Borismaster (New Bus For London) launch delayed by one week . . .

LordSutch

Borismaster launch delayed by one week, now due to take to the streets of London on the 27th of February 2012.
Designed by Heatherwick studios - London, built by Wrightbus of Ballymena (NI), and tested at Millbrook proving ground in Bedford.
Launch delayed > http://www.busandcoach.com/newspage.aspx?id=6489&categoryid=0

If like me, you make frequent visits to London, then one more week won't make any difference in actually getting to ride on the NBFL (Route 38).
Apparently they now have two prototypes ready to go, with another six to be introduced this spring, just on the Hackney route for now . . . . .

macroman

Seen this in the flesh. Mixed opinions on it, hated it to begin with but it grows on you. But I can't see them lasting up to 40 years in service like the Routemasters did.

I don't think the operators will have much choice on it TBH, if they tender for a route designated for NBfL then they have an obligation to buy/lease them, and they haven't the scope to redeploy them to provincial fleets in the UK like how most other London buses are disposed of.

Run_to_da_hills

Being a new UK project and coming up to the Olympics, this thing is more than likely riddled with hidden CCTV cameras and what ever else to keep tabs on people.

The Interior is very authentic and keeping in with the old style.

al28283

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Being a new UK project and coming up to the Olympics, this thing is more than likely riddled with hidden CCTV cameras and what ever else to keep tabs on people.

The Interior is very authentic and keeping in with the old style.

Since when have they hidden the CCTV cameras on london buses? They're clearly visible and even have a screen displaying all the camera feeds

AlekSmart

al28283 wrote: »

Since when have they hidden the CCTV cameras on london buses? They're clearly visible and even have a screen displaying all the camera feeds

It gets worse for r_t_d_h......:eek:

The new bus-specification for Dublin,as specified by the NTA,includes pretty much the exact same system as shown in al28283's photo.

The Dublin version may only utilize the Interior feeds,which can be useful when somebody needs to ascertain if there are seats available upstairs.

The delay to the NBFL appears to centre around the Certification of the vehicle necessary before it can enter revenue service.

So much of this design is simply not covered by existing vehicle legislation,some of which goes straight back to the 19th century,with the result that the "Men from the Ministry" have little in the way of precedent to go on.

Additionally,there is a new certification procedure now in place called "Whole of Vehicle Type Approval" which replaces the previous,vehicle specific,Certificate of Initial Fitness,which requires a far more thorough testing regime.

Conway635

On the subject of CCTV, a positive development on the new order for Dublin Buses is the addition of extra data to the cab camera which will display on the recording when the accelerator, brake, indicator etc is operated by the driver.

This should be greatly welcomed as able to shed light on those cases where "uncommanded acceleration" is at issue following an accident.

I note that union sources within the company are up in arms over this, but I'm sure once they have time to reflect they will realise that it has enormous value in providing an unassailable backup of the driver's account of events.

Just remember how great was the outcry against the bus driver involved in the accident with the LUAS at O'Connell Street, presumed guilty by online majority, and how quickly things changed as soon as the forward facing camera his bus and the bus behind it was released, showing that the driver was in fact proceeding through a green light.

C635

Stevek101

Any more information on these new buses? Sound a lot better than the previous DB spec.

AlekSmart

Conway635 wrote: »

On the subject of CCTV, a positive development on the new order for Dublin Buses is the addition of extra data to the cab camera which will display on the recording when the accelerator, brake, indicator etc is operated by the driver.

C635

I suspect C636,that like most such technological advances,the divil is in the detail.

I rather suspect the issues which will arise are part of the greater debate regarding Data retention and useage,which Run_to_da_Hills touches upon.

Currently,all of the parameters regarding acceleration,braking and control operation are recorded in a number of locations within the Vehicle,Engine and Transmission Electronic Control Units (ECU's).

This latest development gathers the data and superimposes it upon a video feed from an additional cctv camera with,as yet,no admitted parameters to cover the terms of reference under which the data will be utilized.

Whilst such devices are,on balance,positive in terms of general standards improvement,there remain issues around how exactly we handle the interface between the actual technology and the Irish way of doing things.

A good example would be the Balinteer area which features significant stretches of quite obviously inappropriate "Traffic Calming Measures" which directly conflict with the previously agreed methodlogy for installation.

