wind turbine course

Agri contractor

has anyone been to imecofarm learing how to build a wind turbine. Looks interesting.

BryanF

That's the first time I've ever seen a wind turbine sold only giving its height:D

nogoodnamesleft

From looking at the website I would have my reservations.

I cannot envisage how the turbine would be highly efficient. Considering that there are no control mechanisms in place in order to regulate the mechanical power (during gusts, high wind speeds) and in order to ensure that the maximum electrical power is generated proportional to wind speed.

How can it be claimed to be highly efficient when the efficiency of the motor employed has not been stated.

What happens when the turbine over speeds? Is there a brake mechanism employed on the device?

The rotor (tri bladed model) in the pictures would spin itself to pieces under centripetal forces in high wind speeds.


From an electrical engineering perspective there are a number of reservations I would have:

Electrical protection - what will happen when a fault occurs.

That turbine cannot be connected to the grid contrary to what they claim on their website. There are grid codes which state the requirement for micro-generation connected to the grid. In the EU is it prohibited to have islanded operation which is connected to the grid (i.e. a generator is prohibited from producing power when the network is experiencing a fault).

Commercial wind turbines employ a power electronics mechanism. When a fault occurs on the mains the power electronic engage the braking mechanism or for larger turbines use pitch regulation to stop producing power.


The course also does not appear to be certified by any organisation.

dalta5billion

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

From looking at the website I would have my reservations.

I cannot envisage how the turbine would be highly efficient. Considering that there are no control mechanisms in place in order to regulate the mechanical power (during gusts, high wind speeds) and in order to ensure that the maximum electrical power is generated proportional to wind speed.

How can it be claimed to be highly efficient when the efficiency of the motor employed has not been stated.

What happens when the turbine over speeds? Is there a brake mechanism employed on the device?

The rotor (tri bladed model) in the pictures would spin itself to pieces under centripetal forces in high wind speeds.


From an electrical engineering perspective there are a number of reservations I would have:

Electrical protection - what will happen when a fault occurs.

That turbine cannot be connected to the grid contrary to what they claim on their website. There are grid codes which state the requirement for micro-generation connected to the grid. In the EU is it prohibited to have islanded operation which is connected to the grid (i.e. a generator is prohibited from producing power when the network is experiencing a fault).

Commercial wind turbines employ a power electronics mechanism. When a fault occurs on the mains the power electronic engage the braking mechanism or for larger turbines use pitch regulation to stop producing power.


The course also does not appear to be certified by any organisation.

Would I be right in thinking that the inverter prevents islanding?

I thought that they only care if the inverter meets Electric Ireland's standards or not...

quentingargan

dalta5billion wrote: »

Would I be right in thinking that the inverter prevents islanding?

I thought that they only care if the inverter meets Electric Ireland's standards or not...

Yes - that's the case. The ESB doesn't ask any details on what is upstream of the inverter. As long as it meets EN50438, the grid is safe.

But am I missing something on the rest of the posts here, or has the website taken down a page describing the turbine?

There are plenty of good DIY turbine projects out there. Generally they use the Hugh Piggott designs and a furling mechanism keeps them safe in high winds. I've known one that has been supplying a household for many years.

There are "City & Guilds" approved wind turbine courses, but I think this is a different sort of a day out, specifically building turbines, whereas the approved courses are intended for professional installers. So it depends what you want.

nogoodnamesleft

quentingargan wrote: »

Yes - that's the case. The ESB doesn't ask any details on what is upstream of the inverter. As long as it meets EN50438, the grid is safe.

But am I missing something on the rest of the posts here, or has the website taken down a page describing the turbine?

There are plenty of good DIY turbine projects out there. Generally they use the Hugh Piggott designs and a furling mechanism keeps them safe in high winds. I've known one that has been supplying a household for many years.

There are "City & Guilds" approved wind turbine courses, but I think this is a different sort of a day out, specifically building turbines, whereas the approved courses are intended for professional installers. So it depends what you want.

