Looting

Zomg Okay

Right, I can't watch TWD until Friday and I needed a new thread to distract me from the temptation of reading the spoiler thread, so here's a scenario for you.

Imagine the scene. Z Day was three months ago. Society has fallen apart. The bands of raiders are almost as big a threat as the zombies themselves. You're ruining out of food. You need to go looting. So you grab a rucksack, a basic survival kit (lighter, matches, etc.) and a crowbar.

How do you proceed? How do you decide where to break in? How do you deal with closed doors hiding God knows what? How do you deal with gangs of bandits? Etc.

Because lets face it. You're going to be most at risk when you're scavenging.

degrassinoel

i'd have to know where i was before i could form a plan.

Would this be in an urban/suburban/rural setting?

doctor evil

It would depend on how well you know the area, I'd want an up to date map.

Zomg Okay

degrassinoel wrote: »

i'd have to know where i was before i could form a plan.

Would this be in an urban/suburban/rural setting?

Sorry, should have made that a little clearer. It'd be where you, personally, expect to be living/surviving after Z Day.

Tzar Chasm

First off, its only Looting if theres a Civil society to frown upon such things, in this instance it would be referred to as 'Foraging'

I intend to be living by the sea on a farm with plenty of Spuds and other veg growing, I would probably still have a few Cattle, Sheep and Hens wanderin about and at that stage I should have cut a deal with the Pig farmer up the road based on a mutually beneficial trade. theres also plenty of Fish still.

Should the need arise to Forage it would only be for sundry items like spare parts for machines, extra clothing or Hardware supplies, these things should draw less attention amongst the bandits.

If you find yerself runnin out of food after 3 months your Long term survival plan needs a drastic rethink

djk1000

I wouldn't be going on foot for a start. Heading out is dangerous, so first off I'd forage for a good vehicle with lots of storage space, then I'd look for whatever I'd need to survive living in the vehicle for a week or two in an emergency. Then I'd try to find a garage and go A-Team montage on the vehicle to beef it up.

After that, I'd think about hitting the local supermarket/shops etc. The thinking is that a trip to a supermarket is high risk, so I'd try to cut down on the number of times I'd need to go, fill up a sturdy vehicle with months of supplies in one go.

I'd also crack out the golden pages for a list of hunting shops that I could maybe scavenge some better weapons than a crowbar and drive around to them one by one.

HavingCrack

3 months and I'd hope I'd have no need to go foraging for food. There may be a need for spare parts or miscellaneous goods I suppose.

djk1000 wrote: »

After that, I'd think about hitting the local supermarket/shops etc. The thinking is that a trip to a supermarket is high risk, so I'd try to cut down on the number of times I'd need to go, fill up a sturdy vehicle with months of supplies in one go.

If you're still relying on supermarket's after 3 month's you're in serious trouble.

southcentralts

gold too heavy
cash too useless
diamonds --- diamond gun - works like a shotgun - high pressure air shoots diamonds at zombies, at a workbench combine
a leafblower,
a firehoze nozzle,
a vacuum cleaner
€1,000,000,000 in diamonds
100,000 kinder egg containers

RiderOnTheStorm

was just talking about this the other day with my son.

We have a scenario for our town, if Z day comes. A few days / weeks down the line we will have to do a few things. Like, go door-to-door to every house / shop / building etc in our zone (we have a zone in mind where we fence off a few blocks & roads ) and turn off the elec and water etc. The plan is to someday get elec & water bak on line. At the same time, we collect any goodies from each building. We make a map of the places that have stuff we might want to come back to (if the stuff is too big, or would take too long to gt out). And at same time deal with any Z's found. Secure the house afterwards, so Z's cant wander back in. I reckon we have a quad & trailer outside, with a guy minding it, to carry the small stuff (food, medicine, fuel, etc). The house search team would be at least 2 guys , so as to watch each others backs. Best scenaro would be 5 guys. 2 with the quad & trailer and 3 in the house. Someone has to carry the stuff and he cant defend himself quickly if attacked.

