Playing hole 'not in play'

joanmul

What is the exact rule for playing a hole not in the stipulated round i.e. 10 holes instead of 9? Three competitors in front of me played the 17th when it was not in play i.e. holes 1,2,3,4,10,11,12,16,18 were in play. Is the penalty not disqualification? 2 of those competitors went on to win prizes.

Uncle Ben

In our place holes are closed this time of year for a reason, and people playing same not only get disqualified but also get bollicking from greens committee if caught.

Dr.Silly

joanmul wrote: »

What is the exact rule for playing a hole not in the stipulated round i.e. 10 holes instead of 9? Three competitors in front of me played the 17th when it was not in play i.e. holes 1,2,3,4,10,11,12,16,18 were in play. Is the penalty not disqualification? 2 of those competitors went on to win prizes.

it's disqualification

joanmul

Dr.Silly wrote: »

it's disqualification

Yeah, I know it's disqualification but under what rule. I want to raise the issue but I want to be able to say the exact rule. I thought it might be 33.7 but I want that confirmed.

Uncle Ben

Good question and I hope I've found the right answer.

Rule 20.7 Playing from the wrong place; General
A player has played from a wrong place if he makes a stroke at his ball in play:
(i) on a part of the course where the Rules do not permit a stroke to be made or a ball to be dropped or placed; or
(ii) when the Rules require a dropped ball to be re-dropped or a moved ball to be replaced.
Note: For a ball played from outside the teeing ground or from a wrong teeing ground – see Rule 11-4.


The term rules include......
Any conditions of competition established by the committee under Rule 33-1, Appendix 1

http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=20&subRuleNum=7

Rule 33-1 Conditions/Waiving Rules:
The Committee must establish the conditions under which a competition is to be played.
The Committee has no power to waive a Rule of Golf.
Certain specific Rules governing stroke play are so substantially different from those governing match play that combining the two forms of play is not practicable and is not permitted. The result of a match played in these circumstances is null and void and, in the stroke play competition, the competitors are disqualified.
In stroke play, the Committee may limit a referee’s duties.

Keano

Could be 33-7 but also falls under the practising during the round rule.

joanmul

Thanks Uncle Ben.

Hacker111

In my club today the competition was 5-18..... however, my group played 1-4 first as a warm up..... I was of the opinion that this was ok... I assume because it is pre round and different holes

PhilipMarlowe

Stupid R&A link acting weird.
http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/
Look at decision 3/2 under top level of rule 3 and see the result is DQ under 33-7

Direct link is http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Rules-of-Golf.aspx#/rules/?ruleNum=3&decisionId=D27A4F60-A036-4EEA-B812-61909E5D4FCC but doesn't seem to work right now for me so quoting below:

3/2 Competitors Play Two Holes Not Included in Stipulated Round
Q.
In stroke play, the stipulated round was 16 holes, i.e. the 13th and 14th holes were omitted. After play of the 12th hole, one group elected to play the 13th and 14th holes without counting their scores for those holes. They then completed the round. What is the ruling?

A.
The stipulated round consists of playing the holes of the course in the sequence prescribed by the Committee – see Definition of “Stipulated Round”. These competitors were in breach of the conditions of the competition and the Committee should in this case impose a penalty of disqualification under Rule 33-7.

Also, just to note that stableford would be considered as strokeplay before anyone asks

joanmul

Hacker111 wrote: »

In my club today the competition was 5-18..... however, my group played 1-4 first as a warm up..... I was of the opinion that this was ok... I assume because it is pre round and different holes

Did you sign the book and pay up and then go out to play in the competition but started with 1 - 4? It couldn't be pre-round if you were already out in competition. That's just my opinion - I'm not sure, but I certainly wouldn't do that myself.

Philip Marlowe - I think 33.7 looks more like the rule I'm looking for.

k.p.h

The only way disqualification could be enforced is under 33-7 (as far as I can see). That pretty much means there is no rule and it's a decision to made by the committee.

33-7. Disqualification Penalty; Committee Discretion
A penalty of disqualification may in exceptional individual cases be waived, modified or imposed if the Committee considers such action warranted.

It's Feburary, they played an extra hole. No committee in the world is going to disqualify anyone over something like this, it's obviously not the decisive factor to them placing in the competition.

golf_caddy

The order of the holes played is layed out by the committee and is defined as a STIPULATED ROUND. See defintion for this in rules book. If the comp was some form of strokeplay then they should be Dq'd under rule 3.1 ( Strokeplay)
for the point on practice this is allowed under rule 7.1.b as long as its not on the competition course.

Whyner

joanmul wrote: »

What is the exact rule for playing a hole not in the stipulated round i.e. 10 holes instead of 9? Three competitors in front of me played the 17th when it was not in play i.e. holes 1,2,3,4,10,11,12,16,18 were in play. Is the penalty not disqualification? 2 of those competitors went on to win prizes.

Why are you :mad:? More than likely played it by mistake, no?

Give them a break, or is there an underlying reason you want to pull them up?

Redzah

Whyner wrote: »

Why are you :mad:? More than likely played it by mistake, no?

Give them a break, or is there an underlying reason you want to pull them up?

Although i don't think it was played by mistake, i do agree with the above post i.e. Who gives a S**t? They pay an annual sub and all they want to do is play as many holes as possible in a winter club competition. When i play the winter 12 hole competition in my club i often play the 18 holes (as all 18 are open but its a 12 hole comp due to light). If somebody tried to pull me up on it, i'd give them a piece of my mind. I'd imagine the OP feels aggrevied as their score was not good enough to get a prize. My recommendation would be to use the time that u have spent complaining about it on the practice range instead

slave1

I have to say Moate does this quite a bit but in an unmanaged fashion.

Winter competitions are 13 holes, holes 1-13 and then 16/17/18 are invariably closed but lads play them.
I can't see them being effected because the competion is effectively over once the last ball drops into the 13th hole.

However, from a course management perspective it's not managed well.
Sometimes there's a scribble on a blackboard beside the shop, you would very easily miss it and accidently play say 17/18 if they are closed, I did it once.
Other times there is nothing on the board when you tee off and then when you get back in the board has been updated and you realise you should not have played the holes recently closed.

IMHO if a hole is closed then the course should remove the tee markers and take the flag out, end of story, avoid misunderstandings, a polite sign like "This hole is currently closed via committee decision" would also be great but should not be required if no tee marker/flag.
Anyone who plays a hole with no tee markers or flag in play can' then fairly feel any wrath forthcoming.

dnjoyce

slave1 wrote: »

I have to say Moate does this quite a bit but in an unmanaged fashion.

Winter competitions are 13 holes, holes 1-13 and then 16/17/18 are invariably closed but lads play them.
I can't see them being effected because the competion is effectively over once the last ball drops into the 13th hole.

However, from a course management perspective it's not managed well.
Sometimes there's a scribble on a blackboard beside the shop, you would very easily miss it and accidently play say 17/18 if they are closed, I did it once.
Other times there is nothing on the board when you tee off and then when you get back in the board has been updated and you realise you should not have played the holes recently closed.

IMHO if a hole is closed then the course should remove the tee markers and take the flag out, end of story, avoid misunderstandings, a polite sign like "This hole is currently closed via committee decision" would also be great but should not be required if no tee marker/flag.
Anyone who plays a hole with no tee markers or flag in play can' then fairly feel any wrath forthcoming.

+1

No tee markers/flag would quickly sort any confusion but if a hole is otherwise open, then for winter competitions I think it's a bit silly to disqualify people for trying to get the most out of their weekly game

stringy

"stipulated round consists of playing the holes of the course in the sequence prescribed by the Committee”.

2 examples given. My interpretation of the rule:

1. Played holes 1,2,3,4,10,11,12,16,18 and also played 17, which was not in play.

Outcome, 17 was not in the sequence of play prescribed by the committee, disqualified.

2. Playing holes 1-4 as practice, then the competition.

holes 1-4 are not in sequence of play and not included in the competition, therefore they are of no relevance. Once holes 5-18 were played straight through, there can be no disqualification. Also, playing holes 1-4 does not count as practicing as those holes are not play and as as such not part of the "course".

GreeBo

You shouldnt play random holes in the middle of a round, at the end or start is fine, but not in the middle...thats practicing...even in winter!

However if the holes are out of play for course management reasons then you shouldnt play them at all.

Agree on taking out the flags, tee markers as sometimes you are just on auto-pilot out there...

k.p.h

I think you are right stringy, but the enforcement of the disqualification is actually a committee decision and not actually a black and white rule.

So it's someones decision to disqualify them or not. I just couldn't see anyone making that decision at this time of year.

Redzah

k.p.h wrote: »

I think you are right stringy, but the enforcement of the disqualification is actually a committee decision and not actually a black and white rule.

So it's someones decision to disqualify them or not. I just couldn't see anyone making that decision at this time of year.

Agreed with K.P.H. I would also agree that the committee would be right in not making this decision as it seems a bit silly to me.

There's no problem playing a few extra holes in a winter comp in my opinion as long as the following happens;

1. The holes are open

2. By playing extra holes during the round, you do not skip in front of competitors playing the competition course when u rejoin. For example in my clubs 12 hole comp i only play the 18 when i am one of the last out so that the last competitors have gone through when i rejoin the competition course.

I am aware that by the letter of the law that doing this is probably against the rules but so is placing the ball 7 inches away instead of 6 inches away in winter rules and i'd imagine 75% of the field would be DQ'd if this was monitored through some video analysis!! Fact is its a petty arguement under the above circumstances that i have highlighted.

Jul3s

Redzah wrote: »

Agreed with K.P.H. I would also agree that the committee would be right in not making this decision as it seems a bit silly to me.

There's no problem playing a few extra holes in a winter comp in my opinion as long as the following happens;

1. The holes are open

2. By playing extra holes during the round, you do not skip in front of competitors playing the competition course when u rejoin. For example in my clubs 12 hole comp i only play the 18 when i am one of the last out so that the last competitors have gone through when i rejoin the competition course.

I am aware that by the letter of the law that doing this is probably against the rules but so is placing the ball 7 inches away instead of 6 inches away in winter rules and i'd imagine 75% of the field would be DQ'd if this was monitored through some video analysis!! Fact is its a petty arguement under the above circumstances that i have highlighted.

+1
In future I too will pick and chose which rules I agree with and decide to follow, If it's good enough for a 2 handicapper then it's good enough for me.

Redzah

Jul3s wrote: »

+1
In future I too will pick and chose which rules I agree with and decide to follow, If it's good enough for a 2 handicapper then it's good enough for me.

If my sarcasm detector is working correctly then its beeping loudly at the moment.

Listen if you put a gun to my head and asked me if i thought it was against the rules then i'd say yes.

But if I played 18 holes in a 12 hole competition and won the competiton, would i feel guilty the answer is no. If u asked me if i gained a competitive advantage by playing the 18 holes then my answer would be 'no'.

If you want to call this pick and choosing the rules then fine but all i know is that I walk off the course with a clear conscience which i would not do if i believe i did something inherently wrong which gave me a competitive advantage.

At the end of the day its a 12 hole winter comp, not the masters, some people are absolute sticklers for the rules, next we'll have people standing by bunkers to check if a lads wipe sand from the fringe because they have a better score than them.

Dr_Colossus

Playing additional holes within the competition does offer a competitive advantage I feel. If you're struggling with the driver or pushing/pulling shots during the competition holes a couple of practice holes mid way to work on those issues can make a big difference for a strong finish. Once you start the competition you should finish it in the correct intended sequence and any deviation from this should only rightly result in disqualification.

Granted it's only a winter 12 hole competition or whatever but it's still a competition with a prize at stake and everyone should be playing on an equal playing field. If you want to play additional holes and play a more standard 18 over your weekend then there's nothing to stop you playing after your competition round and you've submitted your score.

Personally I'm not a fan of competitions run over less than 18 holes so rarely play the winter competitions in my home club which are 14 holes. In saying that I did play yesterday and after my round I worked on putting and then played a few extra holes working to work on my tee shots which had cost me dearly during the competition round.

charlieIRL

slave1 wrote: »

I have to say Moate does this quite a bit but in an unmanaged fashion.

Winter competitions are 13 holes, holes 1-13 and then 16/17/18 are invariably closed but lads play them.
I can't see them being effected because the competion is effectively over once the last ball drops into the 13th hole.

However, from a course management perspective it's not managed well.
Sometimes there's a scribble on a blackboard beside the shop, you would very easily miss it and accidently play say 17/18 if they are closed, I did it once.
Other times there is nothing on the board when you tee off and then when you get back in the board has been updated and you realise you should not have played the holes recently closed.

