harpoon

cyrusdvirus

Over the weekend i treated myself to a download of Harpoon.

There is a scenario editor that allows you devise up your own battles and forces etc...

It has entries for the ships currently in the Naval Service, and i did up a quick battle last night, 1 Perry class frigate vs the entire Naval Service.. the Perry won, quite comfortably too. I'm going to play as the Irish side tonight and see what i can do to defend our west coast.... :rolleyes:

It got me thinking though..... Money no object, and conscription service for 5 years for every 20 year old man and woman... What would the PDF look like.

Essentially a wish list of what would we like to see flying the irish flag, where the only limitation is the population base. We simply don't have enough citizens to support a fleet of 10 Nimitz class carriers c/w airwing. Realistically i could see maybe a couple of Spruance class ships, a couple of Perry class frigates and so on...

Anyone got any suggestions?

tac foley

gatecrash wrote: »

We simply don't have enough citizens to support a fleet of 10 Nimitz class carriers c/w airwing.

The RoI doesn't have the population to support ONE CVN, even without an air wing. The cost is a mite spendy, too.

Just to give you an idea.....

Personnel wages - $160,000,000 per year.
Aircraft fuel and maintenance parts - $400,000,000 per year.
Cost of the ship - $4,500,000,000 and divide it over its lifetime (about 40 years) = $530,000,000 per year or $1,450,000 per day.

Carriers launch on average 18 times (with 18 recoveries) per day including time in port and time in shipyads.

That means each carrier launch costs $80,600.

tac

cyrusdvirus

Well i did say money no object, just population base.

I'm trying to get a decent and more experienced guess at what sort of balanced defence force we would have if there was a logical and professional command and procurement structure in place



Incidentally, after re-equipping the LE Eithne with 1 Dauphin armed with exocets the Irish Navy was able to hold out against that marauding Perry class frigate!!

tac foley

Where to find the crew?

Irish Navy personnel = Total 1444 [2010 figure]

US Navy Nimitz = crew 3200, airwing 2480 = total = 5680

Feeding the Nimitz for a day could bankrupt the RoI.

The problem about your idea of a balanced naval defence force is that in order to have such a thing you need one, or both, of the following -

1. A VERY large amount of disposable income to BUY what you need from those who build the things.

or

2. A VERY large industrial infrastructure to build and maintain your own.

Respectfully, the RoI has neither of these things.

cyrusdvirus

tac foley wrote: »

Where to find the crew?

Irish Navy personnel = Total 1444 [2010 figure]

US Navy Nimitz = crew 3200, airwing 2480 = total = 5680

Feeding the Nimitz for a day could bankrupt the RoI.

tac

I DID say 5 year conscription for all.

If you read the last bit of the opening post i mentioned a couple of spruance & perry class ships (or their equivalent).

The mention of the 10 nimitz class ships was precisely to NOT have a sidetracked discussion about whether or not the ROI could support one. I specifically said that much.

I also said money no object, so whether or not running a Nimitz class ship, feeding the crew, fuelling the airwing would bankrupt our wonderfully bankrupt little country is irrelevant..

tac foley

Scenarios are all well and good providing that there is even the remotest semblance of possibility in them. 'What if's' with a chance of happening can be great fun, for sure. that's what war-games are all about, as anybody who has ever taken part in real ones can testify. However, there has to be a necessary amount of reality in them to be a valid exercise, and right now there is not the slightest possibility of any of your 'what ifs' ever having even the slightest chance of happening.

However, don't let a total suspension of reality put you off - it would be good for you, as a gamer, to try out your scenario and let us see how it pans out.

tac

cyrusdvirus

tac foley wrote: »

Scenarios are all well and good providing that there is even the remotest semblance of possibility in them. 'What if's' with a chance of happening can be great fun, for sure. that's what war-games are all about, as anybody who has ever taken part in real ones can testify. However, there has to be a necessary amount of reality in them to be a valid exercise, and right now there is not the slightest possibility of any of your 'what ifs' ever having even the slightest chance of happening.

However, don't let a total suspension of reality put you off - it would be good for you, as a gamer, to try out your scenario and let us see how it pans out.

tac

Placing this thread in the Walter Mitty forum, and referring to a logical and professional command and procurement process proves that this is exaxctly what you are alluding to, a sheer flight of fancy...:pac:

i wouldn't call myself a gamer either, just someone who dabbles.....

Either way, considering you are the only one who has responded, have you any suggestions for a balanced defence force, Air force, navy and land forces?

tac foley

Hmmmmmmmm. Consider the length of the national coast line, including that of the north, of course, you are going to need a littoral defence force, rather than any kind of a projection force. To that end you'll need a lot of small ships, many minelayers and coastal patrol boats of the old Nanuchka type - small ships with a disporportionately high level on on-board armament. The army will need to be a rapid-reaction force, preferably helicopter-borne - lots of Chinooks, then. You'll need a Ranger wing to take on any opposing equivalent - where are your vulnerable points and how do you protect them?

