2 versus 3 Quality Sessions per Week

dev123

Hi all,

Just wondering what the general consensus is on the number of quality sessions per week that should be completed during marathon training?

I am looking at a twelve week plan * that I found on the net and it has a medium long run (10 miles), a fartlek session and tempo intervals in the first week followed by a medium long run (12 miles), hill reps and tempo intervals of 10 and 5 mins in the second week?

If I remember correctly from previous posts 2 quality sessions per week is the norm surrounded by easy and recovery runs. Are long runs considered quality sessions, thus making three quality sessions per week in this 12 week programme?

All input greatly appreciated

* I have no links to the nutritional company, just looking for a 12 week plan for Limerick.

TFBubendorfer

It's an individual thing, and entirely depends on how quickly you can recover from workouts.

Three workouts per week would be fairly typical if the type of workout is mixed. Seeing e.g. one tempo, one interval, one long run in one week is very common.

On the other hand, if you feel you can't recover between workouts then you need to cut them. That's especially the case for older runners, but, as I said, it's very much down to the individual.

dev123

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

It's an individual thing, and entirely depends on how quickly you can recover from workouts.

Three workouts per week would be fairly typical if the type of workout is mixed. Seeing e.g. one tempo, one interval, one long run in one week is very common.

On the other hand, if you feel you can't recover between workouts then you need to cut them. That's especially the case for older runners, but, as I said, it's very much down to the individual.

Thanks TFB. After following a Daniels Plan, which only had 2 quality sessions per week, I was surprised to see three sessions in the plan I posted.

While I would like to be able to handle 3 session per week in terms of improving I think I will need to keep a close eye on recovery. I do like the mix of sessions with hills, cruise intervals and fartlek prescribed in the first 2 weeks. Hopefully I will be able to handle it but will cut out one of the mid-week sessions if not.

menoscemo

dev123 wrote: »

Hi all,

Just wondering what the general consensus is on the number of quality sessions per week that should be completed during marathon training?

I am looking at a twelve week plan * that I found on the net and it has a medium long run (10 miles), a fartlek session and tempo intervals in the first week followed by a medium long run (12 miles), hill reps and tempo intervals of 10 and 5 mins in the second week?

If I remember correctly from previous posts 2 quality sessions per week is the norm surrounded by easy and recovery runs. Are long runs considered quality sessions, thus making three quality sessions per week in this 12 week programme?

All input greatly appreciated

* I have no links to the nutritional company, just looking for a 12 week plan for Limerick.

personally I wouldn't consider a medium long run of 10-15 miles to be a 'session' unless it comtained some pace miles (whether HPM or PMP).

TFBubendorfer

dev123 wrote: »

Thanks TFB. After following a Daniels Plan, which only had 2 quality sessions per week, I was surprised to see three sessions in the plan I posted.

I see, but keep in mind that Daniels has some absolutely brutal workouts in his sessions (at least in his advanced plans), and you could even argue that his long runs with those long miles at tempo pace count as 2 workouts in 1.

As menoscemo said, it may just be a matter of perception. Is a midweek medium-long run a workout or not?

When I was training with a coach last year he very much chopped and changed the schedule depending on how I recovered from sessions. Some weeks had 3 workouts, some 2 and some only 1 (e.g. the week after Ballycotton).

shels4ever

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I see, but keep in mind that Daniels has some absolutely brutal workouts in his sessions (at least in his advanced plans), and you could even argue that his long runs with those long miles at tempo pace count as 2 workouts in 1.

As menoscemo said, it may just be a matter of perception. Is a midweek medium-long run a workout or not?

When I was training with a coach last year he very much chopped and changed the schedule depending on how I recovered from sessions. Some weeks had 3 workouts, some 2 and some only 1 (e.g. the week after Ballycotton).

Any run that’s fundamental to your plan is a key session in my books. So I'd included the weekend long run and mid week medium long run both as sessions.

YFlyer

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

When I was training with a coach last year he very much chopped and changed the schedule depending on how I recovered from sessions. Some weeks had 3 workouts, some 2 and some only 1 (e.g. the week after Ballycotton).

Sign of a good coach.

dev123

menoscemo wrote: »

personally I wouldn't consider a medium long run of 10-15 miles to be a 'session' unless it comtained some pace miles (whether HPM or PMP).