Possible method of entry. Look in windows first. Bang on door. Listen for sounds. Open door and examin hallway. Repeat room by room. (imagine SWAT team, but much slower and quieter). Shotgun & sword / hammer to kill the Z's found.

ScumLord

I'd be raiding building supply shops like caulfields, I don't think there will be anything left of the supermarkets. 3 months of people starving will have cleaned every shelf in the country, you'll want to have found a alternative/natural source of food by then.

Most my plans will revolve around getting as much as I can in bulk out of the suppliers early on. They're one step above the consumer market which won't be helpful for food but it will be for necessities like electronic supplies and tools.

JJayoo

I think rural Ireland will be a perfect killing ground for zombies. 1000's of fields surrounded in strong sheep wire and a row of thorn on top. Add a health dose of heavy machinery to the mix and you have plenty of zombie compost. You can imagine the damage a 30 tonne plus digger would do to a field full of zombies.

Tzar Chasm

Despite wat people maythink diggers etc aint gonna be much use, they are loud and slow machines with very specific angles of attack and relativly little in the way of defenses

RiderOnTheStorm

have a look around your own kitchen. You will find quite a bit of food (tinned and fresh). Imagine this multiplied by 100 houses in nearby estates. I think if you raid ordinary domestic homes you will find quite a bit when its all put together. It might be slow (and a bit dangerous) as each house could contain a Zach trapped inside unable to get out. But like prev posters say, the supermarkets will be the obvious choice, so they will be picked clean or else they are the castle for new raiders.

Another choice would be pubs and restaurants. As you can see, food it my top priority.

After this, I would say farms are a very good source of nearly all essential supplies. Food, diesel, shotgun, water-well, quad bike, tools, etc

ScumLord

RiderOnTheStorm wrote: »

have a look around your own kitchen. You will find quite a bit of food (tinned and fresh). Imagine this multiplied by 100 houses in nearby estates.

Now imagine there's 4 or 5 people in each of those houses.

Tzar Chasm

Theres a good point

Most people seem to be under the impression that they alone will survive whlst their neighbours will all perish under the same circumstances, wheras there may be an element of realism to this in an urban environment due to probability of mass contagin on a fairly rapid scale, in Rural settings the opposite is true, in a Rural or even Semi Rural situation the vast bulk of the population Should survive any initial outbreak due mainly to the dificulty of infecting them ( presuming infection spread through contact, Airborne Infection is a game changer ) so your bigest threat isnt that the noise you hear behind the door is a Z its the probability that its a tooled up neighbour about to take umbrage with your sense of entitlement to Their Food.

Mick7_62

Going house-to-house in my neighborhood would be my first priority. I believe no one can survive alone, you need a community. As a soldier in my youth, it was drilled into my head that you always have your buddy "pull security."

So, not only would I be looking for supplies (esp. bottled water: food is useless if your dehydrated), but also recruits. We also have several large grocery distribution warehouses in my area. That would be my next stop.

JJayoo

Despite wat people maythink diggers etc aint gonna be much use, they are loud and slow machines with very specific angles of attack and relativly little in the way of defenses

It will be important to create killing fields to clear the area of zombies, lure them into a football pitch and roll over them with a big digger.

Cianos

I live close to the city centre, so looting would be very risky, but also probably quite fruitful.

If looting was my only means of sustenance (which would probably be the case), I'd approach it in a very strategic way;

1. Map the area
2. Target buildings in a radial fashion, keeping as close to my stronghold as possible at all times, then working outwards.
3. Never burden myself to be unable to run. It's better to do a safe journey ten times than a dangerous journey once.
4. Work as a team. If I am grouped with other survivors, I'd use numbers to our advantage. A reciprocal procedure of surveillance and transportation in order to safely cover ground and return goods.

ScumLord

Cianos wrote: »

3. Never burden myself to be unable to run. It's better to do a safe journey ten times than a dangerous journey once.

I wouldn't look at it that way, one trip either way if successful is job done, boil the kettle time. Ten journeys means taking that risk ten times and possibly giving enemies and zombies the opportunity to follow or entrap you ten times.