Also needed will be attack choppers - Apache Longbows and NO fixed wing aircraft of any kind - airfields are way too vulnerable...

Move on from there......

tac

OS119

i'd disagree with Tac there - fixed-wing air power is one of the only really effective ways of keeping people at arms length, and even in a 'wish list' scenario you'll need to keep people at arms length because of the lack of a large population to fight face to face.

i'd go for a maritime denial capability, and a strike capability - the denial capability being provided by SSK's and a mine-laying force, and the strike capability being provided by a MQ-4C BAMS/P-8 force that provided the maritime ISTAR/ASW roles, and a dedicated multi-role force of F/A-18F that did the AD and strike tasks.

an F/A-18F fleet could self-tank and self-escort all the way to Iceland or Portugal, it could also, with AWACS support, keep pretty much any unwelcome visitor at bay in the AD role.

i'm not sure i'd radically increase the size of the IA, though i'd spend a bit to train the fcuk out of it - the total overseas capability i'd want to create would be an all-arms battlegroup in high-intensity warfare, and a Brigade sized capability in the event of an invasion - a lot of it reservist based. big tickets items to provide that capability are going to be lots of medium/heavy lift helicopters, UAV's, A-400M/C-17/C-130 transports, and Artillery.

i wouldn't bother with conscription - concripts aren't much use for the kind of technologically advanced programmes you need to fight against enemies with much greater populations. in a defensive scenario for a maritime country like Ireland, 35 volunteers on an SSK a thousand miles out in the Atlantic is far more use than 500 concripts in trenches in County Clare.

total PDF force might double, almost all of which would be NS and AC - though i'd probably shoot half the current AC and put the rest under the NS command to ensure i didn't spend €5bn on F/A-18F's, AWACS, P-8's, MQ-5's and C-17's and not be able to use one after 4pm on a Friday...

tac foley

OS119 wrote: »

i'd disagree with Tac there - fixed-wing air power is one of the only really effective ways of keeping people at arms length, and even in a 'wish list' scenario you'll need to keep people at arms length because of the lack of a large population to fight face to face.

Your 'lack of large population' bangs your fixed-wing air power firmly on the head.

As anyone with an air force would tell you, in order to operate a single fixed wing combat aircraft you need a 'tail' of around 80 specialist personnel. Any air force is a literal pyramid, with a huge base made of people and a single point - the pilot. Look at Casement Aerodrome, count the planes and then count the people, and BTW, how many jets does the Air Corps currently have in service?

A quick look at every conflict since 1967 will show the vulnerabilties of fixed wing bases to attack by just about anything that falls out of the sky.

tac

westdub

tac foley wrote: »

Your 'lack of large population' bangs your fixed-wing air power firmly on the head.

As anyone with an air force would tell you, in order to operate a single fixed wing combat aircraft you need a 'tail' of around 80 specialist personnel. Any air force is a literal pyramid, with a huge base made of people and a single point - the pilot. Look at Casement Aerodrome, count the planes and then count the people, and BTW, how many jets does the Air Corps currently have in service?

tac

Have a look at the Royal Air Force of Oman to see what a small population with a lot of money can do, They have a population that's half of ours but lots of money.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Air_Force_of_Oman

Another small population with lots of money and a Air Force.... .http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuwait_Air_Force

cyrusdvirus

I suppose there should be an opposing force devised here too.

I wouldn't envisage anything massive, nothing like going up against the US or The Russians, or their ilk.

I suppose a larger force based out of say, Greenland, (just as a geographical base, this is, as i said a total off the wall scenario)




And i have to admit, i was thinking something more along the lines of fixed wing/ area denial too.

Having littoral ships is all well and good, but at that stage any pretend-potential enemy would be virtually at the doorstep


In terms of the conscripts issue OS119, that was just to get the manpower to support a larger force.
In this scenario, a 5 year term of service would sort the wheat from the chaff and the good servicemen and women would be encouraged to stay on and be those 35 well trained volunteers on the SSK, as opposed to a 500 man group of cannon fodder

OS119

tac foley wrote: »

...A quick look at every conflict since 1967 will show the vulnerabilties of fixed wing bases to attack by just about anything that falls out of the sky.

and a quick look at every conflict since 1939 will tell you that if you don't control the airspace above the battle, you lose - and no one has yet managed to control the airspace above the battle with Helicopters or a GBADE.

your argument about population doesn't hold swing - the RAF at 35,000 personel operated 70 Harrier GR9, 100+ Tornado GR4, 50+ Typhoon, 50 C-130, 7 C-17, 100+ Medium/Heavy lift Helicopters, 6 E-3D AWACS, 9 Nimrod R1/MR2, SENTINAL, REAPER and all the training aircraft to support that operation. a) with unlimited funds the RoI's population could easily support a technically skilled force of 35,000, and b) i'm not talking about a force of that size - or anything like it.

