2 Med runs V 1 Long run

jfh

Hi all, I know there's a few marathon experts here so could someone possible give advice on the following.
Firstly i want to improve endurance as i fall to pieces after 14 miles.
I've been running 40 miles consistently for the last 6 months, mainly 10km training so the long run would have been 10 miles. no more.
i've a marathon coming up in May and want to concentrate on that.

So after all that, my question is would 2 med runs say 13 miles on saturday and 12 sunday be better than one 18-19 mile.

I've gone up to 15 so far and was hoping to up it a mile every week, then drop it for the 10 mile races i've entered.
thanks

Clearlier

IMO the two medium runs are better for general conditioning but the long run would be more important when specifically preparing for a marathon.

If you have been consistently running 40mpw for 6 months and you're looking to run a marathon in May you might find the schedules in Advanced Marathoning by Pfitzinger and Douglas interesting. It has a 12 week schedule starting out at 35 miles for the first week and peaking at 55. If you have never run a marathon before it's unlikely that you could put together a better plan that what's in that book.

Krusty_Clown

jfh wrote: »

Would 2 med runs say 13 miles on saturday and 12 sunday be better than one 18-19 mile.

All of the above! As Clearlier suggested, P&D's 55mpw program could be right up your alley, but expect to see a few 20 mile runs in the schedule.

Larry Brent

Better than your two options IMO would be a med long run mid week and a long run at the weekend.

YFlyer

You will need to increase your weekly mileage in conjunction with the long run.

jfh

Larry Brent wrote: »

Better than your two options IMO would be a med long run mid week and a long run at the weekend.

larry, what would you call a med long run? stuck for time on the week days so trying to fit milage in on the weekends.
i have been doing a 6 * 1 mile @ 6MM session mid week as well as another hardish hilly 10 miler. would that not be enough?

jfh

YFlyer wrote: »

You will need to increase your weekly mileage in conjunction with the long run.

yeah i'm trying to get over the 50 miles but it's hit and miss, but def getting over the 40.

jfh

Clearlier wrote: »

IMO the two medium runs are better for general conditioning but the long run would be more important when specifically preparing for a marathon.

If you have been consistently running 40mpw for 6 months and you're looking to run a marathon in May you might find the schedules in Advanced Marathoning by Pfitzinger and Douglas interesting. It has a 12 week schedule starting out at 35 miles for the first week and peaking at 55. If you have never run a marathon before it's unlikely that you could put together a better plan that what's in that book.

hi Clearlier, i invested in both that book & the daniels book, but i'm terrible at following schedules, because i train with another lad 2 days a week and he dictates what the session is as he's much better. I have been looking at a few posters on here aiming for similiar time about 2:55 and trying to match their runs.But saying that i will check out that advanced marathoning book again. thanks

jfh

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

All of the above! As Clearlier suggested, P&D's 55mpw program could be right up your alley, but expect to see a few 20 mile runs in the schedule.

krusty i know that your a fan of P&D, worked alright for you, i see you can fit in a tempo sessions during lunch, i've tried that a few times and i'm panting & sweating back at my desk for the afternoon, not sure if i'm up to that.

i'd find it difficult to go out on a wed and run 15 miles, thought the daniels plan had less milage higher tempo sessions so was going down that route.

Larry Brent

jfh wrote: »

larry, what would you call a med long run?

Can't answer that, will vary based on experience, ability and what you're doing the rest of the week.

jfh wrote: »

i have been doing a 6 * 1 mile @ 6MM session mid week as well as another hardish hilly 10 miler. would that not be enough?

That's more than enough if you are doing a long run also. With a good warm up and warm down that 6x1m session must come to 12m or so? Space them Mon Thurs Sat OR Tues Fri Sun if possible.

jfh

Larry Brent wrote: »

Can't answer that, will vary based on experience, ability and what you're doing the rest of the week.




That's more than enough if you are doing a long run also. With a good warm up and warm down that 6x1m session must come to 12m or so? Space them Mon Thurs Sat OR Tues Fri Sun if possible.

yeah it's coming in at about 11 miles.

Krusty_Clown

jfh wrote: »

krusty i know that your a fan of P&D, worked alright for you, i see you can fit in a tempo sessions during lunch, i've tried that a few times and i'm panting & sweating back at my desk for the afternoon, not sure if i'm up to that.

i'd find it difficult to go out on a wed and run 15 miles, thought the daniels plan had less milage higher tempo sessions so was going down that route.

Hi jfh, I'm following the 75-85 mpw plan, which has far greater mileage than the 55 mpw plan. Certainly no mid-week 15 mile runs, and tempo runs wouldn't have as much mileage, so more manageable in the evenings.

TFBubendorfer

Why all the procrastination?

jfh wrote: »

So after all that, my question is would 2 med runs say 13 miles on saturday and 12 sunday be better than one 18-19 mile.

If you're training for a marathon, the only answer is no. You need your long runs if you're planning to run 26 miles.

misty floyd

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

If you're training for a marathon, the only answer is no. You need your long runs if you're planning to run 26 miles.

Exactly, it's a no brainer

jfh

misty floyd wrote: »

Exactly, it's a no brainer

i know it probably wiser to stick with the tried and tested but this is an interesting plan http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=4447

TFBubendorfer

jfh wrote: »

i know it probably wiser to stick with the tried and tested but this is an interesting plan http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=4447

Even that has a few 16 milers.

ecoli

I remember having a discussion via email with Clearier about this a few months back when talking about training theory.