I suppose my concept of a session is something that goes towards improving my running ability. It is my understanding that to teach the body to burn fat an easy runs of 90mins or over is required, which for me 10 miles is. A 15 mile run would be 3/4 of the longest LSR in the majority of training programmes.

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

I see, but keep in mind that Daniels has some absolutely brutal workouts in his sessions (at least in his advanced plans), and you could even argue that his long runs with those long miles at tempo pace count as 2 workouts in 1.

As menoscemo said, it may just be a matter of perception. Is a midweek medium-long run a workout or not?

When I was training with a coach last year he very much chopped and changed the schedule depending on how I recovered from sessions. Some weeks had 3 workouts, some 2 and some only 1 (e.g. the week after Ballycotton).

I've gotten injured just reading the Daniel's Elite plan!!! Daniel's does conceal an element of tempo work in his quality sessions. I can remember 12 mile mid-week sessions with tempo elements followed by 20 mile weekend sessions with tempo segements.

Easy running will build up my aerobic capacity but a 5 mile run won't teach my body to burn fat. Thats where the mid-week medium long run comes in to play, as I understand it.

shels4ever wrote: »

Any run that’s fundamental to your plan is a key session in my books. So I'd included the weekend long run and mid week medium long run both as sessions.

Would recovery runs be considered key sessions as they allow you to take on the next session in better shape?

shels4ever

dev123 wrote: »

Would recovery runs be considered key sessions as they allow you to take on the next session in better shape?

They are important but wouldnt count them as a session as don't have a specific target ie X miles or Y pace. It just about getting around, But on most runs you should ask yourself what the aim of the run it before going out the door, it does help preventing the recovery runs getting to fast.

menoscemo

dev123 wrote: »

I suppose my concept of a session is something that goes towards improving my running ability. It is my understanding that to teach the body to burn fat an easy runs of 90mins or over is required, which for me 10 miles is. A 15 mile run would be 3/4 of the longest LSR in the majority of training programmes.

Fair enough, but by that definition, every run is a key session as every run goes towards improving your running ability IMO.

For me a quality session is one that leaves me quite fatigued and requiring a recovery day the next day (usually a recovery run rather than rest). I would never do 2 quality runs in a row as a rule.
I would quite happily do an easy 10-12 miles one day and then an interval/tempo session the following day.

dev123

menoscemo wrote: »

Fair enough, but by that definition, every run is a key session as every run goes towards improving your running ability IMO.

For me a quality session is one that leaves me quite fatigued and requiring a recovery day the next day (usually a recovery run rather than rest). I would never do 2 quality runs in a row as a rule.
I would quite happily do an easy 10-12 miles one day and then an interval/tempo session the following day.

I would agree that every run goes towards improving running ability, be it lactate threshold, general aerobic or VO2max but a key session will give you more bang for your buck.

Easy miles are the most basic running miles that we can do and will build aerobic capacity but the quality sessions are what make us improve at a faster rate.

I think it is relative.For someone knocking out 27 mile runs at the weekend 10-12 mile runs are at the lower end of the scale and are more manageable and require little recovery.

menoscemo

dev123 wrote: »

I would agree that every run goes towards improving running ability, be it lactate threshold, general aerobic or VO2max but a key session will give you more bang for your buck.

Easy miles are the most basic running miles that we can do and will build aerobic capacity but the quality sessions are what make us improve at a faster rate.

I think it is relative.For someone knocking out 27 mile runs at the weekend 10-12 mile runs are at the lower end of the scale and are more manageable and require little recovery.

It's really a matter of definition yeah.
But even a standard marathon plan like P&D would have you doing GA/easy runs over 10 miles 2-3 times per week (including LSR) before any VO2max/LT sessions are included.

average_runner

For me i consider my Tuesday and Thursday night with club my quality sessions, with track/hill work on Tuesday and tempo on Thursday.

Mondays and Fridays are easy to recovery runs and then Sat is my long run with some fast miles getting added soon.

Raighne

dev123 wrote: »

Hi all,

Just wondering what the general consensus is on the number of quality sessions per week that should be completed during marathon training?

I am looking at a twelve week plan * that I found on the net and it has a medium long run (10 miles), a fartlek session and tempo intervals in the first week followed by a medium long run (12 miles), hill reps and tempo intervals of 10 and 5 mins in the second week?