I was looking at the following webpage of the site:

http://www.imecofarm.com/Course_Wind_Turbine.htm

It itemises some of the topics of the course.

I would be interested to see what sort of alternator design that they would come up with as its listed in their 3 day syllabus. I am assuming it would be some basic type of PM synchronous generator?

Is there any additional details regards the inverter/power electronics design or operation?

dalta5billion

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

quentingargan wrote: »

Yes - that's the case. The ESB doesn't ask any details on what is upstream of the inverter. As long as it meets EN50438, the grid is safe.

But am I missing something on the rest of the posts here, or has the website taken down a page describing the turbine?

There are plenty of good DIY turbine projects out there. Generally they use the Hugh Piggott designs and a furling mechanism keeps them safe in high winds. I've known one that has been supplying a household for many years.

There are "City & Guilds" approved wind turbine courses, but I think this is a different sort of a day out, specifically building turbines, whereas the approved courses are intended for professional installers. So it depends what you want.

I was looking at the following webpage of the site:

http://www.imecofarm.com/Course_Wind_Turbine.htm

It itemises some of the topics of the course.

I would be interested to see what sort of alternator design that they would come up with as its listed in their 3 day syllabus. I am assuming it would be some basic type of PM synchronous generator?

Is there any additional details regards the inverter/power electronics design or operation?

I'd say it's pretty much the type of magnet-and-coil based stuff like at otherpower.com, which is a great little green power site.

nogoodnamesleft

dalta5billion wrote: »

I'd say it's pretty much the type of magnet-and-coil based stuff like at otherpower.com, which is a great little green power site.

Eh? It would be rather difficult for a synchronous or induction machine to work without magnets or coils.

I was curious as to what type the turbine outlined by that particular website utilised.

dalta5billion

nogoodnamesleft wrote: »

dalta5billion wrote: »

I'd say it's pretty much the type of magnet-and-coil based stuff like at otherpower.com, which is a great little green power site.

Eh? It would be rather difficult for a synchronous or induction machine to work without magnets or coils.

I was curious as to what type the turbine outlined by that particular website utilised.

Hugh Piggot design I think? I meant that you have to set the magnets and coils in resin your self... based on Hugh Piggot's design... I think. I meant it probably wasn't one where you just attach the blades to a DC motor...

Agri contractor

Reading the business post today and I came accross this article on a fellow building turbines www.kre.ie looks like the same design as imecofarm.

Windyman

Agri contractor wrote: »

has anyone been to imecofarm learing how to build a wind turbine. Looks interesting.

Has anybody been to this? looks interesting and might do it myself. I think there are lots of horror stories out there of people buying turbines without international standards.

Is there any case studies published online?

Windyman

quentingargan wrote: »

Yes - that's the case. The ESB doesn't ask any details on what is upstream of the inverter. As long as it meets EN50438, the grid is safe.

But am I missing something on the rest of the posts here, or has the website taken down a page describing the turbine?

There are plenty of good DIY turbine projects out there. Generally they use the Hugh Piggott designs and a furling mechanism keeps them safe in high winds. I've known one that has been supplying a household for many years.

There are "City & Guilds" approved wind turbine courses, but I think this is a different sort of a day out, specifically building turbines, whereas the approved courses are intended for professional installers. So it depends what you want.

Is there a standard or qualification required in Ireland for a micro installer?

quentingargan

Windyman wrote: »

Is there a standard or qualification required in Ireland for a micro installer?

The only requirement is a RECI or similar registration, which is required by ESB.

Windyman wrote: »

I think there are lots of horror stories out there of people buying turbines without international standards.

Yes. Unfortunately though these tests are very expensive to carry out - about €100K for the test, but there was also a lot of cost in preparing the necessary data, installing a turbine on the test site and removing it afterwards.