This results in Bus Drivers having to negotiate,what in effect are obstructions,often resulting in compromises having to be made in the areas of comfort or handling.

The problems then arise if such manouveres trigger the automated monitoring elements and result in a RED LIGHT situation,pointing the finger at a possibly diligent and responsible Busdriver being forced to cope with the output of questionably proficient Roads & Traffic engineers.

There is on the other hand an arguement to be made that systems such as Event Data Recording on Road Passenger Vehicles actually brings the skill and grading of Busdrivers up to that of Commercial Pilots who have had such elements on board for decades now in the form of Cockpit Voice Recorders and Flight Data Recorders.

It's all part of a huge and rather sudden spurt in Technology now engulfing the Bus industry worldwide,whether in terms of propulsion,transmission or electronics which at the end of the day is intended to leave us all with a better experience of Public Transport.

At the moment,the Jury is out of the room,so the Public Gallery can only wait n see.

foggy_lad

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Being a new UK project and coming up to the Olympics, this thing is more than likely riddled with hidden CCTV cameras and what ever else to keep tabs on people.

The Interior is very authentic and keeping in with the old style.

More likely to be riddled with issues due to its hurried release which will not be allowed surface until after the Olympics.

LordSutch

Stevek101 wrote: »

Any more information on these new buses?

Diesel-Electric-Hybrid drive, Siemens electric powertrain with Cummins ISBe 4.5 litre generator under the stairs. Three sets of doors, rear hop on-hop off platform (with part time conductor), two staircases, LED lighting inside & out, WiFi equipped, passenger capacity 87, Air conditioning, wheelchair ramp, treadmaster flooring, GPS diesel engine shut off (in pollution sensitive areas), excellent turning circle for such a long 11.2m bus.

Sounds brilliant in theory, roll on the 27th (February).

Lapin

That armrest in the OP's fifth image looks very uncomfortable and slightly lethal.

AlekSmart

Stevek101 wrote: »

Any more information on these new buses? Sound a lot better than the previous DB spec.

The BAC vehicles will be the latest version of the Volvo B9TL range.

No great departures from the tried and trusted norm in terms of powertrain or mechanical components except for the replacement of the hydraulic engine-cooling fan with a more flexible multi electric fan system.
The new versions will be to Euro5 emission specification.

The bodywork for the majority of the vehicles will be the Wrights Gemini product,already in BAC service as the VG.

Passenger seating is expected to be individual STER 6MS seats similar to those fitted to the existing VT fleet.

http://www.ster.com.pl/en/menu-pl.html

The major difference here will be double-doors with a small number of the order having an extra "Buggy" space opposite the centre door on a trial basis.

The majority of differences are cosmetic and include LED Daytime Running Lights and side marker lights.

Jehuty42

AlekSmart wrote: »

The BAC vehicles will be the latest version of the Volvo B9TL range.

No great departures from the tried and trusted norm in terms of powertrain or mechanical components except for the replacement of the hydraulic engine-cooling fan with a more flexible multi electric fan system.
The new versions will be to Euro5 emission specification.

The bodywork for the majority of the vehicles will be the Wrights Gemini product,already in BAC service as the VG.

Passenger seating is expected to be individual STER 6MS seats similar to those fitted to the existing VT fleet.

http://www.ster.com.pl/en/menu-pl.html

The major difference here will be double-doors with a small number of the order having an extra "Buggy" space opposite the centre door on a trial basis.

The majority of differences are cosmetic and include LED Daytime Running Lights and side marker lights.

Double-axle B9TL like the VG, or tri-axle like the VT?

AlekSmart

Jehuty42 wrote: »

Double-axle B9TL like the VG, or tri-axle like the VT?

At this point the major part of the order is for standard double-axle vehicles.

The specifications of tri-axle vehicles,if any,are as yet not known.

LordSutch

LT1 - LT8 will all be double axel buses, although Boris himself hinted that the NBFL will be the 1st of a small family of Hybrids based on this model. Possibly a single decker version? + a smaller double decker 10.4m (two door, rear staircase only)? All depends if Boris is voted in again I guess?

LXFlyer

Lord Sutch - I think you're getting confused - all of the latest queries have been about Dublin Bus' new order - not London!!

LordSutch

Dublin bus? Oops!

