Stratification in Junior Infants

Amber96

Hi All,

My daughter started school in September and recently I have found out that there are "good tables" and "bad tables" in her class.

The teacher also gives rewards of sweets every week for the best table and sweets are given out regularly for the best picture in art club.

Is this normal practice for 4 year olds? Is it good practice?

I am concerned that my daughter is being categorised as a bad pupil already and I am not happy about her being "motivated" by the promise of sweets.

byhookorbycrook

I presume it's the best table, not a good and bad?Working as a group to do well is not a bad thing. It makes children more aware of others, how good or not so good behaviour impacts on more than themselves.

As to a sweet on a friday, I don't think it's going to lead to obesity!!Teacher is paying for the reward out of her own pocket, sweets are always welcome-and cheap!!

maryk123

my son is also in junior infants and they are all moved around so there is never the same kids at the same table and they get to know all the other kids.

they too get rewards, kids bring in party bags etc. I have often given in some bits and bobs - it doesnt do kids any harm and all they get is 1 or 2 sweets thats all. I wouldnt worry to much about it.

Amber96

No, It's not just a good table, my understanding is that the tables are graded. The teacher told me my child was a good student stating that that was why she was at the red table, but, she said, she is good enough to get to the yellow table.

My child told me a couple of weeks later that she had been moved from the red table to the blue table because she misbehaved. And the called the blue table the "messers' table".

In terms of the sweets, its not just one, it is a small bag of jellies and my daughter has won them a few times. I'm not concerned about obesity I just thought there would be better ways to motivate kids.

soap1978

if we put ur kid at the best table will u stop overreacting since its only junior infants,hate to see when they get older and r be bold,never the kids fault.

Amber96

I'm not looking for my child to be at the top table, I'm simply asking is it a good thing for kids to be pigeonholed from such a young age.

Does anyone know of any research on this?

byhookorbycrook

I think you need to talk to the teacher and get all the facts. I would also mention that you don't want your child to have sweets.

ShamoBuc

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I think you need to talk to the teacher and get all the facts. I would also mention that you don't want your child to have sweets.

Not the best thing to say IMHO. The child does well and does not get a sweetie, while the rest do, not nice for the kid surely. It's only a sweetie - unless you have severe reservations - leave it alone.
Ask about the tables and I'm sure the teacher will explain to to you the rationale being used.
I give every child one sweet on the last friday of every month. Some do it every week for student of the week. Some don't do it at all. I wouldn't personally see it as being a problem. I'm sure they are probably the natural confectionary sweets or similar ones.

Ayla

Amber96 wrote: »

My daughter started school in September and recently I have found out that there are "good tables" and "bad tables" in her class.

As others have suggested I would get more clarification on this. Then, if there really is a heirarchy of tables based on performance/grades/behaviour I would have a big issue with that. Nothing like pegging kids against kids from age 4! :mad:

The teacher also gives rewards of sweets every week for the best table and sweets are given out regularly for the best picture in art club.

I think the other posters have missed the fact that you've said only the "best" table/picture gets the sweets. From what I gathered of your post, you see nothing wrong with your child getting sugar, but your concern (rightly so, imo) stems from the fact that only some (ie: the "best") kids get the sweets. If that's the case, again, I would raise some hell. At age 4, it should be an all or nothing policy. Because who's to decide what the "best" picture drawn by a 4-yr old is anyway?

Is this normal practice for 4 year olds? Is it good practice? I am concerned that my daughter is being categorised as a bad pupil already and I am not happy about her being "motivated" by the promise of sweets.

Based only on what you've said, and assuming it is as you've said it is, I would not think this would be best (or even good) practice. It will serve no other purpose other than instilling feelings of superiority/inferiority among the students, which can easily have knock on effects for the confidence of their 4-yr old minds!

Sweetpea101

A chat to the teacher would be a good idea, get all the facts, and maybe go away and have a think and go back and have a second chat if you feel it necessary. I have a prize box, each child gets a prize when they have ten stickers and the stickers are given for all sorts of reasons, including improved behaviour etc. In my prize box are pencils (sparkly, coloured, fancy looking), rubbers, parers, and little bags of jellies - and would you believe they never choose the jellies - I'm always shocked!!! I give the prize winner the choice in order to ensure that it really is a prize to them - they love the sparkly pencils!

My groups are strategically arranged, there are a few personalities in the class that require managing, I've them spread out, also there are children who need extra help, they are with bright intelligent hard-working children, I have some language children who I have sitting beside chatty children - but the groups are all mixed ability groups with no more than their fair share of issues! I always spend time thinking carefully about the groupings and monitoring if they're working, I imagine most teachers do too.

Amber96

Thanks for the advice guys. We are meeting the school this week and we will listen to what they have to say. Ayala's take on this is correct, I don't have a problem with a couple of sweets, its their use as a motivational technique to reward "good" kids that I'd be concerned about.

Likewise my concern about the grading of tables is that I think it could be very devicive at 4 years of age. Hopefully I've got it wrong but I'll let you know after we meet.

KittyeeTrix

I definitely would have a problem with children being divided into tables based on their ability in the class. It would be okay if they weren't aware that this was the case at such a young age. I would worry about the effect it would have on them.
Of course this depends on the child.

In my house when I was younger I would strive to prove the teacher wrong who suggested I would not be able for a particular subject at a higher grade whereas my sister would just go "feck it, the teacher says I'm not able, therefore I mustn't be able".......

