this application, I've no idea what level of sharp is needed here? Lads on a knife forum I use don't rate Dovo much? Would I be better getting older Sheffield steel ground in Germany? That may just be their national bias though

With old razors, if it was made in Sheffield or Solingen you should have no problems with the steel. Old Swedish ones too but they can get pricey if you are looking to pick up some cheap blades to practice honing.

Current Dovo razors are fine, they just need to be honed properly after they leave the factory. They leave the factory sharp but not 'shave sharp'.

Like Richard, I'll offer to send you a razor (it's actually one he sent me to practice honing on when I first started). It's an old Sheffield razor and the blade is in good condition. It doesn't look the best but it can take a nice edge.

PM me your address and I'll get it sent tomorrrow or Wednesday.

Deise Musashi

Lads, thanks a lot for your very kind offers and the feedback.

I look forward to hearing what I'm doing wrong and correcting that

Really decent of ye lads,thanks again.

Dramatik

I try to keep it as simple as possibe, I set the bevel on the Naniwa Chosera 1k, then move onto a hard coticule with plenty of slurry, then misty slurry, then just water. Once I'm happy and the razor is popping hair along the full length of the edge, I strop it 40-50 times on linen then finally 80-100 on leather, this method seems to work nicely for me.

Deise Musashi

Thanks for that Dramatik.

Are the coticules fairly consistent in grit then to each other?

I decided to go diamond and synthetic a few years ago as it was driving me nuts trying to decide which scratch patterns from different naturals were finer or coarser.
At least a 1000 grit synthetic will be a given micron average size.

Still a chosera will polish differently from same grit Bear/Ice King/Shapton/Shapton Pro stone/DMT/Atoma and on and on.

Then different steel will react differently to each stone...:rolleyes:

So I picked chosera over shaptons when I looked in to the main contenders, but I still like messing with compounds and substrates for finishing.

Like same grit size CBN on paper or leather, or same grit Diamond and Chromium Oxide on paper/leather?*

* Diamond has a sharper shape, Oxide more rounded, so Oxide should feel smoother for the same grit finish.

Of course razors are mostly high hardness and carbon steels, so may react in another way compared to soft German and French kitchen knives, American hunting knives, Scandi. survival knives or Japanese laminations?

More experiments needed to find a good way to do this, pass away an auld evening anyway. :cool:

MadsL

Personally I love my coti, mostly for the lovely feel but also...and more elegantly put as quoted below; the sheer natural feel of honing on a ROCK that the Romans loved just as much for putting an edge on steel.

Far and away my favorite hone, Belgian coticules are communicative, entirely repellent of metal, given to wear rather level (unlike waterstones), fast enough for most razor-related work, and not terribly difficult to learn. They do require practice, and they rarely yield near-instant excellent results (as does a Norton 4000/8000 stone). They're inappropriate for repairing neglected razors. Though capable, they're much slower at bevel-setting than 1000-2000 grit waterstones/diamond hones. The bottom line, though: for refining/finishing/maintaining properly-beveled razors, they're awesome....what other single hone takes you from rough condition to shaving sharp in 30 minutes? There's good reason folks are cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs for these rocks.

Coticules transcend hype or flavor-of-the-month inertia. I believe choosing to "live the straight razor life" is much about placing equal value on processes themselves versus merely results. The coticule's visceral, dynamic, and rewarding process, according to myself and many others, can't be duplicated by manmade hones. When the (certain) day arrives that there's not enough coticule supply for us to distribute, I'll still believe (to obvious detriment of hones we WILL sell) anyone coming to truly understand their coticule wouldn't choose something else by preference. Whilst hopeful that's many years away, I'm realistic; it isn't.

http://thesuperiorshave.com/Coticules.html

Dramatik

Deise Musashi wrote: »

Thanks for that Dramatik.

Are the coticules fairly consistent in grit then to each other?

Some cut faster and some are better at finishing, because it is natural stone there is variation. Coticule is found sandwitched between rock in a series of folds, so some layers are older than others, I think where the rock is mined also makes a difference. The one that I have is hard and would take all day to set a bevel on a razor but I have heard of people who can set a bevel without too much trouble on their coticule stone.



This's what the Coticle layers look like.