lack of a certified Combi Box - but is two boxes always going to be the way to go?

liamtech

So its over 6 months since Saorview officially launched. Before that it was on trial for over 6 months.

Obviously there are many who will simply buy a certified Saorview terrestrial Box, and have no interest in British Satellite FTA/Freesat Channels.

Many more will make do with partially compatible Combi boxes that lack MHEG5. I can certainly understand this and the Ariva 120 seems to be the Box of choice - cant fault it for anything other than the usual suspects - 7 Day EPG for UKTV, and no MHEG5.

But realistically is a one box solution ever going to arrive or be the ideal solution?

Even a Fully certified Combi box will more than likely not have a 7 day EPG for Freesat and will certainly not auto-tune - the only solution for EPG that i can see is for a box that receives its EPG data via the internet. But for true compatibility i genuinely think its probable that two boxes is going to be the only way to go. (many have stated this before)

Obviously we cant speculate what may be around the corner - Saorview although verifying that there may be several combi units undergoing tests for certification, they certainly are keeping quiet as to what these units are and when they will arrive.

At this stage the best advice seems to be a Freesat Box coupled with a Saorview Box - Those of us who understand the in's and out's of both services have probably already adopted the second box idea - of course the possibility of a Freesat box and a Saorview TV is also a runner - but in terms of true PVR ability - with a twin tuner? the TV option is less tan ideal...

The main question i am posting is this- is there ANY chance of a one box wonder? or are two Individual Certified products always going to be the BEST and possibly ONLY solution for COMPLETE and reliable compatibility?

My reason for starting this thread is that many including myself have been asked what the ideal single box solution is? and in all honesty none exists at this point. But will a solution EVER EXIST?

What do we reckon

Sam Russell

A Freesat box should be able to get Saorsat, and this might be the only real solution, but may require a hack of the software to integrate the two EPGs.

I do not think it possible to make a PVR that has FOUR tuners. No other market is likely to need it.

lawhec

The main problem is not really Saorview certification, but Freesat certification. I just don't see Freesat certifying a receiver which is designed to be targeted at customers outside the UK for various reasons. Of course they can't stop certified receivers being used outside the UK if the viewer has a strong enough signal from 28 east, but they're unlikely to entertain combo boxes that aren't aimed at the UK market.

The only even small realistic hope would be a receiver that is Freeview & Freesat certified be taken by the manufacturer to comply with other DTT transmission platforms including Saorview - however it might be another matter for the manufacturer to promote Freesat capabilities alongside Saorview. The fact that no such Freeview/Freesat STB exists right now, nor is there any sign of one becoming available means that only TVs with integrated tuners with the right certifications and a bit of leeway in the software could achieve it.

I do not think it possible to make a PVR that has FOUR tuners. No other market is likely to need it.

There already is one that exists in Australia for Austar's PVR provision as where in the main cities Foxtel by satellite carry the metropolitan networks for each city, Austar don't in the regional areas it serves therefore local broadcasters can only be received terrestrially. These receivers have two satellite and two terrestrial tuners.

liamtech

lawhec wrote: »

The main problem is not really Saorview certification, but Freesat certification. I just don't see Freesat certifying a receiver which is designed to be targeted at customers outside the UK for various reasons. Of course they can't stop certified receivers being used outside the UK if the viewer has a strong enough signal from 28 east, but they're unlikely to entertain combo boxes that aren't aimed at the UK market.

The only even small realistic hope would be a receiver that is Freeview & Freesat certified be taken by the manufacturer to comply with other DTT transmission platforms including Saorview - however it might be another matter for the manufacturer to promote Freesat capabilities alongside Saorview. The fact that no such Freeview/Freesat STB exists right now, nor is there any sign of one becoming available means that only TVs with integrated tuners with the right certifications and a bit of leeway in the software could achieve it.

There already is one that exists in Australia for Austar's PVR provision as where in the main cities Foxtel by satellite carry the metropolitan networks for each city, Austar don't in the regional areas it serves therefore local broadcasters can only be received terrestrially. These receivers have two satellite and two terrestrial tuners.

VERY INTERESTING - as a matter of interest i know australia is using MHEG5 - dare i ask the question are these boxes MHEG5?

watty

They are pointless as they are not Freesat Boxes. Also there are other strange aspects about Australian TV. I think they may use MPEG2 for Terrestrial HD!

Since most of the channels are on Satellite and "ordinary people" have difficulty with editing Transponders, rescanning and then deleting the "junk" is tedious, the most important aspect is true "Freesat HD" which needs a lot more than MHEG5.

