front squat, overhead squat

redzerredzer

Hello Everyone

Im hoping for some advice on improving my front squat and overhead squat.
Basically Im asking how many times a week I should practice these lifts?

I have noticed they come up together on the crossfit mainsite to be done for about 6 sets of 3 each as the workout of the day.
So, for no other than that reason I have been doing them together. I would do 5 x 5 of each and leave it at that.

I can get to the gym 3 times a week. Would it be stupid to just do them alone in every gym visit for 4-6 weeks? If thats not a good idea please suggest a program with these lifts in mind.

Thanks in advance

Edwardius

Take this for what it's worth (not a lot). I'd back squat monday and friday, front squat on weds, overhead squat each day during either your warmup or cooldown. The back squat (if you're doing a weightlifting style squat) should drive the front but not always the other way around. The OHS can handle more regular practice as it doesn't mess with recovery too much (provided your shoulders can handle them)

What are the ratios of your back->front->overhead squats at the moment? that'll probably tell you how to program each lift. Don't mind mainsite CF, it's programmed by monkeys on crack.

redzerredzer

Thanks ed
I front squat 76% of my back squat and the OH squat 35% of back squat. There is a bit more in me but Ive just started and building slow.
Flexibility problems should kick in with any more weight.

More comments welcome

GASMANN

monkeys on crack.[/QUOTE]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYyNJ8MevAQ

Hanley

Dead Ed wrote: »

Take this for what it's worth (not a lot). I'd back squat monday and friday, front squat on weds, overhead squat each day during either your warmup or cooldown. The back squat (if you're doing a weightlifting style squat) should drive the front but not always the other way around. The OHS can handle more regular practice as it doesn't mess with recovery too much (provided your shoulders can handle them)

What are the ratios of your back->front->overhead squats at the moment? that'll probably tell you how to program each lift. Don't mind mainsite CF, it's programmed by monkeys on crack.

This is so incredibly money. You won't get a better answer.

Inspector Coptoor

Nice post Ed.

Id put an OH squat variant in the warm up every day, whether it's with an empty bar, a PVC pipe, a broom handle or a band and then work from there.

A good workout to try is the all squat workout Dan John has mentioned a few times

Start with the OH squat,
When you max out on that,
Move to the front squat
When you max out on that
Move to the back squat.

It's an interesting workout.

(he does say to go on to include partial squats but I don't really like them)

Hanley

Liam Henners257 wrote: »

Nice post Ed.

Id put an OH squat variant in the warm up every day, whether it's with an empty bar, a PVC pipe, a broom handle or a band and then work from there.

A good workout to try is the all squat workout Dan John has mentioned a few times

Start with the OH squat,
When you max out on that,
Move to the front squat
When you max out on that
Move to the back squat.

It's an interesting workout.

(he does say to go on to include partial squats but I don't really like them)

More of a "test" than training tho? Like you wouldn't be able to get much meaningful skill work done with that approach?

Could be a cool comp tho - Max total number, allowed unlimited attempts w/ minimum jumps of 2kg OH, 5kg front, 7.5kg back!!

Inspector Coptoor

Hanley wrote: »

More of a "test" than training tho? Like you wouldn't be able to get much meaningful skill work done with that approach?

Could be a cool comp tho - Max total number, allowed unlimited attempts w/ minimum jumps of 2kg OH, 5kg front, 7.5kg back!!

Yeah, that sounds like a good idea!!

As for a way of training the above,
I would be thinking along the lines of doing sets of 5 reps

So for me, that might look something like:

OH squat
Band/pipe x 5
20kg x 5
30kg x 5
40kg x 5
50kg x 5

Front squat
60kg x 5
70kg x 5
80kg x 5
85kg x 5

Back squat
90kg x 5
100kg x 5

Etc

banshee_bones

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Nice post Ed.

Id put an OH squat variant in the warm up every day, whether it's with an empty bar, a PVC pipe, a broom handle or a band and then work from there.

I think I have only ever done OHS about twice ever. Even then as part of a warm up.

If someone can tell me why I should start doing them I may start incorporating them :pac:

Inspector Coptoor

The OH squat is used a lot as a functional screen.
You can identify weakness & restrictions from it if you get someone who knows what they're doing take a look at your OH squat

Another point would be us that they are a simple exercise.
Simple but not easy.
People should be doing some exercises that they aren't good at/they find difficult.

Lastly, if you ever want to do the Olympic lifts, the OH squat will be a large part of snatch training.

Edwardius

i don't know any olympic lifters who ohs regularly

Inspector Coptoor

Dead Ed wrote: »

i don't know any olympic lifters who ohs regularly

Edit: initial snatch training & introduction to snatching

Edwardius

Inspector Coptoor wrote: »

Edit: initial snatch training & introduction to snatching

Ah gotcha. Probably looked pedantic there, I didn't intend to!

Edwardius

redzerredzer wrote: »

Thanks ed
I front squat 76% of my back squat and the OH squat 35% of back squat. There is a bit more in me but Ive just started and building slow.
Flexibility problems should kick in with any more weight.