Some more Borismaster chat would be nice )

LordSutch

Borisbus (NBFL) LT1 finally hits the streets of London today, but not without a few glitches :cool:

Click Link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17181064

Click Link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/9109142/New-Routemaster-bus-takes-to-the-streets.html

Click Link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/interactive/2012/feb/27/routemaster-new-buses-boris-johnson-london-interactive

Click Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_9698000/9698602.stm

dowlingm

Borismasters for Cork, they're the right colour already!

LordSutch

dowlingm wrote: »

Borismasters for Cork, they're the right colour already!

How about a 'two tone' Nottingham City Borismaster?
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8435/7980617401_8291063729_z.jpg

Or a nice cream Sheffield Borismaster?
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8252/8478905501_5c6c6542c7_z.jpg

How about a BorisMaisie Lothian Borismaster?
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8146/7606250414_6d4d60f036_z.jpg

Or maybe even a 'triple axel' Berlin Borismaster?
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8007/7552187008_a99371dba1_z.jpg

Cookie_Monster

The first two actually look really well.

Going Forward

Yes the first two actually look much better than the actual red thing!!

The last one is brutal.

MGWR

LordSutch wrote: »

How about a 'two tone' Nottingham City Borismaster?

Or a nice cream Sheffield Borismaster?

How about a BorisMaisie Lothian Borismaster?

Or maybe even a 'triple axle' Berlin Borismeister?

All of the above (even the less pleasant ones) make the idea of seeing one in present-day DB logos painful.

Seems like this project was a true vanity exercise anyhow.

LordSutch

600 in the pipeline over the next three years for London.

Route 24 to be the 1st London route to convert 100% to Borismasters (June 2013).

http://thebuspeople.co.uk/?p=2197

bk

Going Forward wrote: »

The last one is brutal.

It may look brutal, but it is one of the best designed (operationally) buses in the world.

They have massive capacity, 128 passengers. Triple doors and two stairs with the doors placed directly in front of the doors to maximise boarding flow.

You board at the front door, go directly up the front stairs and when leaving you use the stairs at the back of the bus and go directly out the back door.

Leads to very fast boarding times on one of the highest capacity buses in the world. Yes maybe ugly, but all very German, well designed and efficient!!

We would be so lucky to have such buses and such a setup here in Ireland.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

It may look brutal, but it is one of the best designed (operationally) buses in the world.

They have massive capacity, 128 passengers. Triple doors and two stairs with the doors placed directly in front of the doors to maximise boarding flow.

You board at the front door, go directly up the front stairs and when leaving you use the stairs at the back of the bus and go directly out the back door.

Leads to very fast boarding times on one of the highest capacity buses in the world. Yes maybe ugly, but all very German, well designed and efficient!!

We would be so lucky to have such buses and such a setup here in Ireland.

I have become a very strong fan of the Wright Bus for London since I first encountered it.

The asthetics are,as with every man-made design,open to debate,but the reality is that TfL,Wrights and The Heatherwick Studio have really pushed at the boundaries of Bus Design here.

The very principle of a old style,long established Bodybuilder such as Wrights,being able to take on board an outside non-bus designer such as Heatherwick is of itself a major advance in Bus design.

The Wrights product has been returning some highly impressive in-service availability and performance figures which show every prospect of improving as the lighter production vehicles enter service.

I believe that this vehicle will be far more significant in the Public Transport world than even it's designers thought possible.

As it stands,TfL (The owners of the design rights) have had many enquiries and requests for inspection visits from a wide cross-section of the Public Transport world.

But to return to bk's points on the efficiency of German PT operations,I feel that we,as a society,are simply not amenable to the type of conduct which the Germanic peoples accept so readily.

I would ardently wish we were,but alas it is not part of what we regard as beneficial. :mad:

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

But to return to bk's points on the efficiency of German PT operations,I feel that we,as a society,are simply not amenable to the type of conduct which the Germanic peoples accept so readily.

I see what you are saying, but I respectfully disagree. Once we see the benefit of something we are pretty quick to embrace it.

I think it is more of an issue of DB's fears about possible fare evasion and the court issue about insurance for operating dual/triple door buses.

Really don't see any reason why these couldn't work in Ireland. To be honest their design actually psychologically leads you to using them in an efficient manner.

The front stairs faces forward directly from the front entry door and the rear stairs dumps you directly out the rear door. With Irish people very use to always using the front door, it very naturally leads to the correct flow. People can easily see if downstairs is full and go directly upstairs. And then they would naturally go downstairs at the back due to people coming in the front.

