1940s-1950s School System Questions

heidiresk

Can someone answer the following questions for the time period 1940-50s:

1. What is Infants School? and what age do you attend?

2. National Primary Schools .... is that 1st Class to 6th class?
and what age do you start?

3. What are Leaving Certs? and what age do you take this?

4. Secondary Schools? what age?

Were any/all of the above mandatory?

Thanks ....

lottpaul

heidiresk wrote: »

Can someone answer the following questions for the time period 1940-50s:

1. What is Infants School? and what age do you attend?

2. National Primary Schools .... is that 1st Class to 6th class?
and what age do you start?

3. What are Leaving Certs? and what age do you take this?

4. Secondary Schools? what age?

Were any/all of the above mandatory?

Thanks ....

1 - Infants school was the name sometimes given to the Junior part of a National Primary school. In some places, especially in towns, most of the Catholic children went to an Infants school in the local Convent from ages 4/5 to 7/8 after which the boys and girls went their separate ways to single sex schools. Leaving Infants school usually coincided with receiving First Holy Communion.
2 - National Primary Schools were from Infants to 6th - or in thoses days even 7th - class. Children began at ages 4 or 5 and the normal cycle was 8 years but it was often extended to 9 or more. The reason for this in rural areas was that National School was the end of formal education for most children and 7th class was an attempt to provide additional education.
3 Leaving Cert was/is an examination taken at the end of Secondary school
4 Secondary school was from age 12/13 to 17 or 18 but in practice very few attended in the 1940s and 50s of those who did not all attended until they completed their Leaving cert

The only compulsory part was Primary School.

heidiresk

Thank you very much, as I am from the USA and trying to make sense of some of the terms I am coming across in my genealogy search. Your info is very helpful!

Jellybaby1

I would concur with what you say lottpaul but these rules only applied in the instances of Roman Catholic schools. Would you agree?

Skerries

yeah but that would be about 80-90% of schools at the time, no?

lottpaul

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I would concur with what you say lottpaul but these rules only applied in the instances of Roman Catholic schools. Would you agree?

I would only agree with regards to the Infants school/First Holy Communion part. It would have been unusual for C of I/Presby schools to have a Junior/Senior section but that aside all Primary schools operated under the "Rules for National Schools" as laid down by the Dept of Education.

Re Secondary schools there would have been little or no difference between most RC/C of I/VEC schools but private/independent schools of all faiths had the luxury of making up their much of their own rules and regulations.

heidiresk

Thank you for all of this information, the Irish Education System is/was somewhat different from ours.

I have a certificate that states "Passed the Third Year Intermediate."
issued by: Intermediate and University College, Dublin, 1953.

It is my understanding that the student (and Industrial School "inmate")
received this certificate at the age of 16 from Scoil Mhure.

Does this sound right?

lottpaul

The Intermediate Certificate was a state exam taken after 3 years in secondary school and in the days before compulsory education many students left school at this stage.
It was "Intermediate" between the Primary Certificate at the end of Primary school and the Leaving Cert at the end of Secondary school.

Given that the details you have above sound exactly right.

gbee

lottpaul wrote: »

3 Leaving Cert was/is an examination taken at the end of Secondary school
4 Secondary school was from age 12/13 to 17 or 18 but in practice very few attended in the 1940s and 50s of those who did not all attended until they completed their Leaving cert

The only compulsory part was Primary School.

And to add that Secondary School required fees or a scholarship, 'free' second level began in 1967 or so.

A leaving cert back then was like a BA from a University today. Even in the 70's a job applicant could be considered too educated with a leaving certificate.

Jellybaby1

lottpaul wrote: »

In some places, especially in towns, all of the children went to an Infants school in the local Convent from ages 4/5 to 7/8 after which the boys and girls went their separate ways to single sex schools. Leaving Infants school usually coincided with receiving First Holy Communion.

Skerries wrote: »

yeah but that would be about 80-90% of schools at the time, no?

That's right Skerries, but I just wanted to mention it as lottpaul did state "all of the children" see quote above. I find in a lot of history and genealogy threads the word 'all' is very often used but not always correct, I just thought it needed some clarification in case our American friend misunderstood.

pedroeibar1

heidiresk wrote: »

Can someone answer the following questions for the time period 1940-50s:

1. What is Infants School? and what age do you attend?

2. National Primary Schools .... is that 1st Class to 6th class?
and what age do you start?

3. What are Leaving Certs? and what age do you take this?

4. Secondary Schools? what age?

Were any/all of the above mandatory?

Thanks ....