If I remember correctly from previous posts 2 quality sessions per week is the norm surrounded by easy and recovery runs. Are long runs considered quality sessions, thus making three quality sessions per week in this 12 week programme?

All input greatly appreciated

* I have no links to the nutritional company, just looking for a 12 week plan for Limerick.

Was drawn to respond to this as we actually partner with the "nutritional company" in question and through it I've had the good fortune to talk to Bruce Tulloh and you're in good hands with his marathon programme.

Generally, I agree with all the other posters that it is individual what you consider quality session and how many you should do. As a general rule, the more aerobic fitness you have already built and the more easy aerobic running you buffer around your quality sessions, the more of them you can take. But individual recovery patterns exist even within this general principle. We try to work hard early in the programme so we can do 3 quality sessions and a long run (for those who train 7 days per week) when we get to the faster, heavily anaerobic training, which takes longer to recover from. Even with a good background, some people cannot recover with less than 48 hours between such bouts, so you need to go on a bit of a journey of discovery and try your way through it.

Tulloh's programmes, however, begin with workouts that are largely aerobic even when they are quality work: if you look at week 1, you've got a fartlek (largely aerobic), short threshold repeats (high aerobic/lightly anaerobic) and steady (high aerobic) in addition to the long runs. These workouts are an entirely different kettle of fish from say 2x interval sessions and 1x tempo run and you can expect to recover much quicker if you execute them correctly.

The 40 sec hill reps in week 2 need a bit of explanation because they are not what they may appear to be at first glance: you should do these at around 10k intensity, at most, so fast but not sprinting. Your focus should be on good strong form (running tall, good drive from the arms, no zig-zagging). When done like this they have great value early in a marathon programme. When not, they can be damaging at worst or largely useless at best.

BeepBeep67

Don't get caught up in needing to fit everything into a 7 day week, think in cycles - a cycle can be 6 days / 9 days / 10 days - whatever works for you!

dev123

Raighne wrote: »

Was drawn to respond to this as we actually partner with the "nutritional company" in question and through it I've had the good fortune to talk to Bruce Tulloh and you're in good hands with his marathon programme.

Generally, I agree with all the other posters that it is individual what you consider quality session and how many you should do. As a general rule, the more aerobic fitness you have already built and the more easy aerobic running you buffer around your quality sessions, the more of them you can take. But individual recovery patterns exist even within this general principle. We try to work hard early in the programme so we can do 3 quality sessions and a long run (for those who train 7 days per week) when we get to the faster, heavily anaerobic training, which takes longer to recover from. Even with a good background, some people cannot recover with less than 48 hours between such bouts, so you need to go on a bit of a journey of discovery and try your way through it.

Tulloh's programmes, however, begin with workouts that are largely aerobic even when they are quality work: if you look at week 1, you've got a fartlek (largely aerobic), short threshold repeats (high aerobic/lightly anaerobic) and steady (high aerobic) in addition to the long runs. These workouts are an entirely different kettle of fish from say 2x interval sessions and 1x tempo run and you can expect to recover much quicker if you execute them correctly.

The 40 sec hill reps in week 2 need a bit of explanation because they are not what they may appear to be at first glance: you should do these at around 10k intensity, at most, so fast but not sprinting. Your focus should be on good strong form (running tall, good drive from the arms, no zig-zagging). When done like this they have great value early in a marathon programme. When not, they can be damaging at worst or largely useless at best.

Thanks for the feedback Raighne. Glad to hear that there is credibility behind the training plan and that I am not following the ravings of a mad lunatic!!!!

I probably would have gone at the hill session faster than 10k so will try and keep the pace a bit slower. With 8 reps I would probably calve if I go out any quicker.

The only down side to following the plan is that it is posted on the blog in 2 week blocks - I can't see how intense it is going to get or whether there will be any prescribed half marathon or 10k races included in the plan. The suspense is killing me!!!

And what if the poster just stops posting on the blog?!?!? My plan goes out the window. I might have to give you a a shout Raighne to see if you can get your hands on it seeing as you have an "in" with said "nutritional company"

BeepBeep67 wrote: »

Don't get caught up in needing to fit everything into a 7 day week, think in cycles - a cycle can be 6 days / 9 days / 10 days - whatever works for you!

I'd never really looked at it that way. Out of curiosity, are there any training plans that do not follow the standard 7 day week cycle or do people take existing 7 day plans and break down out into longer or shorter cycles?