I think the new Dublin Bus are a bad design, the rare door is far behind the stairs leading people to more naturally use the front door to leave.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

I see what you are saying, but I respectfully disagree. Once we see the benefit of something we are pretty quick to embrace it.

I think the new Dublin Bus are a bad design, the rare door is far behind the stairs leading people to more naturally use the front door to leave.

I think we can agree to disagree with safety....:D

I would agree with you on the design aspects of the GT class Centre Door,however as with much else the specification tends to be dictated by factors which are extraneous to the issue.

It seems that the specifying agency,the NTA,were more concerned with maximising the Disabled Spaces and lower saloon seating than with flow patterns,which has left us with a particularly arkward situation to solve.

My own belief is that mainstream Public Transport has a finite capacity to be "Disabled Accessible" before that concept starts impinging upon it's ability to cater for the non-disabled masses.

From my own perspective,Dwell Time at Stops is THE single most significant issue effecting BAC core services,however I have yet to hear any NTA or BAC personage even mention it's existence.

The first step to solving any problem,is to admit to it's existence...and there the issue lies...:p

joegriffinjnr

Spotted one of these in town yesterday....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/km_edinburgh/8585825055/

AlekSmart

joegriffinjnr wrote: »

Spotted one of these in town yesterday....

http://www.flickr.com/photos/km_edinburgh/8585825055/

Joe,I would not at all surprised if WBfL (WrightBus for London) made an appearance in Dublin fairly shortly.

Whilst many of the designs detractors focus upon capacity issues and similar traditional factors,the reality is that the Urban Transport sector now has new and far more diverse issues to consider.

By far and away the largest issue is emissions (of rapidly and constantly changing types) and this is one area where WBfL is performing strongly and exceeding it's design targets by quite a bit.

With all major PT operators and administrative agencies now tied into World Wide schemes to reduce or eliminate these,the designs which can effectively and affordably do this will have to be assessed,whether we like their aesthetics or not.

I would imagine that TfL and the NTA will be more than happy to share their thoughts on this one,and for sure a demonstration visit is possible...without having to leave the island too !!!!

MGWR

The Borismaster made it to New York City for real, with Prince Harry and David Cameron on board.

LordSutch

Thanks for that MGWR, so it looks like they really are going for sales in the US with the NBFL/Borismaster. Realistically it can only function in a City environment due to its technical spec, so I guess New York is their 1st target for sales.



Sadly I don't think the 'Three doors' would go down too well in Dublin, hence I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing a Dublin version of the NBFL/Borismaster, unless of coures they redesign it, with just one door up front, as per this pic from Post#29 http://www.flickr.com/photos/km_edinburgh/8585825055/

AlekSmart

LordSutch wrote: »

Thanks for that MGWR, so it looks like they really are going for sales in the US with the NBFL/Borismaster. Realistically it can only function in a City environment due to its technical spec, so I guess New York is their 1st target for sales.



Sadly I don't think the 'Three doors' would go down too well in Dublin, hence I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing a Dublin version of the NBFL/Borismaster, unless of coures they redesign it, with just one door up front, as per this pic from Post#29 http://www.flickr.com/photos/km_edinburgh/8585825055/

Interesting to note that the bus pictured in NYC has no opening windows,which suggests it is fully Air Conditioned,indicating a significant "Americanization" of the NBfL for this trip.

LordSutch

AlekSmart wrote: »

Interesting to note that the bus pictured in NYC has no opening windows,which suggests it is fully Air Conditioned,indicating a significant
"Americanization" of the NBfL for this trip.

The NBFL has never had opening windows!

Its always had a form of Air conditioning/Climate control which is very much an integral part of the design of the NBFL/Borismaster.

See the grills above the rear doors, that's where the climate control system lives . . .

AlekSmart

LordSutch wrote: »

The NBFL has never had opening windows!

Its always had a form of Air conditioning/Climate control which is very much an integral part of the design of the NBFL/Borismaster.

See the grills above the rear doors, that's where the climate control system lives . . .

Sorry,My bad,your lordship !!

My several NBfL trips so far never flagged ventilation as an issue,so Wrights appear to have sorted this old-chesnut,although it will take a London Mid-Summer to really prove it.