To tidy up what has been said already and add (and correct;)) a bit -

heidiresk wrote: »

1. What is Infants School? and what age do you attend?

In US terminology ‘Infants School’ is equivalent to kindergarten. Children entered at age 4 into ‘Junior Infants’ and the following year entered ‘Senior Infants’. Colloquially they were known as ‘Low Babies’ and ‘High Babies’. Usually they were single sex, but in some rural schools – due to lack of numbers – they were mixed. From memory a pupil had to have reached 4 years in (March?) prior to entry in September. Mixed / single sex depended on the era and also religion (Catholic / Church of Ireland.)

heidiresk wrote: »

2. National Primary Schools .... is that 1st Class to 6th class? and what age do you start?

‘Primary’ is the equivalent of the US ‘Grade School’, entry aged 6 or 7; Catholics usually made their First Holy Communion near the end of 1st class, during May; again it mainly was single sex. Pupils progressed through to 6th class.
Education/school attendance was mandatory at primary school; the finishing exam was the ‘Primary Certificate’.
Secondary school started age +/- 12 in First year. At the end of 4th year - age 16-17, an exam called the ‘Intermediate Certificate’ was sat. From memory school attendance to Inter Cert became mandatory only in recent decades. After the Inter. Cert. some (often the less academic) pupils would leave to go to a technical school to pursue a trade training – electricians, etc. which also allowed for ‘day release’ to a master, to whom the student was apprenticed. The Inter Cert had a minimum of six subjects. In the late 1960s (+/-) two levels of each subject were introduced, Pass and Honours, the latter a little like AP in the US system. The level of education was the equivalent of Sophomore year in High School.

heidiresk wrote: »

3. What are Leaving Certs? and what age do you take this?

The Leaving Certificate (age 17-19) is the equivalent of the SATs in US Senior High. However, they have always been full written exams, never multiple choice, and are the basis of college entry. Six subjects are necessary.
Irish is compulsory to pass, and to gain entry to the National Universities; Latin was a requirement for entry to Trinity College Dublin until at least the early 1970’s and TCD also accepted an exam known as the ‘Matriculation’ (Matric) which was roughly the same as the Leaving Cert.


I don’t agree with Gbee above, the majority of secondary schools were free, in fact ‘free’ was the norm, only the better-off could attend fee-paying secondary schools. A leaving Cert in 1970 was exactly that – again from memory – in that era about 20 % or so of students went to university ( US ‘College’) whereas today a much higher percentage goes on to third level.

Skerries

when did 4th year become optional based on the school they went to?
Our school didn't have one and a lot of others in the area either but I see now it is becoming the norm for students to do 4th year and as such kids are leaving school later even up to ages 19-20
also was low babies and high babies a year each or only 6 months each?

gbee

Two little points: Secondary School was considered 'College' Boys did three years to Intermediate and Girls did four years, the reshuffle of this in relatively recent times created the transition year or gap year ~ which is now being abolished.

The free secondary schools would have been Tech Schools or industrial schools where a limited education was provided, Irish, English Maths, Woodwork, Metalwork. The criteria was to produce student for manual labour and factory work.

The Fee paying secondary schools [Colleges] provided Irish, English, Maths, French, Spanish, Latin, German, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Sports, Drama, Accountancy and a few more, and were designed for preparation for University [Today often now called colleges] or as heir to an existing business.

pinkypinky

An amendment:

When you became 4 vs when you started school was based on the school you attended. I started school 3 weeks after my 4th birthday but I knew other people who had to be 4 before July to start in September.

Junior/Senior Infants (low & high babies) are full academic years from 1st Sept - 30th June.

I think what we're seeing from this thread is that things were far from uniform (pardon the pun - heidiresk - uniforms are the standard in Ireland and I only know of 2 schools that didn't have one) at school in Ireland.

lottpaul

The practice for starting school varied hugely. Some schools allowed children to start anytime after their 4th birthday - (numbers enrolled were checked every 3 months by the Department of Education and a school might need an extra pupil or two to retain a teacher etc and so welcomed pupils at anytime).
This could complicate matters when trying to track a persons school career as the school year officially begins on July 1st for Primary schools. (Until the 1970s it was common for pupils to change classes on July 1st and for summer holidays to begin a couple of weeks later.) So if a child started Junior Infants in e.g. January they might be "promoted" to the next class level on July 1st with their classmates, despite having spent just 6 months in Junior Infants.

pedroeibar1

gbee wrote: »

Two little points: Secondary School was considered 'College' Boys did three years to Intermediate and Girls did four years, the reshuffle of this in relatively recent times created the transition year or gap year ~ which is now being abolished.

