New job is VB.Net

dazberry

From a development perspective:

Started a new job recently, a lot of positives, good people in the office (so far), relaxed atmosphere, casual, technology focused, code base not perfect but not sh1te, 20 minute commute, and all a breath of fresh air coming from finance with I always fuppin' hated

But everything about the job was C# (from job title to requirements), until I sat down and looked at the codebase, and it's 90% VB.Net.

Have been coding in VB.Net the last few days, and while not awful (surprisingly), I think there's a novelty factor at play here that'll wear off pretty quickly (already balked at a few things). Boss says it's all old stuff which most likely won't be rewritten, but it's all core product FFS, so I don't know how it's seen as old stuff???

So the question is how long would you give it? Given the positives I'd like to give it a while, but don't want to be writing VB.Net (vs2005) in two years time, still early days so want to let it pan out, all things being equal would you bale, give it 6 months, play it by ear? any opinions?

Thanks,

D.

Trojan

Sounds like a bait and switch.

Could be a breach of contract - talk to a lawyer if you want to go that route - but unless it's a bad environment* stick it out for a couple of months and see what's happening around you. There could be some super projects in the pipeline, an internal transfer might be on the cards, or something like that.

That said, you're right to keep an eye on things, it's easy to let your coding skills go stale very quickly.

* forgive the pun

Mort5000

Is there anything in the contract about being a c# only developer?
Or the ratio of c to vb?
Do any of the other devs in the team have any solid ideas about the direction of the product?

Seems there are a number of other positives about the place that should keep you going.
vb.net is fine.

Assess your happiness every few weeks over the next few months.
Then go and chat to the project lead if you're still unhappy.
If still no changes, find another job.

srsly78

Both use .net, so same framework. If you learn .net via vb, you can use same knowledge with c#.

Still won't be able to tell your mates what language you use tho.

Mort5000

srsly78 wrote: »

Still won't be able to tell your mates what language you use tho.

Hahahah. Cheeky.

Earthhorse

VB.net has a pretty undeserved reputation in my opinion. It's fine. Only thing you need to worry about is that your future prospects may be impacted by that aforementioned reputation.

I understand you feel a little cheated given what you were told in the interview but if it's a good crew then there's plenty of other things you can focus on that'll look good on a CV.

Mort5000

On a certain job search site right now: 42 vb.net jobs, 266 c# jobs.
I think that it the main issue with vb.net.

The market undeservedly perceives it the same way it perceived vb6, and seems to think c# == c == c++, giving that magic little letter 'c' serious power and rep.

Earthhorse

Sure, and that's an important consderation; but he can always do what they did and say he's been working in a c# environment.

If he knows he can code in c# the next time he's going job hunting he can just refresh his memory before the interview; it shouldn't be too hard to change mindset. And he can always use c# for personal projects.

dazberry

Earthhorse wrote: »

If he knows he can code in c# the next time he's going job hunting he can just refresh his memory before the interview; it shouldn't be too hard to change mindset. And he can always use c# for personal projects.

I started looking to move into C# back in 2006, I drank ate and slept the stuff, but the day job was Delphi and couldn't get a look in anywhere. Finally last year I got a C# contract (vs2008, WCF, Entity Framework, LINQ) in another financial. Would have renewed only for this job came up, so while delighted to be out of financials, I'm pretty p1ssed that it's not what it said on the tin :mad:

D.

COYW

OP, this sounds like a job that I turned down just before xmas. The job, which came to my attention through an agency, was aimed at the C# market but on interviewing, it was clear that there was very little C# in use in the company. I aimed to bring topics relating to C# into play during the technical interview to see what the story was on it but my attempts were snuffed out.

If I was in your shoes, I would give it a few months. No point in walking away, as it would leave a black mark on your CV.

srsly78

You can use all of this (vs2008, WCF, Entity Framework, LINQ) with vb these days right? Language really doesn't matter that much. Daily rate matters :pac:

shootermacg

I code in both, the difference -None whatsoever. came from a java background and started in VB.NET, then switched to c#, really nothing much in the difference, in fact VB.NET is a lot more relaxed in many ways.
Using the VS editor, you don't have to declare keywords like dim etc, the IDE will put them in for you. Just thank the lord you aren't programming in Delphi or some other retarded language.