Air Conditioning on Urban Buses has always been a huge problem for engineers and designers,even in Dublin,as the 1966 Atlantean introduction proved .

Urban Bus design is becoming a highly complex area,with issues such as climate control assuming stand-alone significance.

The main problem is the knock-on effects of the new technologies being utilized,such as refrigerants and compressors.

Volvo/Alexander's,for example,faced substantial and unexpected problems with their Enviro Tri-Axle order for Las Vegas,which after substantial work was deemed to comply with the USA's strict EPA requirements...however,when they tested the MASSIVE Air Conditioning pack required for Las V's 100 degree temperature norms,the passing noise test meters flew off the end of the scale,such was the roar from the Aior-Con packs.

The Volvo/Alexander drawing boards were overheating in attempts to engineer a solution,but they succeeded and the vehicles are performing today !

But,it's still sad that the NEW Bus for London does'nt have quarter-drop winding windows of the type to be found on a few of the remaining RM's ...:)

MGWR

LordSutch wrote: »

The NBFL has never had opening windows!

Its always had a form of Air conditioning/Climate control which is very much an integral part of the design of the NBFL/Borismaster.

See the grills above the rear doors, that's where the climate control system lives . . .

That would have to be altered for the USA. Most buses (although not all) with air conditioning over there also have opening windows; the New York MTA certainly has openable windows on all modern buses. Kinda helps in the case of air-conditioning failure on a day when it is, for example, 35°C outside with 100% relative humidity...

murphaph

MGWR wrote: »

That would have to be altered for the USA. Most buses (although not all) with air conditioning over there also have opening windows; the New York MTA certainly has openable windows on all modern buses. Kinda helps in the case of air-conditioning failure on a day when it is, for example, 35°C outside with 100% relative humidity...

Indeed. The buses in Berlin have air conditioning but the windows can be opened with a key by the driver should the system fail. The Boris bus is really a copy of the standard Berlin double decker by the way, just a bit shorter.

testarossa40

At risk of causing some forehead-slapping, might I point out that the "New York Borismaster", being quite clearly a right-hand drive, is hardly indicative of a US sales push... For instance I recall that KDs that were destined for overseas demonstrations were built as LHDs.

AlekSmart

testarossa40 wrote: »

At risk of causing some forehead-slapping, might I point out that the "New York Borismaster", being quite clearly a right-hand drive, is hardly indicative of a US sales push... For instance I recall that KDs that were destined for overseas demonstrations were built as LHDs.

Yes indeed,This is,I suspect,just some clever marketing assistance to the broader UK Business in the manner of the original Routemaster visit 40 years ago...?

However,the NBfL manages to have that highly individual (and marketable) uniquely London Bus cachet..fair play to both TfL and Wrights for getting the Industry well up a notch or two in the Public Eye ...;)

MGWR

testarossa40 wrote: »

At risk of causing some forehead-slapping, might I point out that the "New York Borismaster", being quite clearly a right-hand drive, is hardly indicative of a US sales push... For instance I recall that KDs that were destined for overseas demonstrations were built as LHDs.

Yes, and some Atlanteans ran in NYC that were left-hand drive as well. (This one was on Fifth Avenue, headed for Penn Station.)

I've heard rumours that the Atlanteans didn't last in Manhattan because Irish-American bus mechanics, raised on old prejudices, refused to maintain British-built buses. But then again, double-deckers didn't last too long after the MTA takeover of formerly private companies such as Fifth Avenue Coach...

AlekSmart

MGWR wrote: »

Yes, and some Atlanteans ran in NYC that were left-hand drive as well. (This one was on Fifth Avenue, headed for Penn Station.)

I've heard rumours that the Atlanteans didn't last in Manhattan because Irish-American bus mechanics, raised on old prejudices, refused to maintain British-built buses. But then again, double-deckers didn't last too long after the MTA takeover of formerly private companies such as Fifth Avenue Coach...

It's equally incredible to realize that one of the largest overseas fleets of Atlanteans was in Baghdad of all places !!!!

Our own Bombardier plant produced a LHD Rolls-Royce engined vehicle which it despatched to Iraq,where it arrived just in time for the 1st Iran-Iraq war

LordSutch

Today was the 1st day of the NBFL taking over a full London route!

Route 24 in London now has 27 Borismasters all to itself