Similar to you we discussed the validity of breaking a long run into two mid length runs over the weekend. The idea behind it was that the body was in a semi fatigued state come the Sunday to allow the development of endurance without the compromising of training in the week after recovering from a 2.30-3hr run. We thought this would be a good idea for runners who are relatively new to the sport. Here we found that beginners would benefit more from general conditioning than specific marathon conditioning. Simply put they didnt have the base to conduct marathon specific training efficiently on an ongoing basis without the training being compromised by amount of time it took to recover.
Ultimately though there would be a need later in the programme to conduct marathon specific long runs but by this stage they would have the base to allow the body to cope better (this was in relation to a hypothetical 24 week plan so there was room for a general conditioning stage before specific marathon work)

In a more experienced runner with a certain base built up however you need to start to get more specific in you running. One if the recovery is compromising your training however it might be an idea to run it over a 2 week cycle of 1 week of 2 x mid length runs followed by a Long run the following week. When you get to a point beyond running to complete a marathon and get down to the quicker times though you cannot escape the Long Runs of 2.30-3hrs.

jfh

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

jfh wrote: »

i know it probably wiser to stick with the tried and tested but this is an interesting plan http://runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=4447

Even that has a few 16 milers.

for me there a big difference between a 16 miler and a 20+

jfh

thats a very thourough answer ecoli, & i still have questions. sorry new to this marathon game. both my med runs, would be run fairly hard. my 15 miles was just under mp avg. the following day id go 10 / 11 @ mp.
so one really long run of over 2:30 hours would be more beneficial but id be doing that v slow?

ecoli

jfh wrote: »

thats a very thourough answer ecoli, & i still have questions. sorry new to this marathon game. both my med runs, would be run fairly hard. my 15 miles was just under mp avg. the following day id go 10 / 11 @ mp.
so one really long run of over 2:30 hours would be more beneficial but id be doing that v slow?

If you are doing two runs @ MP or quicker you are flogging it in my opinion. If you were breaking up a run like that have one run easy/steady and one run @ MP (preferrably the latter as your body is already in a fatigued state). In terms of the longer run however yes most of the time it would be better to do it slower but you could add MP miles at some point on alternate weeks as a session.

Similarly to this topic I think the same principles should apply to if you are running doubles. If you are training for HM or longer I think you are better to have doubles run with short run in morning and longer in evening as opposed to 2 equal length runs simply to get more specificity out of your training. You will find most people who run 10k or less tend to do two short equal runs simply because for them the stimulus they are looking for is general conditioning as opposed to the endurance aspect gotten from longer runs for Half marathon runners and longer

jfh

ecoli, thats v interesting about the doubles, havn't got into doubles yet because milage is still low. but something to keep in mind.
it seems from your reply and the others that time on the feet is more important than anything else.

cwgatling

jfh wrote: »

thats a very thourough answer ecoli, & i still have questions. sorry new to this marathon game. both my med runs, would be run fairly hard. my 15 miles was just under mp avg. the following day id go 10 / 11 @ mp.
so one really long run of over 2:30 hours would be more beneficial but id be doing that v slow?

I don't know how long you'll last at that, jfh. Sounds like a really tough way of training. What about 3 easy, 15 MP, 3 easy? Even that is a killer session, do it 3 times before the race and you'll be in great shape. 10 easy, 10 MP is another one. Or 3E, 13MP, 3E as a starter.

15 MP is solid, but there's 11.2 more to go after that.

jfh

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Why all the procrastination?

not sure, & your right, without sounding too dramatic, its the fear of the unknown, what if i cant make it home after pulling up.stupid stuff really. id be doing long runs on my own. know that sounds ridicolous.
time to man up and get out there

jfh

tbh i was just hanging off another fella. session nearly killed me. tho i did 14 again last sunday and not as bad this time so i could stick doing that or go alone and build up the milage slowly & that seems to be the suggested approach here.

ecoli

jfh wrote: »

ecoli, thats v interesting about the doubles, havn't got into doubles yet because milage is still low. but something to keep in mind.
it seems from your reply and the others that time on the feet is more important than anything else.

You need a balance of both time on your feet and allowing the body to become accustomed to the pace.

Both types of sessions have there merit and compliment each other so there is no right or wrong answer its a case of each session giving your body different stimuli which are both important in your training

TFBubendorfer

jfh wrote: »

not sure, & your right, without sounding too dramatic, its the fear of the unknown, what if i cant make it home after pulling up.stupid stuff really. id be doing long runs on my own. know that sounds ridicolous.
time to man up and get out there

Yes, that's the impression I had all along, and believe me, that "fear of the unknown" isn't something only you feel. But I also agree with the rest of your statement - man up and do it.

Krusty_Clown

jfh wrote: »

TFBubendorfer wrote: »

Why all the procrastination?

not sure, & your right, without sounding too dramatic, its the fear of the unknown, what if i cant make it home after pulling up.stupid stuff really. id be doing long runs on my own. know that sounds ridicolous.
time to man up and get out there

You may be surrounded by other people, but you'll run the marathon on your own. Best get used to it. Also bring a phone and some money, or do smaller loops closer to home, if you have a fear of not finishing.

meijin

Similar idea worked fine for me - the longest run was 8+16 miles split between Friday evening/Saturday morning. I started with no running base at all, and after 5 months training finished DCM in 4h. I've actually followed this program http://runkeeper.com/fitness-class/running-marathon/9 after a month of this http://runkeeper.com/fitness-class/running-half-marathon/20

See also http://blog.runkeeper.com/running-training/the-marathon-long-run-is-overrated for some rationale behind splitting the run.

jfh

i actually went with the traditional approach and went for my longest run,18 1/2 miles in 2 hours and 12 min, nice and handy overall, but wrecked after it.
going to go one better next week and so on till i get to 22.
the plan is to keep all long runs over 16 anyway.
know there's different opinions on how far one should go, that's another days work!