I find it hard to believe employers stress c# or vb.net in their adds, should just state .NET and leave it at that.

johnsmith13

I work in a company where our core product is vb.net but when creating a new module it is our decision to write it in C# or VB.

I have found that by knowing VB i can easily write C# too.

Most of the times we choose VB but are have introduced a lot of C#, why dont you start writing new stuff in C#.

DublinWriter

shootermacg wrote: »

Just thank the lord you aren't programming in Delphi or some other retarded language.

Delphi? Retarded?!? You are aware that the guy who designed c# was also the chief architect of Delphi before he was poached by Micro$oft?

shootermacg

DublinWriter wrote: »

Delphi? Retarded?!? You are aware that the guy who designed c# was also the chief architect of Delphi before he was poached by Micro$oft?

Designed c#? Java Clone.... Bit mad at Delphi, just inherited a collosal Delphi 7 app. Been using VS2010 and now having to use the D7 IDE is a right pain in the arse, I can honestly say I like nothing about Delphi, but that's personal taste, I'm not starting a debate. I'd also hate to have to go back to VB.

dazberry

shootermacg wrote: »

Designed c#? Java Clone....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anders_Hejlsberg

shootermacg wrote: »

Bit mad at Delphi, just inherited a collosal Delphi 7 app. Been using VS2010 and now having to use the D7 IDE is a right pain in the arse, I can honestly say I like nothing about Delphi, but that's personal taste, I'm not starting a debate. I'd also hate to have to go back to VB.

You have my sympathies. Delphi 7 was a fine IDE, back in 2002, the current version (XE2) is 16. It was an a very solid release and was much loved in Delphi circles for many years, given the low quality of some of the subsequent releases. Last few releases have been pretty good, and IDE would be much more VS like now (although some of the old hats still whine about it :rolleyes:)

Actually did a lot of good work in D7, not the standard component dropping carp :mad:, had a little ORM and a dependency injection framework going, but D7 lacked a lot of modern language features that in the end greatly frustrated me. Currently release is fantastic, can target Win32, 64, OS/X and IOS - have my own license just a pity no jobs in it.

Last job had a little D2009 (v12) in it, decent version, but the codebase (originally from D6 circa 2001) was pure muck, badly designed from the ground up and very poorly developed over the last 10+ years, glad to be away from that.

Not loving the VB stuff, C# (or good Delphi) is so much more elegant **IMO**

D.

shootermacg

http://news.cnet.com/2008-1082-817522.html

yawha

Article from 2002? lol!

shootermacg

yawha wrote: »

Article from 2002? lol!

January 2002 C# Unveiled, why would an article from 2002 be out of place?

conor.hogan.2

shootermacg wrote: »

January 2002 C# Unveiled, why would an article from 2002 be out of place?

What is the point of posting the article?

yawha

It's 10 years old, it's written in the context of the time. C# and .NET have had multiple evolving versions since then and particularly with the addition of Linq, has really changed pretty drastically.

DublinWriter

shootermacg wrote: »

Designed c#? Java Clone.... Bit mad at Delphi, just inherited a collosal Delphi 7 app. Been using VS2010 and now having to use the D7 IDE is a right pain in the arse, I can honestly say I like nothing about Delphi, but that's personal taste, I'm not starting a debate. I'd also hate to have to go back to VB.

I'll hazard a guess and say that you're working for a software company as opposed to developing software in-house.

I'd gladly swap VS2005/2010 for D7 anyday. VS is now about 1gb+ of bloatware and a dog-slow IDE, all in order to develop for a proprietary platform. At least with the latest Delphi I can cross-compile native Win32, .net and Mac OS apps.

rgmmg

If it's any consolation, I can only use VBA in my job. Would love the chance to use any .NET languages but no chance alas (am a business graduate 10+ years ago so not a technical background).

I did a Java course a while back but can never get past the technical speak part of an interview. Why don't they place more emphasis on doing things rather than talking about them in interviews? After all, if you don't know how to do something programatically do you not just google it?

neil_hosey

anyone who says vb.net is inferior to c# really doesnt know what they are talking about. they both compile to the same IL.

stevenmu

After all, if you don't know how to do something programatically do you not just google it?

Well yes, but you need to be able to talk about it during the interview to demonstrate that you know exactly what needs to be googled

shootermacg

stevenmu wrote: »

Well yes, but you need to be able to talk about it during the interview to demonstrate that you know exactly what needs to be googled

Haha, I'm starting to hate google, I believe it places all these holes in your knowledge of a subject, saying that I do make a lot of use of it.