More comments welcome

76% is not far off the mark, I think 80%ish is a good general number when everything is balanced, which means that you just need to get stronger overall to improve it! The OHS is low, so you need to do a lot of them. At that percentage you'll probably improve the max without actually getting "stronger" (I don't really know what that is anymore :P), i.e. it's probably a coordination/nervous thing (although that kinda means strength). If you're a crossfitter, don't neglect the high rep OHS either, maybe take one day as a high rep day (tens), triples or singles on another day. If you're not a crossfitter... don't do overhead squats :P

token

I'm in the OHS is primarily a skill camp and that back/front squats are what drives strength. If you haven't acquired the skill yet practice it every training day. If you do have it infrequent exposure is enough to maintain the skill*

*So what his beardyness Ed said then and I'm really just posting because I'm procrastinating in work.

redzerredzer

Dead Ed wrote: »

76% is not far off the mark, I think 80%ish is a good general number when everything is balanced, which means that you just need to get stronger overall to improve it! The OHS is low, so you need to do a lot of them. At that percentage you'll probably improve the max without actually getting "stronger" (I don't really know what that is anymore :P), i.e. it's probably a coordination/nervous thing (although that kinda means strength). If you're a crossfitter, don't neglect the high rep OHS either, maybe take one day as a high rep day (tens), triples or singles on another day. If you're not a crossfitter... don't do overhead squats :P

Hey Ed, thanks for the advice.
Overall strength improvement is the goal. Stats are pretty low at the moment.
Can I push my luck now and ask you to suggest a 3 day program.
You said back squat mon and fri.
Front squat wed.
Overhead each day, but how many sets and reps?
Which other lifts should I include each day?
Thanks man.

Edwardius

Maybe something Texasy like:

Monday:
Back squat 5x5 (same weight for each set, you're trying to get some volume in here)
OHS: High reps, maybe 3x10 (not too heavy, maybe even start with just the bar)

Wednesday
Front squat 3x3 (not mental heavy, but challenging)
OHS: 5x5 (maybe a little heavier than monday as there's fewer reps)

Friday
Back squat 1x5 (one pretty heavy set of 5)
OHS: 5x3 (triples, push these a little more than Wednesday, you should be able to do pretty triples without getting ragged)

This is just something kinda general, you can do 3x5 on everything either and still get better if you think your stats are low. The most important thing is doing quality work, showing up, eating enough food and sleeping, rest as needed between sets. Whatever you do don't start with the weight too high, you're trying to get stronger, not express strength from the outset (although the lines kinda blur at a point)

Other exercises: You should probably do some sort of pressing movement once a week, a rowing movement too and some plank type movements. If you're interested in deadlifting maybe pull reasonable set of five on one of the days.

Now the above is basically subject to my particular proximity biases, so my perspective might be warped a certain way. It's probably best to get a second opinion from someone here or a trainer. Pay attention to how the weights feel and get someone critical to look at you (not a cheerleader!) now and then to make sure you're not going to destroy yourself!

redzerredzer

Thanks very much Ed, much appreciated.
going to get stuck into this progam tomorrow

Edwardius

Good stuff, hope it works for ya!

johnryano

Hope I can just butt in here.

Why front squat if you're already back squatting? What muscles are use during the front squat not used in the back squat?

Let's say you're a rugby player (which I'm not) and you're deadlifting, squatting and benching on some program why introduce the front squat?

please interpret as widely as possible any/or direct me to a previous discussion on it.

I am new to weight training and just wondering

Edwardius

Well the bar placement leads to the torso being more upright so that the knee flexion is higher and the quads are used more. It can probably help the back squat for some people who have muscular imbalances or issues with leaning forward, like if your front squat happens to be 50% of your back squat then something might be amiss (could be a mobility thing either). Front squatting is necessary for weightlifters, someone doing the likes of crossfit and I've seen bodybuilders doing them a fair bit too. As for rugby players, I have no idea.

johnryano

thanks ed, i think i'll just have to spend some time doing both and try and figure out on my own what they're worth.

Nate--IRL--

Can I ask a stupid question? How in the hell can people squat 3 times a week? I usually Squat once a week (Fri) and I consider it fortunate if I'm able to walk on Monday.

Ok Slight exaggeration there, but sometimes I'm unable to Deadlift on the following Tuesday. What is the theory behind lighter loads, more times week? It may be obvious, but it isn't something I'm familiar with.

Nate

Hanley

Nate--IRL-- wrote: »

Can I ask a stupid question? How in the hell can people squat 3 times a week? I usually Squat once a week (Fri) and I consider it fortunate if I'm able to walk on Monday.

Ok Slight exaggeration there, but sometimes I'm unable to Deadlift on the following Tuesday. What is the theory behind lighter loads, more times week? It may be obvious, but it isn't something I'm familiar with.

Nate

SAIDs - specific adaptation to imposed demands. You get better at squatting more by squatting more (this can take a long long time)

Loading is obviously a factor - you can't hit maxes daily (broadly speaking).

Rep scheme's are huge - it's unlikely you'll squat multiple times per week for extended periods of time by squatting high reps. You jsut can't recover.

Periodisation is important - most people won't do it year around. A snap shot of someones training at a point in time is generally a poor indicator of year around programming.

cc87

Just thought id give a link to the last article in a 4 part series of someone comparing the front and back squat
http://www.benbruno.com/2012/02/the-front-squat-vs-back-squat-debate-part-4/

I would highly recommend that you read it from part one onwards rather then from part 4 backwards.

Nate--IRL--

Ah OK that makes sense, thanks Hanley.

Nate