Seeing as you'll be part of a group I'd suggest one heavy run along a monitored route. Plan it out organise what you'll need and how you will deal with problems, set people up along the route to watch proceedings and maybe even create a diversion for zombies while the run is being made.

Knowledge is power so having scouts watching the route gives you a large area of knowledge to prevent any raiders. If your scout tells you there's a trap laid ahead and the raiders only know about the truck it gives your group the upper hand in the exchange. You could avoid the exchange or counter attack taking everything they have disabling their ability to attack you again any time soon.

Cianos

ScumLord wrote: »

I wouldn't look at it that way, one trip either way if successful is job done, boil the kettle time. Ten journeys means taking that risk ten times and possibly giving enemies and zombies the opportunity to follow or entrap you ten times.

Seeing as you'll be part of a group I'd suggest one heavy run along a monitored route. Plan it out organise what you'll need and how you will deal with problems, set people up along the route to watch proceedings and maybe even create a diversion for zombies while the run is being made.

Knowledge is power so having scouts watching the route gives you a large area of knowledge to prevent any raiders. If your scout tells you there's a trap laid ahead and the raiders only know about the truck it gives your group the upper hand in the exchange. You could avoid the exchange or counter attack taking everything they have disabling their ability to attack you again any time soon.

See my 4th point

RiderOnTheStorm

Something to remember is that there will prob be (who knows for certain) about 90% fatality rate with the Z virus & the Zeds killing the living. So, in a town of 1000 people thats 100 folk still alive. Thats quite a lot. Ok, if its 99% fatal then thats 10 folk. But the point is that we (i am hoping i will be a survivor) wont have the place entirely to ourselves to loot as we feel (ignoring the Zed's for the moment).
So, what would you folk do if you (and a few buddies.....lets imagine the other 9 in your group of 10 are not kids, grannies, etc) go out to raid a supermarket and find it defended by a few other raiders from a neighbouring town? Is it Mad Max and might-is-right? Do you barter? Or leave it and find another place?
How will you deal with the above situ if you and your group are holding the supermarket and 2 car loads of strangers turn up?
Just wondering how folk plan to deal with raiders? they will be very different from Zed's .

i guess we wont know until it happens, or we might have an idea, but each situation will be different.

ScumLord

RiderOnTheStorm wrote: »

Something to remember is that there will prob be (who knows for certain) about 90% fatality rate with the Z virus & the Zeds killing the living. So, in a town of 1000 people thats 100 folk still alive.

I don't think it'll go down that way, like you say it'll be different depending on the area. In the countryside where populations are more spread out and there are fewer choke points people won't be under the same threat as those in cities. I think it's highly likely that in smaller towns after 3 months starvation and random violence will take as many if not more people than the zombie disease.

I don't think we can overstate the fact humans work in groups. For our brain size a group of 150 people is ideal going by the size of other primate colonies. Humans also trade, they now think that's the one major difference that lead to our success over Neanderthals, they didn't share culture and ides like we did and do.

My point being I don't think small groups will last too long, the benefits of large groups is too obvious and alluring. I think Ireland will go back to a collection of kingships, socialist groups and a few dictatorships that will fight each other for resources, I think human organisation will quickly re-establish large human colonies fairly quickly.

RiderOnTheStorm

ScumLord wrote: »

My point being I don't think small groups will last too long, the benefits of large groups is too obvious and alluring. I think Ireland will go back to a collection of kingships, socialist groups and a few dictatorships that will fight each other for resources, I think human organisation will quickly re-establish large human colonies fairly quickly.

I agree. We wont go back as far as the stone-age when society breaks down. But back as far as the medieval times. Our knowledge wont be lost , but our manufacturing & industry will. So we will end up with strong groups scattered here and there, kingdoms if you will.

Tzar Chasm

I wouldnt even be as pesimistic as saying Medieval, Victorian is entirely plausible, the level of advancement in some of the more rudimentary technologies is staggering, we might not be able to build nuclear reactors but given a bit of time and a few people with the nescessary science and metalwork skills we could defo do Gas lighting, bronze castings, industrial weaving, glass, Ceramics, Steam engines, Gunpowder/Cordite....

a second Industrial revolution wouldnt take too long to kickstart, especially since we have the acumulated knowledge of two centuries from the last one.