Interviews, I've found ok mainly, I just flash my 1H, spout some generic dribble about why this is the job for me and give a little work history. Haven't really been asked to whiteboard anything at all other than some basic syntax crap and answer some OO stuff, which a first year would know.

srsly78

First years might know how to write heapsort, but most of the rest of us have probably forgotten

Giblet

neil_hosey wrote: »

anyone who says vb.net is inferior to c# really doesnt know what they are talking about. they both compile to the same IL.

yield return a long running enumeration.

shootermacg

Giblet wrote: »

yield return a long running enumeration.

Yield is just a C# language feature which gets compiled into simple IL code by the C# compiler, but definitely saves a bit of coding ^ ^.

Giblet

You might as well just use Reflection.Emit for everything

yawha

neil_hosey wrote: »

anyone who says vb.net is inferior to c# really doesnt know what they are talking about. they both compile to the same IL.

Um, everything eventually gets compiled to the same machine code eventually. What something gets intermediately compiled to has no bearing on anything.

dazberry

Righteo lads, almost 6 months later....

... and in that time I've worked on two code bases, both vb.net, one .net 2.0 (mostly a 1.1 conversion) and the other .net 1.1.

Can't see this going anywhere quickly, just bug fixes and feature requests on top of what is there... Time to start looking around again

D.

Trojan

Trojan wrote: »

Sounds like a bait and switch.

The silver lining is you should get a pay rise when you move.

(And don't believe them when they tell you they'll put you on more interesting projects when they get your letter of resignation)

MagicRon

dazberry wrote: »

Righteo lads, almost 6 months later....

... and in that time I've worked on two code bases, both vb.net, one .net 2.0 (mostly a 1.1 conversion) and the other .net 1.1.

Can't see this going anywhere quickly, just bug fixes and feature requests on top of what is there... Time to start looking around again

D.

Where are you based?

DublinWriter

dazberry wrote: »

just bug fixes and feature requests on top of what is there...

...welcome to I.T.

Colonel Panic

Well yeah, but better to do bug fixes and features on top of a more up to date code base if you can help it!

Earthhorse

Could you update the code base to something more recent? Might be a nice little project for you if you're finding it easy.

Anyway, you gave it a shot and that's enough so if you're not feeling it then start looking around.

dazberry

Trojan wrote: »

The silver lining is you should get a pay rise when you move.

I'm on an okay daily rate (direct), I've no complaints in that regard. I made big bucks on a (direct) Delphi contract for a few years, but gave it up in the end as the technology was so out of demand I felt that I had to move on. Disappointed to be using old technologies again - don't need to be leading edge but want to be more relevant (and interesting).

MagicRon wrote: »

Where are you based?

Dublin 8.

DublinWriter wrote: »

...welcome to I.T.

Tell me about it. Did i mention that not long after I started the senior guy left, who was the only guy left after the mass exodus of '08. All then landed on my shoulders. Welcome to sh(I).T

Colonel Panic wrote: »

Well yeah, but better to do bug fixes and features on top of a more up to date code base if you can help it!

I don't really like the code base as is. While there was efforts when it was originally written in the mid-90s to layer the code base, putting all your data access classes in a class library with data somewhere in the name does not a data access layer make. Apparently there used to be shouting matches about such things in the past /sigh/. I've struggled with poor encapsulation and some weird and unexpected state management. The design then seems to push a lot of logic back into the UI layer with never ending IF THEN ENDIFs, it makes vb.net look very bloated and verbose when in reality even C# on top of these class libraries would suffer the same faith.

Earthhorse wrote: »

Could you update the code base to something more recent? Might be a nice little project for you if you're finding it easy.

Some work has been done but there are a couple of reasons we can't run with it at the moment. But that still leaves 1.1 era code and for instance a funky so called data access layer. My initial urge was to work off -radar and bring stuff back in, but I've enough of this stuff during the day to want to work on it in the evenings...

D.

Earthhorse

dazberry wrote: »

My initial urge was to work off -radar and bring stuff back in, but I've enough of this stuff during the day to want to work on it in the evenings...

I hear ya. At the start of the year I was dying to redesign one of the databases we use but knew I wouldn't get time for it during 9 to 5. It's somewhat easier to picture yourself doing these things than to come home after a day of programming and want to do more.