You are quite right - a lot of cheap turbines, particularly from the far east, had lousy quality standards and blew to smithereens. However the testing regime has taken a sledgehammer to that nut and wiped out most small turbine manufacturers (myself included).

The nett result will be a smaller number of large operators in this market, and probably a lot less innovation. If you change anything substantially in the turbine design, you have to re-test, so tweaking could be very costly:eek:

Windyman

quentingargan wrote: »

The only requirement is a RECI or similar registration, which is required by ESB.



Yes. Unfortunately though these tests are very expensive to carry out - about €100K for the test, but there was also a lot of cost in preparing the necessary data, installing a turbine on the test site and removing it afterwards.

You are quite right - a lot of cheap turbines, particularly from the far east, had lousy quality standards and blew to smithereens. However the testing regime has taken a sledgehammer to that nut and wiped out most small turbine manufacturers (myself included).

The nett result will be a smaller number of large operators in this market, and probably a lot less innovation. If you change anything substantially in the turbine design, you have to re-test, so tweaking could be very costly:eek:

Again - Playing into the big boys hands. Its just doesnt seem economicaly feasible if thats the case. 100k for a test , no wonder people dont do them. There is a skillnet course coming up to explain the international standards where i might get a good idea on price and the ESB are speaking at it.
How come small wind is bigger in the UK?

quentingargan

Windyman wrote: »

How come small wind is bigger in the UK?

Feed in tariff in Ireland 9c
Feed in tariff in UK 31p to 34p
QED;)

Actually, the feed in tariff in Ireland had a top up of 10c for the first 5 years, but that top up has now been discontinued. The UK feed in tariff is probably over-subsidising and will be reviewed downwards. The solar feed in tariff has just been halved, but it is still about 3 times better than what we have here.

Windyman

quentingargan wrote: »

Feed in tariff in Ireland 9c
Feed in tariff in UK 31p to 34p
QED;)

Actually, the feed in tariff in Ireland had a top up of 10c for the first 5 years, but that top up has now been discontinued. The UK feed in tariff is probably over-subsidising and will be reviewed downwards. The solar feed in tariff has just been halved, but it is still about 3 times better than what we have here.

Ok so no incentive. Just one more question and thanks for your help. If i bought a 6kw turbine and got grid connection would it take long to pay for itself? Its my Dad looking to build a turbine at home and i'm doing all his research for him. We certainly dont have money for testing anyway. Maybe a 15k project to pay for a farm project. There was an information day advertised on the Farmers Journal which i'll attend for more info. http://www.iwea.com/index.cfm?page=viewEvent&id=154&year=2012&month=3

Anything else you can suggest?

In your own opinion is it worth it?

quentingargan

Windyman wrote: »

Ok so no incentive. Just one more question and thanks for your help. If i bought a 6kw turbine and got grid connection would it take long to pay for itself? Its my Dad looking to build a turbine at home and i'm doing all his research for him. We certainly dont have money for testing anyway. Maybe a 15k project to pay for a farm project. There was an information day advertised on the Farmers Journal which i'll attend for more info. http://www.iwea.com/index.cfm?page=viewEvent&id=154&year=2012&month=3

Anything else you can suggest?

In your own opinion is it worth it?

I've always maintained that to some extent, renewable energy has non-financial rewards. You have to derive some satisfaction, particularly if you build your own.

As for pay-back (financial) it really depends on how good the wind is on your site. I don't just mean windy, but also that the wind doesn't have turbulence introduced by nearby trees or buildings. Then the other unknown unknown as Rummy would say, is whether you have a constant load, so that you are saving on electricity purchased. For example, if the house is empty all day long, and you are exporting all production, the savings are just 9c. If you are substituting electricity you would have bought, then the saving is 14c.

I also think it is very likely that some sort of replacement for the ESB microgeneration scheme will be introduced with a bit of incentive. There are a few Irish companies in this sector who should be beating down the Minister's door.