Books could wind up being the mst precious resoursce of all

Tzar Chasm

Actually if all went to plan with my Survival strategy that'd be the only reason I'd leave the security of home to venture into one of the nearby-ish towns, to raid the bookshops and libraries

ScumLord

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

I wouldnt even be as pesimistic as saying Medieval, Victorian is entirely plausible, the level of advancement in some of the more rudimentary technologies is staggering, we might not be able to build nuclear reactors but given a bit of time and a few people with the nescessary science and metalwork skills we could defo do Gas lighting, bronze castings, industrial weaving, glass, Ceramics, Steam engines, Gunpowder/Cordite....

These are things I like to look up. How to make glass and things like that.

Books could wind up being the mst precious resoursce of all

Books and access to local networks in colleges and advanced manufacturing plants.

It's hard to say we'll go back to any particular time period in relation to technology, it's amazing how much can be done just by having a scientific foundation and the use of the scientific method. The world could quite easily end up in a utopia state as an abundance of resources are shared out to relatively small amount of people. There may be no need to fight each other.

Tzar Chasm

I know a bloke who used to work for Waterford Crystal, he's on my Useful allies list glass can be fairly simple to make in some of is more basic forms, bear in mind that even Medieval societies had Glass, its main ingridients are white Sand, Lime, Potash, and some Minerals (from my understanding a few Aluminium cans wil suffice here), then its just a case of grinding it all into a fine powder heatin it up and working itto the shape you want. Simples:p

I do agree that the technology we have today means that with a little knowledge we can live very comfortable lives, and with the Satelite infrastructure inplace we may well be able to continue these interweb conversations longafter the demise of civil society.

What most scares me is the Idiots, everyone knows a few morons who would burn all the books in the world out of pure spite, these thickos may get their way:(


on the other point

there may well be no NEED to fight each other, however the base nature of humanity means that we may simply WANT to fight each other.

ScumLord

Tzar Chasm wrote: »

I know a bloke who used to work for Waterford Crystal, he's on my Useful allies list glass can be fairly simple to make in some of is more basic forms, bear in mind that even Medieval societies had Glass, its main ingridients are white Sand, Lime, Potash, and some Minerals (from my understanding a few Aluminium cans wil suffice here), then its just a case of grinding it all into a fine powder heatin it up and working itto the shape you want. Simples:p

Hopefully, but that kind of crude glass may not be anything like modern glass. If you look at old glass it's actually running over time. What you'd need to do is get manufacturing techniques they would have used in Waterford crystal. If you could make that stuff you could probably make all sorts of glassware.

and with the Satelite infrastructure inplace we may well be able to continue these interweb conversations longafter the demise of civil society.

I wonder how independent satellites are, would they just work without ground control?

there may well be no NEED to fight each other, however the base nature of humanity means that we may simply WANT to fight each other.

To be fair to humans we are quite sociable for the most part. We value trade of not just goods but ideas. Most humans spend the vast majority of their time being kind and respectful to each other.

Tzar Chasm

thats a common misconception that glass has flowed
http://www.thefoa.org/tech/glass.htm

the percieved flow comes from how the glass was made, it was blown as a globe and spun flat (those 'ornate' bubbles you see in older windows are actually the centre pieces from that process)

Waterford Crystal was Surprisingly low tech in its production of glass
Mix powders
Heat in massive furnace
Blow

the Science is in knowing the ratios and the tempratures
the Art is in the blowing

all this can be achieved through trial and error


as I understand it the Satellites are fairly autonomous, the geostationary ones should be capable of functioning for about twenty years before they run out of juice maybe longer.

We are a sociable bunch, to a point, we are very parochial too, as has ben stated on this thread the ideal group size for a community is about 150 people, History has shown us that one of the most efficient way to unite a group is in opposition to a common enemy, Z's may provide some of this social glue, but Resoursce competition will provide the rest along with some good ole fashion Xenophobia