The free secondary schools would have been Tech Schools or industrial schools where a limited education was provided, Irish, English Maths, Woodwork, Metalwork. The criteria was to produce student for manual labour and factory work.

The Fee paying secondary schools [Colleges] provided Irish, English, Maths, French, Spanish, Latin, German, Biology, Chemistry, Physics, Sports, Drama, Accountancy and a few more, and were designed for preparation for University [Today often now called colleges] or as heir to an existing business.

Where are you getting your information? It is quite wrong.:rolleyes:

The words 'going to college' for attending secondary school are not now and never were used. College = university.

Free secondary schools were and remain totally different to 'technical' schools; free sec schools taught the same subjects as fee-paying schools and academically were just as good as or often better than them. Consider the North Mon in Cork, O'Connell's or Synge St. in Dublin, just to mention three, who sent hundreds of pupils to college.

In the Christian Brothers, the 'Schools' were free ed, the 'colleges' were fee-paying, as in CBC Cork, or CBC Monkstown, compared to CBS North Monastery or CBS Dun Laoghaire. No matter which you attended, you went to 'school' never 'college' and went on to 'Uni.' or as some called it 'College'

Transition year was started in the mid 70's, attained considerable impetus in the 1980's and went 'viral' in the mid 90's. It was cynically believed in the 80's (when there was a big push) to be a means of keeping +/-70k students off Social Welfare, during a recession, that's all. Mary O'Rourke was Min. of Ed. if memory serves.

An 'Industrial School' often was totally different to what you are suggesting.

This is going totally off topic to what the OP has requested (schooling in 1940-1950s) so there is no point in continuing.

Jellybaby1

I myself started school in 'Babies' at age 3 years. I loved school, however, at age 13 years after 7th class, my mother couldn't afford to send me to secondary so I attended a 'commercial college' learning shorthand, typing etc., and began working full time at age 15 years. So I suppose officially my education ended at age 13 years. I believe I was better educated than my children who stayed in Secondary up to 18 years. I know more about history and geography than they were ever taught, and they still come to me for answers to their questions on the world. Gives me a great sense of achievement!

gbee

I started school circa 1959, only went to Coláiste Chríost Rí after free secondary education was started, I was amongst the 1St to avail of this opportunity [circa 1967] my older siblings would have been in school shortly after the war about 1946.

They either either went to the Tech or South Mon ~ from my own brother's stories ~ I never wanted to go to that school, but enough of that!

I was personally heading for the School of Commerce or the Sawmill Street.

The transition years was introduced more as part of the equality act than an education part, girls had one year longer to intermediate.

P. Breathnach

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

...
The words 'going to college' for attending secondary school are not now and never were used. College = university.

For city folk, particularly middle class city folk, that is true (I'm not getting at anybody: I grew up as middle class city folk, and that was my own lexicon). Elsewhere in Ireland, "college" often meant a second-level school: think of preparatory colleges, diocesan colleges, and so on.

Free secondary schools were and remain totally different to 'technical' schools; free sec schools taught the same subjects as fee-paying schools and academically were just as good as or often better than them. Consider the North Mon in Cork, O'Connell's or Synge St. in Dublin, just to mention three, who sent hundreds of pupils to college.

In the Christian Brothers, the 'Schools' were free ed, the 'colleges' were fee-paying, as in CBC Cork, or CBC Monkstown, compared to CBS North Monastery or CBS Dun Laoghaire.

Prior to the introduction of free post-primary education, it was the norm for secondary schools to charge fees. The level of the fee was comparatively modest; many scholarships were awarded; enforcement of collection was not rigorous, especially on families with limited means. In general, fees were not a major barrier.

gbee wrote: »

...
The transition years was introduced more as part of the equality act than an education part, girls had one year longer to intermediate.

It was not a general pattern that girls took for years to the Inter Cert, while boys were brought through in three. Most schools completed the junior cycle in three years, but some took four. There were boys' schools among those that took four years.

heidiresk

With regards to the time era I refer to: 1940 - 50s, I just want to confirm, that most likely

1. The secondary school was a Paid for School
2. It is possible that students varied in ages by 1 or 2 years in the same class.
3. That the students were coming out of 6th or 7th class of primary school prior to entering the secondary school.

Thank you again for all the responses.

pinkypinky

Yep, I'd concur with your summary.

P. Breathnach

heidiresk wrote: »

With regards to the time era I refer to: 1940 - 50s, I just want to confirm, that most likely

1. The secondary school was a Paid for School

Probably. But also probably inexpensive.

2. It is possible that students varied in ages by 1 or 2 years in the same class.

Yes.