My son for example is Dyspraxic and is highly intelligent (top IQ) in his class but his handwriting is terrible. Based on homework and writing exercises alone he would be at the table for the poorer performing kids in the class under such a system. Surely, this would do him no good in the long term if his best efforts were continually judged not to be good enough??

@Sweetpea101.............your system sounds pretty good to be fair:)

byhookorbycrook

Kittyee, as an aside, have you considered CTYI for your son?Is he getting resource hours?

KittyeeTrix

I don't know what CTYI is sorry but he is getting resource hours and is doing well in school...

He's got very advanced language skills and is a whizz at the maths but the handwriting is his main drawback.

byhookorbycrook

Pm-ing you, Kittee.

Amber96

Well, we had our meeting and our impression was correct. The pupils are grouped at tables based on their ability and they remain at those tables for all subjects. When I pointed out that this is something of a contradiction i.e. surely the kids have different abilities in different subjects, I was told that they are grouped according to their ability in English.

Given that there are a number of non-national kids in my daughters class, I find this incredible.

I believe that the policy is likely to lead to kids at the lower tables having lower self esteem and kids at the higher tables forming cliques. The school have said they will be mindful of my daughter, etc. but I am not happy about it and I am not sure how I should deal with it after mid term.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

byhookorbycrook

I wouldn't be a fan of this at all and am most surprised that any teacher would put infants in ability groups based on one subject area in this day and age. In our school children move tables at least once a month so there are no ability all-day groups. I'm not sure what my next step would be, does the teacher see your concerns?

Amber96

I think she thinks my concerns are confined to my daughter's wellbeing and, perhaps predictably, she offered to put my child at the top table. I care deeply about my child's school experience but I don't think it would be right for me to just accept that and walk away. I don't think its fair on the other kids. Having said that, I don't think I am going to be able to get them to change their system.

byhookorbycrook

Do you know if this is school-wide or just in this particular classroom?

timewilltell

Amber96 wrote: »

I think she thinks my concerns are confined to my daughter's wellbeing and, perhaps predictably, she offered to put my child at the top table. I care deeply about my child's school experience but I don't think it would be right for me to just accept that and walk away. I don't think its fair on the other kids. Having said that, I don't think I am going to be able to get them to change their system.

Oooh i don't like this at all! The fact that she offered to put your child at the top table shows how little integrity this system has!

Junior Infants like, I just don't think that it is a class that this kind of seperation should begin at, abilities often change, but children can be left with the stigma that they are in fact not as good as others. Young children are very discerning.

byhookorbycrook

I was told that they are grouped according to their ability in English.

I'd love to know how this abilty is measured by the teacher at this stage and how does it impact on children,say ,who have English as a first language but have speech and language issues,possible verbal dyspraxia or dyslexia. Then the children with English as an additional language are all considered unfit for the "top table",so unless you have fluent English you are not considered academically able?The more I think about this, the more concerned about this I become. Has the teacher even heard of multiple intelligences?

afkasurfjunkie

so does that mean that the table arrangement is never changed at all during the year? i would find that odd. most teachers switch the children around regularly to avoid cliques forming and to seperate children that dont work well together or just to help the children get to know one another and make friends.
this thread reminds me very much of an episode in the last series of desperate housewives where susan is trying to figure out which group her son is in because the teacher uses animal group names for the different groups.

marley123

My oldest is in Junior Infants & the tables are colour coded - but NOT on an ability basis, every couple of wks they change to make sure the kids are socially interacting with everyone. . For good behaviour etc the table is awarded stars & at the end of the the wk the table with the most stars gets a little treat - like 2 sweets. I see no problem in this OTHER than my little girl constantly being at the same table of possibly not the best behaved child because she has a good effect on his behaviour.

Mr.Wemmick

Amber96 wrote: »

Well, we had our meeting and our impression was correct. The pupils are grouped at tables based on their ability and they remain at those tables for all subjects. When I pointed out that this is something of a contradiction i.e. surely the kids have different abilities in different subjects, I was told that they are grouped according to their ability in English.

Given that there are a number of non-national kids in my daughters class, I find this incredible.

I believe that the policy is likely to lead to kids at the lower tables having lower self esteem and kids at the higher tables forming cliques. The school have said they will be mindful of my daughter, etc. but I am not happy about it and I am not sure how I should deal with it after mid term.

Any suggestions would be appreciated.

I would ask them what their school policy is regarding dealing with low self esteem as a result of being banded in a low ability group.. and how the children are evaluated and assessed in all the subject areas not just English. For example, would a child know if they were excelling in a subject other than literacy? Do the children know that they are only judged by their English and why this is the case? Do the parents all know?

As a parent, I am beginning to wonder, in some schools, how on earth they come up with such poor curriculum management and teaching for early years education. Why is it never explained to very young children that they might be behind because the older children in the class find the work easier and can cope better with all aspects of school life.. and being behind with classwork is mostly because of maturity and not a sign of poor intelligence. Streaming children into ability groups is all very well but when it is managed poorly it is a disaster and often has a negative affect on children's confidence/self esteem that can impact their experience of education and learning for years to come.. The hope is that you put your children into a school with a solid and responsible policy on differentiation and have a teacher for your child who is on the ball and held accountable for her/his classroom management by senior staff.

As for giving the children sweets as a treat.. :rolleyes:

Any Dentist parents out there reading this?