Irelands population, with defence spending at the European average of 2% - let alone the 'unlimited funds' as set out in the OP - would support the doubling in size of the PDF. given that my wishlist talks about a 100 F/A-18F fleet, 10 P8, 10 MQ-4, 5 AWACS, 20 CH-47, 20 UH-60 and 10 A-400M fleet, i'm probably talking about an Air Force of 15 - 20,000.

don't use the AC as a barometer, they are no more relevent to this discussion than the colour of bambi's arse.

tac foley

I take your points.

However, let's just inject a certain amount of Planet Reality into the equation, and then I'll let you get on with your fantasies, rather than any semblance of reality.

'Oman's proved reserves of petroleum total about 5.5 billion barrels, 24th largest in the world.'

and Ireland has............? What, precisely, to base this incredibly massive increase in its GNP?

tac, out

cyrusdvirus

Tac,

I appreciate your points, and yes, you are correct. This is a total flight of fancy. The thought of Ireland having a defence force that could actually defend against a determined agressor is a little bit crazy.

The thought of an OPFOR coming from Greenland is equally insane, but this IS a game we are talking about. About the only realism that will be injected is the capabilities of the hardware involved and the limitation of the population base.

OS119, forgive my ignorance but what is a GBADE? Ground Brigade?

Manic Moran

Which version of Harpoon did you get?

cyrusdvirus

Manic Moran wrote: »

Which version of Harpoon did you get?

There's an Ultimate edition version available, which has the 4 releases on one dvd, from the original Harpoon Classic version developed by 360 Pacific, up to the most recent release, Commanders Edition developed by Matrix games.

I first started playing the original version on a Windows 3.11 box YEARS ago... You should've seen my grin when i started playing it again over the weekend!! :)

OS119

gatecrash wrote: »

...OS119, forgive my ignorance but what is a GBADE? Ground Brigade?

Ground Based Air Defence Environment.

its a system which can include air assets, but its mainly SAM's and is, as the name suggests 'Ground based'. thats its problem - too much gamekeeper and not enough poacher: wrong attitude, wrong assets, wrong mentality.

if you want to kill a pirate, send a pirate.

cyrusdvirus

OS119 wrote: »

Ground Based Air Defence Environment.

its a system which can include air assets, but its mainly SAM's and is, as the name suggests 'Ground based'. thats its problem - too much gamekeeper and not enough poacher: wrong attitude, wrong assets, wrong mentality.

if you want to kill a pirate, send a pirate.

Cheers.

FWIW i would tend to agree.

I'm thinking a predominately defensive force, with limited long range deep strike capability.

One of the limitations of the game is that while it allows Air to air refuelling, the reciever a/c can only tank once, ruling out any Black Buck style multiple tanker, multiple tanking type missions.

Manic Moran

I have H3, Advanced Naval Warfare. Basically H2 with various pieces of code enabled, such as nuked and up to 8 players networked.

Haven't found another player with it though.

cyrusdvirus

Manic Moran wrote: »

I have H3, Advanced Naval Warfare. Basically H2 with various pieces of code enabled, such as nuked and up to 8 players networked.

Haven't found another player with it though.

H3 ANW is part of the purchase.
That's the one that opens with you being tasked to get 2 SSBNs to open sea along the San Juan strait, isn't it?

I had a quick look at it when i first got the disc, but am playing the original battle set at the moment The GIUK Gap in the Commanders edition version. One thing that still bugs me about the game is that there is no follow on from the previous scenario. Last night i defended Keflavik against a Soviet invasion fleet, and beat the snot out of them, for minimal losses. Next scenario, Keflavik was a soviet base.

There is a definite correlation between Larry Bond's literary career and the game though. He collaborated with Tom Clancy on Red Storm Rising, and Clancy has stated that he used the first battleset of Harpoon to game out the his convoy battles during that book.

Another book he (Bond) wrote, Cauldron can be seen in the EC2003 battlesets.

Manic Moran

Well, it seems I've been away for a while... as I check the website, it's up to v 3.9.4 so I'm downloading the patch now. Not sure it's quite the same ANW as Ultimate Edition has.

As I understand it, 'Commander's Edition', the full-colour one, is actually older than the monocolour version? That said, H3ANW seems to be choking a bit on my i7Core... need to downgrade!

NTM

cyrusdvirus

Yeah, 3.9.4 is the same one

From what i can see the full colour version is an 'enhanced' version of Harpoon Classic, with more up to date units, more realistic failures/misses/defensive capabilities etc and improved time compression and so on.

H3 looks like a complete re-write using the Harpoon Classic basic concept.

Looking at H3 i think i need to do that thing that i hate doing to get the full enjoyment from it....RTFM!!

Manic Moran

Meh. One of my Norwegian patrol boats just torpedoed itself.

Twits.

NTM

cyrusdvirus

Manic Moran wrote: »

Meh. One of my Norwegian patrol boats just torpedoed itself.

Twits.

NTM

HM(N)S Trinidad by any chance??

long range shooter

Manic Moran wrote: »

Meh. One of my Norwegian patrol boats just torpedoed itself.

Twits.

NTM

Skjold class by any chance:D