3. That the students were coming out of 6th or 7th class of primary school prior to entering the secondary school.

Almost certainly 6th class, and probably aged 12-13. Seventh class was provided for those not transferring to second level education. At that time, the minimum school-leaving age was 14.

I am a bit worried about this:

I have a certificate that states "Passed the Third Year Intermediate."
issued by: Intermediate and University College, Dublin, 1953.

The certifying body for the Intermediate Certificate was the Department of Education, and the verbal formula "third year intermediate" would not have been used. Neither do I believe that there ever was such a body of institution as the "Intermediate and University College, Dublin". It all seems a bit irregular.

It is my understanding that the student (and Industrial School "inmate")
received this certificate at the age of 16 from Scoil Mhure.

Sixteen is about the right age for the award of the Intermediate Certificate. I am a bit concerned about "Scoil Mhuire" if your location is Dublin. There is no Scoil Mhuire operating in Dublin at second level, and I don't think there was one in the 1950s. There are a few outside Dublin.

heidiresk

The actual school the student attended was Scoil Mhuire in Ballinasloe, run by the Sisters of Mercy.

P. Breathnach

heidiresk wrote: »

The actual school the student attended was Scoil Mhuire in Ballinasloe, run by the Sisters of Mercy.

That school exists, and has existed since 1918: http://www.ardscoilmhuire.com/history.php.

I am still mistrustful of the certificate. It seems a bit makey-uppy to me. Does it list subjects taken, and say what the level of success was in each (Honours, Pass, or Fail)?

Jellybaby1

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Prior to the introduction of free post-primary education, it was the norm for secondary schools to charge fees. The level of the fee was comparatively modest; many scholarships were awarded; enforcement of collection was not rigorous, especially on families with limited means. In general, fees were not a major barrier.

What would you say was 'modest'? I know paying any school fees was beyond our family. At that young age I would not have been consulted about any of this anyway. Would the information regarding non-collection of the fees have been widely known do you think? This makes depressing reading for me personally.

gbee

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Would the information regarding non-collection of the fees have been widely known do you think? This makes depressing reading for me personally.

Speculation, probably unknown. At primary, when one arrived without the milk money or whatever else it was, the hapless student was made to stand in a corner or by the wall for a period of time. So I guess you can make a guess beyond that.

It's not as depressing as it sounds. A person with a primary could get a good job. an Intercert was middle management potential and a leaving cert was floor manager level at least and most probably an office job.

As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, the value of a leaving cert was very high right up to the mid 1970's and carried perhaps more weight than a University BA would today.

P. Breathnach

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

What would you say was 'modest'?

In the 1950s (before I personally had arrived in the "big school", I would think it was of the order of £5-£10 a year for the majority of second level schools.

I know paying any school fees was beyond our family.

Yes, I acknowledge that even fees that I described as "comparatively modest" would have been too much for many families. There were also other financial barriers to overcome: transport (particularly burdensome for some rural families), books, uniform, etc.

At that young age I would not have been consulted about any of this anyway.

Different times! Not only not consulted, but probably not be given any great awareness of the problems parents faced.

Would the information regarding non-collection of the fees have been widely known do you think?

Some people would have known it and taken advantage of it. I suspect that others, perhaps more deserving of such indulgence, did not know. I can easily conjure up images of families that might be described as the aspirational poor who would not think of sending a child to the local secondary school and failing to pay the full fee.

This makes depressing reading for me personally.

It was quite a different world in the 1950s, with different good and bad things.

heidiresk

Examination held in Summer, 1953 by the Intermediate and University College, Dublin

passed the "Third Year Intermediate"

Yes, the certificate states Geography and French with Honours, and Irish, English and Drawing.

P. Caffney , Principal

P. Breathnach

That is not an Intermediate Certificate as the term is normally understood in Ireland. That would have been issued by the Department of Education as part of a national examination and certification scheme.

Google does not give any hits for the Intermediate and University College, Dublin. The title is pretentious, with echoes of University College Dublin, a bona fide proper university institution. My guess is that this was a small privately-run examining board of no significant status. I don't expect that this examination was taken instead of the state examination, but think it was a waypoint - perhaps on completion of three years of a four-year cycle.

It's not a great result. The student was probably taking seven or eight subjects, and passed in only five. History was a compulsory study, and either mathematics or arithmetic. Perhaps, in the light of disappointing results, she did not continue in school to attempt the state examination.

CeannRua

OP, would it be possible for you to scan a copy of the cert so that we can see it? But suggest you obscure the student's name and any other identifying information. Are there any institutional crests on it?

heidiresk

here is the document: