Can the Yanks Save Third Level Funding?

southsiderosie

There has been a great amount of hoo-haa in Ireland over third level funding, and it is increasingly a question for universities around the world: how can university tuition remain within reach for families while at the same time contributing to research and innovation that may have broader social and economic benefits?

A growing solution among publicly-funded universities in the U.S. is to recruit out-of-state students who can pay upwards of double or triple the tuition rates of locals. At strong state universities like Virginia, close to a third of students are out-of-state. On the one hand, this has helped to make up budget shortfalls. On the other hand, many locals have argued that since local taxes go to support the universities, local students should get preferential access.

Certainly Ireland enjoys great cachet among Americans, and even tuition rates of 10,000 euros/year (somewhere between the EU and non-EU rate) would be considered a bargain by many families. But this may, in turn, squeeze out some local students.

Would you be amenable to, say, 25% of seats being reserved for international students if it meant that it would subsidize the other 75% of the student population? Since, in my view, the no-fees model is both unsustainable and undesirable, I think this could be a good compromise. But what do other people think?

thebman

Aren't our universities already at this? NUI Maynooth certainly is.

southsiderosie

thebman wrote: »

Aren't our universities already at this? NUI Maynooth certainly is.

I think they would like more foreigners to come, but as far as I know, there aren't deliberate targets or set-asides for non-EU students? In addition, I think the non-EU student price point (currently 20K) is a bit steep, even for Americans used to eye-wateringly expensive college tuition, especially given that Irish universities aren't as known of a commodity as, say, Oxford or Cambridge. So a 10-12K euro point is significantly more than a local student would pay, but still far less than what most Americans would pay to attend a private university in the US.

I guess what I am more interested in is this as a specific policy built into the budgeting and admissions process - much like what the University of Washington is doing with Chinese students.

Permabear

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thebman

Permabear wrote: »

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It is for the cultural experience so they really only have to be on par for parents to think they would prefer their kids saw outside America like they never had the chance to.

Permabear

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southsiderosie

Permabear wrote: »

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Well, I think it depends on the region.

I grew up in the Midwest, where even high school valedictorians would go to the state university. But I've spend most of the last 10 years living in New England, where people spend over $20,000/year on private college tuition rather than sending their kid to their Big State U. There is a lot of snobbery about it here. So from that perspective, if you for example live in Maine, sending your kid to Trinity seems like a bargain compared to Colby College. And Trinity has a hell of a lot more cachet than University of Utah (or University of Maine!), especially if your kid is going to major in liberal arts - Ireland is, after all, still renowned for its writers, regardless of its current economic situation.

Permabear

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SeanW

Im studying in UCC at the moment and half my classmates are Chinese, I don't imagine they're getting free-fees, or EU rates ...

FreudianSlippers

Where do you think RCSI gets all their money? It's not the USA, that's for sure.

Go to any university in Ireland and you can see that they are filled with out of EU students from China and the Middle East.

Take Trinity this year, non-EU fees are between €16,000 and €20,000 approx. (between $21,000 and $27,000 approx.) and then you have to factor in really expensive accommodation and living expenses. Not really cheaper than your state college.

Then also factor in the fact that if you ever wanted to go back to the US, you'd have to have your credentials evaluated and hope that the US accepts your training.

southsiderosie

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Where do you think RCSI gets all their money? It's not the USA, that's for sure.

Go to any university in Ireland and you can see that they are filled with out of EU students from China and the Middle East.

Take Trinity this year, non-EU fees are between €16,000 and €20,000 approx. (between $21,000 and $27,000 approx.) and then you have to factor in really expensive accommodation and living expenses. Not really cheaper than your state college.

No, but that is still cheaper than a private liberal arts college in the US - that is my point. Not every parent is going to send their kid to a state school, and for that market, a school like Trinity looks like a good deal. And if they knocked the tuition down even to, say, 10,000-12,000, that would be a smoking bargain, and competitive with even some state universities.

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Then also factor in the fact that if you ever wanted to go back to the US, you'd have to have your credentials evaluated and hope that the US accepts your training.

Most undergraduates in the US aren't 'credentialed' in anything really. A liberal arts degree is a liberal arts degree.

In every debate on university funding on boards, Arts degrees are knocked as not 'pulling their weight' in the same way that STEM degrees do. Luring Americans into arts programs is a way to help subsidize those fields for local students, capitalize on Ireland's cachet as a 'literary' society, and from the view of an American who wants the liberal arts undergraduate experience, a tremendous bargain. So it seems like a win-win situation to me.

[Note - I'm not trying to move the goalposts here, but your post made me re-evaluate my OP. Maybe the real question is, can importing American students help Irish universities maintain their offerings in the Arts? The more I think about it, the more I think a focus specifically on importing Arts students could be mutually beneficial.]

Anita Blow

From my experience, my own college is doing this and I'd imagine most, if not all others, are doing it aswell. There'd be a lot of students in my lectures from North America/Asia. It's not necessarily a bad thing though because, as you said, it subsidises national students. Ireland isn't the only country to do this so I guess it's just something to accept. International students will nearly always pay more than national students.

Permabear wrote: »

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Don't necessarily agree with this.
One of the criteria for THE Rankings is the International outlook which looks at "both diversity on campus and how much each university's academics collaborate with international colleagues on research projects - all signs of how global an institution is in its outlook. The ability of a university to compete in a competitive global market for undergraduates and postgraduates is key to its success on the world stage; this factor is measured here by the ratio of international to domestic students".
When you look at this indicator, you see we have TCD at 16th and UCD at 33rd.

djpbarry

southsiderosie wrote: »

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I would suggest that most (if not all) third-level institutions in Ireland have unofficial targets. In the institution where I did my post-grad, staff members were actively encouraged to target non-EU candidates to fill post-grad positions.

Permabear wrote: »

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It really depends on what the child wants to study (or what the parents want the child to study). Most institutions in Ireland are never going to be able to compete with the likes of Oxford and Cambridge in the reputation stakes, but they can certainly offer comparable (or even better) degrees in certain fields.

Manach

It is a good idea by the OP, in that apart from the economic benefits it would allow students to provide a differing and expanded view point on their academic subjects.

nesf

Permabear wrote: »

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You miss the point. If I'm sending my kid to do a degree somewhere, and especially a postgrad, I care about the department's reputation, not the college's overall reputation. E.g. I've seen people with post graduate degrees from UCC's Maths department land Post Docs in Oxford, not a trivial thing to do. Ditto Economics in Trinity/UCD. And even this is more specialised than that, because it's the research area within the department and the reputation of the academics in that are that matters rather than the department's reputation much of the time.

Irish Universities can't compete as total entities with the major world universities but that doesn't preclude them being in the top 50 for certain departments and research areas.

Chuck Stone

Universities should really be getting cheaper instead of more expensive. How long before brick and mortar colleges are stripped down to those parts that actually need to be there in a physical aspect?

Liberal arts, I'd imagine, could be delivered from a server for a fraction of the price of a B&M college campus and post lecture questions and answers could be discussed in forum format.

In my view technology has overtaken the traditional delivery methods of eduction to a point where in the future the physical experience of college will compliment the virtual and not the reverse - especially so for the liberal arts.

southsiderosie

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Universities should really be getting cheaper instead of more expensive. How long before brick and mortar colleges are stripped down to those parts that actually need to be there in a physical aspect?

Liberal arts, I'd imagine, could be delivered from a server for a fraction of the price of a B&M college campus and post lecture questions and answers could be discussed in forum format.

In my view technology has overtaken the traditional delivery methods of eduction to a point where in the future the physical experience of college will be compliment the virtual and not the reverse - especially so for the liberal arts.

Perhaps, but do you think the kind of student who would want to go to college specifically for liberal arts would be amenable to that sort of thing? In the U.S., a big part of the reason why people who choose liberal arts colleges is because they offer small classes and the opportunity for more face time with senior faculty. Personally I can't say that I am a fan of virtual classrooms, but maybe that's just me.

karma_

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Universities should really be getting cheaper instead of more expensive. How long before brick and mortar colleges are stripped down to those parts that actually need to be there in a physical aspect?

Liberal arts, I'd imagine, could be delivered from a server for a fraction of the price of a B&M college campus and post lecture questions and answers could be discussed in forum format.

In my view technology has overtaken the traditional delivery methods of eduction to a point where in the future the physical experience of college will be compliment the virtual and not the reverse - especially so for the liberal arts.

I disagree, especially where the liberal arts are concerned, there needs to be a place where students can come face to face and share ideas with one another and faculty.

Chuck Stone

southsiderosie wrote: »

Perhaps, but do you think the kind of student who would want to go to college specifically for liberal arts would be amenable to that sort of thing?

Tbh if it's a purely private operation I really couldn't care less - it's up to the user whether they want to spend tens of thousands of dollars on a liberal arts B&M education.

It's when the state is subsidising 3rd level that value for money should be sought for those who fill the public purse. Publicly funded universities have no incentive to innovate and streamline their method of delivery, on the contrary, the complaint for poor results is inevitably 'lack of funding'.

It's only a matter of time before 'free' fees are going to be a thing of the past (as you have mentioned) and the user will have to pay so I think a move to the virtual classroom will be a natural means of getting value for money and driving down the costs of further education.

In the U.S., a big part of the reason why people who choose liberal arts colleges is because they offer small classes and the opportunity for more face time with senior faculty. Personally I can't say that I am a fan of virtual classrooms, but maybe that's just me.

This is quite understandable and I am sympathetic to this desire for academic intimacy seeing as I prefer the real-world group learning environment myself.

Nevertheless, if I had to pay for a B&M education versus a virtual one for, say, half the cost, the latter would be my only option due to economic reality.

thebman

Permabear wrote: »

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Don't think so, Maynooth is full of people from other countries every year at the moment. Part of the village university marketing I guess.

nice_guy80

more students from countries like Malaysia, India, China and elsewhere could help to fund our Third Level sector

for most of those US students, Ireland would still be much cheaper than attending one of the big colleges in the US.

however, when I see the salaries paid to lecturers, and especially professors and colleges presidents and the like and the amount of admin staff in colleges then I would suspect that that is where extra income is likely to go.

djpbarry

nice_guy80 wrote: »

however, when I see the salaries paid to lecturers, and especially professors and colleges presidents and the like and the amount of admin staff in colleges then I would suspect that that is where extra income is likely to go.

You're lumping together a whole load of different roles there. Lecturers in Ireland are no better paid than they are here in the UK, in my experience - the salary paid is heavily dependent on experience. I know young lecturers in Ireland who earn considerably less than the national average income. Contrary to popular belief, in general, academia does not pay particularly well relative to other industries.

There is certainly some fat to be trimmed from administrative departments in academia (I would say that is as true here in the UK as it is in Ireland), but as for those in research and teaching positions at the upper end of the pay scale, assuming they are delivering results, why shouldn't they be well paid?

southsiderosie

nice_guy80 wrote: »

more students from countries like Malaysia, India, China and elsewhere could help to fund our Third Level sector

for most of those US students, Ireland would still be much cheaper than attending one of the big colleges in the US.

however, when I see the salaries paid to lecturers, and especially professors and colleges presidents and the like and the amount of admin staff in colleges then I would suspect that that is where extra income is likely to go.

Just to add to this, my mother is in India right now, and saw an advertisement for Irish universities in the flight magazine of a local airline.

dashboard_hula

southsiderosie wrote: »

Just to add to this, my mother is in India right now, and saw an advertisement for Irish universities in the flight magazine of a local airline.

I attend an IT not a university but there is already a very active overseas marketing effort within the college. We have a lot of Middle Eastern and Asian students, along with partnerships with a good number of schools beyond the usual ties with Europe and America - Hong Kong, India and I think Saudi Arabia.

I think there's a lot of advantages to having a good number of foreign students in Irish schools on both sides. Foreign students get to improve their language skills beyond "taught" English, and Ireland may seem a little less intimidating to parents than say the UK or USA. On the Irish side, especially for smaller colleges, the more exposure to a wide range of nationalities the better. The more funding a college can receive from foreign tuition money, the more a college can expand. I really can't see any downsides that couldn't be worked out.