So the highest usability is either two PVR boxes (Saorview PVR not out yet) or a "Freesat HD" PVR box patched to have Saorsat channels (no TV3 or 3E in short to medium term), which the patch does exist, using a dual feed dish. A true Combo "Freesat HD" PVR would be nice, but the closest you will get are media centres and expensive Linux PVRs that use only the EPG part of Freesat (still editing Transponders, rescanning and then deleting the "junk").

lawhec

liamtech wrote: »

VERY INTERESTING - as a matter of interest i know australia is using MHEG5 - dare i ask the question are these boxes MHEG5?

I haven't seen any of these receivers working with my own eyes but if they are like other Austar and Foxtel receivers I've seen their satellite capabilities are crippled even more than for Sky as you can't even do a manual tune on them (they also tend to lease receivers unlike Sky who will "sell" them to you). I'd reckon the terrestrial end has some scope for manual tuning due to the various differences in regional broadcasters, but that would probably be it.

MHEG5 is used for Freeview approved receivers in Australia, but Austar AFAIK uses OpenTV the same as Sky over here. In fact the remote controls for Sky, Austar and Foxtel are nearly identical except for branding. The Freesat/Saorsat equivalent in Australia is VAST, which is replacing the Optus Auroa platform as DSO continues over there (it's also a free-to-view scheme as certain commercial channels are limited to certain regions, and you have to apply formally for the service which determines what channels are available to you, you just can't pick up a receiver and viewing card in a supermarket).

STB

liamtech wrote: »

VERY INTERESTING - as a matter of interest i know australia is using MHEG5 - dare i ask the question are these boxes MHEG5?

Forget about it. You cant buy them and the bandwidth is locked at 7mhz.

New Zealand is closer to our spec but they use one combo box and it doesnt do MHEG5.

There will be no official Freesat/Saorview combo.

The nearest receiver at the moment is the openbox S9 which is only packaged with a DVB-S2 single tuner BUT does have MHEG5 middleware for unknown reasons. This box is built on the Ali M3602 chip so does allow for 2 tuners........ etc etc etc

The Walker 75 sat box apparently does has a Freesat API & EPG grabber built in - but that is not a combo box (sat only) and so wont get you Tv3 or 3e on it even if you did you a combination of 9E and 28.2 with the KA LNB etc etc.

What you guys shouild be looking for is a Triple tuner hackable linux box with CI Plus.

CI Plus because MHEG5 engine has to be bundled with CI Plus. I dont know of anyone that is including CI Plus on boxes as yet.

Hackable because you will need to grab the epg data. That probably means Linux, the source of which is open.

Even then you are looking at adding a USB DVB-T stick so that you have it everyway when Mux 2 comes on.

Cant see that ever being commercial.

lawhec

watty wrote: »

They are pointless as they are not Freesat Boxes. Also there are other strange aspects about Australian TV. I think they may use MPEG2 for Terrestrial HD!

They currently do use MPEG2 for HD broadcasts, usually one HD stream in each multiplex. There are future plans to move to MPEG4, but there's no set date yet. All Freeview (Australia) certified receivers much be capable of displaying MPEG4 video.
There are some technical quirks all right in Australian television broadcasting, their VHF channel allocation is unique which in a few places still uses Band II shared with FM radio, 7MHz channels are used on UHF as opposed to 8MHz used in other 625 line countries (except in S.America). SCART never really caught on there, instead using phono & S-Video connectors like those in N.America though some receivers sold there now output component video through SCART which is quite rare (and non-standard) in Europe. Their DTT plans mimicked the USA & Canada more than in Europe where each current analogue station in a market is given their own multiplex rather than over here where a range of different broadcasters can be found on a single multiplex - the big difference being the use of DVB-T rather than ATSC and therefore LCN numbering rather than PISP that is used in ATSC.

Interestingly in 2014/15 (analogue broadcasts are scheduled to switch off totally by the end of 2013) there are plans in Australia to "restack" channel allocations so six adjacent* channels will be used together at the one transmission location being split over five frequency groups, one in VHF Band III and four in UHF. In the big cities (Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane, Perth & Adelaide) along with possibly Hobart, Canberra and a few regional places all six current multiplexes (2PSB, 3 commercial and 1 community) are planned to be shifted into VHF Band III at the main transmission sites so only a "wideband" VHF Band III aerial will be required to receive all services. Elsewhere (regions & rural along with urban relays) the transmissions will be in one of the four frequency blocks in UHF. One big advantage here is that some quite narrow-bandwidth UHF aerials can be designed for reception as they only have to cover 42MHz of spectrum. Unlike North American, Australia does differ with horizontal and vertical polarisation at transmission sites. The main idea is to clear the spectrum for the use of mobile services at 700MHz - 800MHz is already being used for HSPA by Telstra and Vodafone while Telstra is already using 1800MHz for data-only LTE with some pretty good results from what I've heard, where over here it's likely LTE at 800MHz will provide the "breath" and at 2600MHz and possibly 1800MHz as well provide the "depth".

The idea behind the restack is certainly interesting, and Australia being where it is thanks to geography pretty much has to get no international co-ordination to do this other than maybe in Far North Queensland. A similar reshuffling of allocations here in Ireland could prove very useful, but would likely have major headaches with international co-ordination.

* Strictly speaking the VHF allocation is not a consecutive bundle, using Australian channels 6, 7, 8, 9, 11 and 12, with 9A and 10 being reserved for DAB. For those not familiar channels 6-9 are equal to European channels E5-8, 9A to E9 and 10-12 being E10-12.

Edit: I agree with much of what STB has said above this post, a linux-based receiver system may well provide unofficial but full or near-full compatible combo receivers but its likely to be aimed at enthusiasts more than the general public and to perform properly as a PVR will need four tuners even if only two can be used at a time

liamtech

STB wrote: »

Forget about it. You cant buy them and the bandwidth is locked at 7mhz.

New Zealand is closer to our spec but they use one combo box and it doesnt do MHEG5.

There will be no official Freesat/Saorview combo.

The nearest receiver at the moment is the openbox S9 which is only packaged with a DVB-S2 single tuner BUT does have MHEG5 middleware for unknown reasons. This box is built on the Ali M3602 chip so does allow for 2 tuners........ etc etc etc

The Walker 75 sat box apparently does has a Freesat API & EPG grabber built in - but that is not a combo box (sat only) and so wont get you Tv3 or 3e on it even if you did you a combination of 9E and 28.2 with the KA LNB etc etc.

What you guys shouild be looking for is a Triple tuner hackable linux box with CI Plus.

CI Plus because MHEG5 engine has to be bundled with CI Plus. I dont know of anyone that is including CI Plus on boxes as yet.

Hackable because you will need to grab the epg data. That probably means Linux, the source of which is open.

Even then you are looking at adding a USB DVB-T stick so that you have it everyway when Mux 2 comes on.

Cant see that ever being commercial.

Does the open box support a 7 day EPG?

lawhec

liamtech wrote: »

Does the open box support a 7 day EPG?

The native 7 day DVB EPG I believe so, but that's not much use for Freesat. You might be able to get a software hack to enable it to read the Freesat or Sky 7 day EPG but I'm not really in any position to advise on this; nor may the admins here want it?

STB

Liam to answer your question I am not sure.

Heres why:

The first Openbox S9 HD PVR emerged out of Lithuania Lithuania translates quite well in google url translator. Now that has 2 tuners as you can see. And is running Linux. Yes it does have MHEG5. Has the linux image turned it off - I don't know. As it has a linux OS - you need a crossepg/blackhole plugin, the right one......for that box.

The S9 was also cloned to death by various chinese companies and you will see it with just one tuner sold very cheaply and was aimed at that market bearing gifts. So you dont want that version but it seems to be widespread and the original PVR version is hard to source and even then you would end up doing your own support and end learning jtag!

The full spec of the original PVR is also discussed here.

Best of luck dealing with the lithuanian support.

watty

STB wrote: »

CI Plus because MHEG5 engine has to be bundled with CI Plus. I dont know of anyone that is including CI Plus on boxes as yet.

Hackable because you will need to grab the epg data. That probably means Linux, the source of which is open.

Even then you are looking at adding a USB DVB-T stick so that you have it everyway when Mux 2 comes on.

Cant see that ever being commercial.

Even then it won't have the most important Freesat aspect, auto adding of new transponders and auto tuning. (No manual edits, scans deletes).

It will be interesting as a cheap combo, (it's not a PVR even if it can record on USB port) to see exactly what "Freesat" support the Walker has. IMO simply EPG and Red button isn't enough. You need the channel auto-upate.

liamtech

watty wrote: »

Even then it won't have the most important Freesat aspect, auto adding of new transponders and auto tuning. (No manual edits, scans deletes).

It will be interesting as a cheap combo, (it's not a PVR even if it can record on USB port) to see exactly what "Freesat" support the Walker has. IMO simply EPG and Red button isn't enough. You need the channel auto-upate.

While i agree that is vital, i reckon for day to day Ease of use, the 7 day epg on satellite is more important - assuming a box became available that had a 7 day Internet based EPG or the ability to pull in sky/freesat (i know there are legal questions to that option) it would provide for day to day viewing.

If such a box was available and a customer purchased the box from a reliable source, said customer could be made aware of the probability of having to manual tune for frequency changes - i could see boards playing a vital part in that.. A sticky thread could be started where users of this box could post frequency changes allowing users to update manually.. If this box was MHEG5 capable, it could be the best we are going to get - depending on who manufactures it the changes could be provided for via a network port too

Sam Russell

I think the next generation of Freesat box, and in particular the Humax version, will be well worth waiting for. The current Humax lacks horsepower, and a new box would have a much more powerful CPU, with more memory. This could allow them to include a DVB-T2 tuner (or even two), possibly as options, and we are in heaven.:D

liamtech

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think the next generation of Freesat box, and in particular the Humax version, will be well worth waiting for. The current Humax lacks horsepower, and a new box would have a much more powerful CPU, with more memory. This could allow them to include a DVB-T2 tuner (or even two), possibly as options, and we are in heaven.:D

"One set top box to rule them all,
One HDMI Cable to bind them
One combined Coax Cable to bring them all
And in the EPG (with Seven Day listings) you'll find them"

(says liam while holding the one ring in one hand, a glass of ale in the other, and shouting madly into a crystal ball... muahahaa)

A Freeview HD+ Freesat HD+ Combination PVR would be epic, but it doesnt look like happening any time soon... I cant understand this as many in the UK use both Freesat and Freeview - combi boxes are fairly popular over there too but perhaps not popular enough

And with what recently happened with the FREEVIEW HD Technisat HDFV, seemingly incompatible with saorview, who knows if even this would be a runner

Sam Russell

liamtech wrote: »

"One set top box to rule them all,
One HDMI Cable to bind them
One combined Coax Cable to bring them all
And in the EPG (with Seven Day listings) you'll find them"

(says liam while holding the one ring in one hand, a glass of ale in the other, and shouting madly into a crystal ball... muahahaa)

A Freeview HD+ Freesat HD+ Combination PVR would be epic, but it doesnt look like happening any time soon... I cant understand this as many in the UK use both Freesat and Freeview - combi boxes are fairly popular over there too but perhaps not popular enough

And with what recently happened with the FREEVIEW HD Technisat HDFV, seemingly incompatible with saorview, who knows if even this would be a runner

I think there were good reports on the Humax Freeview HD box wrt Saorview. Anyway, I think convergence will occur in the next round of products, some iDTVs are already compatible with both systems.

There is hope.

Macy0161

watty wrote: »

IMO simply EPG and Red button isn't enough. You need the channel auto-upate.

I'm not sure about that. EPG and Red Button would make it a good deal more attractive. Frequency changes aren't that often. It'd depend on how user friendly the receiver is for carrying out the tasks. Obviously if it's saorview certified, the DTT side will look after itself.

Sam Russell

Macy0161 wrote: »

Obviously if it's saorview certified, the DTT side will look after itself.

I have not heard of any OTA upgrades of Saorview boxes, even those that have reported problems. It is the one tangible benefit of owning a certified product. My Humax Foxsat HDR has been significantly improved over the years by OTA upgrades. If they happen regularly for Saorview as the service evolves, that will be great, but given the history to date, I am not hopeful.

Macy0161

I was more getting at having to manually retune. I don't actually own a certified product, but did they have to manually retune when RTE1+1 and RTEjr launched?

watty

Saorview doesn't retune automatically to find new Mux like Freesat does. The number of rescans needed will be tiny. One at ASO and one if a 3rd Mux is ever added.

There is no automatic feature on Freeview either, only Freesat.

excollier

My Sony Bravia Freeview telly updates automatically.

Willby

The long awaited certified Saorview box from Triax is being unveiled in the Rochestown Park Hotel , Cork at the end of this month.

Newryrep

Willby wrote: »

The long awaited certified Saorview box from Triax is being unveiled in the Rochestown Park Hotel , Cork at the end odf this month.

is this a PVR ? and will it be able to record uk freeview

Willby

Newryrep wrote: »

is this a PVR ? and will it be able to record uk freeview

Hi , Info here. Go to last post for pics etc
Willby

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77167471#post77167471

kuro_man

watty wrote: »

...still editing Transponders, rescanning and then deleting the "junk".

On Mythtv, this can be done by script: rescan, run script - no need to manually edit channels. Script sets visible flag to No on all unwanted channels and numbers freesat channels correctly. (I am not saying my mother could use it, but its easier all the same)