IMHO if a hole is closed then the course should remove the tee markers and take the flag out, end of story, avoid misunderstandings, a polite sign like "This hole is currently closed via committee decision" would also be great but should not be required if no tee marker/flag.
Anyone who plays a hole with no tee markers or flag in play can' then fairly feel any wrath forthcoming.

Holes 1,2 & 18 are out of action in Athlone at the moment - the tee markers and flags are taken out of the holes so you know straight away they are not in play. Its also marked on the card and you are told in the pro shop before you go out as well.

In moate - I played in the winter league there last year and nearly always played 14 - 18 after finishing the 13 holes if the weather permitted. Not very often we got out at all last year!!
I can see the issue raised by the OP though and rules are rules and must be respected. If you are going to bend the rules to play extra holes in a 13 hole competition are you going to bend them while playing a bigger 18 hole competition later in the year??!!

Redzah

charlieIRL wrote: »

Holes 1,2 & 18 are out of action in Athlone at the moment - the tee markers and flags are taken out of the holes so you know straight away they are not in play. Its also marked on the card and you are told in the pro shop before you go out as well.

In moate - I played in the winter league there last year and nearly always played 14 - 18 after finishing the 13 holes if the weather permitted. Not very often we got out at all last year!!
I can see the issue raised by the OP though and rules are rules and must be respected. If you are going to bend the rules to play extra holes in a 13 hole competition are you going to bend them while playing a bigger 18 hole competition later in the year??!!

No is the answer to that for numerous reasons, namely my conscience, handicapping purposes, ethics etc.

I believe there are certain times where common sense should prevail and in a winter competition where other holes outside of competition are open this should be one of those times. I didn't expect many to agree with me here as there seems to be many rule mongers on this forum but i just think in this instance, there should not be an issue.

I believe the gripe may be more to do with the fact that in this circumstance the OP did not get a prize but in reality he should a. play better or b. practice harder and not look to get people disqualified on a technicality that is not a fundamental breach of the rules.

Dr_Colossus

Redzah wrote: »

I believe the gripe may be more to do with the fact that in this circumstance the OP did not get a prize but in reality he should a. play better or b. practice harder and not look to get people disqualified on a technicality that is not a fundamental breach of the rules.

If the OP played more holes between and among the official competition holes he would be (b) practicing harder which in turn would hopefully result in (a) playing better.
The fact that the competition is a winter 13 hole competition is irrelevant I think. Granted there could be placing within 6 inches depending on the course in question and there's unlikely to be official handicap adjustments based on the scores but it's still a competition and as such should be treated as such. Otherwise the same logic could be applied to an 18 hole competition where if the course was quite there would be nothing to stop you replaying two or more holes mid competition to iron out a few issues.

k.p.h

Dr_Colossus wrote: »

Otherwise the same logic could be applied to an 18 hole competition where if the course was quite there would be nothing to stop you replaying two or more holes mid competition to iron out a few issues.

I think the logic here was we are playing 1,2,3,4,10,11,12,16,18. Hole 17 is between 16 and 18 so we might as well play it...!

I think any committee making a ruling on this would see this logic too. But it's not guaranteed.

In regard to the type of logic you are on about (aka playing extra holes in a round) would be identified by a committee too and disqualification would swiftly follow.

I think this scenario has not been left to the rule 33-7 by chance. The R&A obviously realize this is hard rule to nail down so leave it open for the competition organizers to decide what the penalty is,if any for this type of occurrence.

I think we are just speculating from here on about it TBH, it's a decision to be made. I wouldn't disqualify, but some of ye would and I can see the points made and they make sense. Who really knows.

Redzah

k.p.h wrote: »

I think the logic here was we are playing 1,2,3,4,10,11,12,16,18. Hole 17 is between 16 and 18 so we might as well play it...!

I think any committee making a ruling on this would see this logic too. But it's not guaranteed.

In regard to the type of logic you are on about (aka playing extra holes in a round) would be identified by a committee too and disqualification would swiftly follow.

I think this scenario has not been left to the rule 33-7 by chance. The R&A obviously realize this is hard rule to nail down so leave it open for the competition organizers to decide what the penalty is,if any for this type of occurrence.

I think we are just speculating from here on about it TBH, it's a decision to be made. I wouldn't disqualify, but some of ye would and I can see the points made and they make sense. Who really knows.

I agree with K.P.H., in my view its common sense versus the rulebook. I'd like to think that common sense would win this in most cases but clearly, the rulebook wins on this thread. Ye guys are sticklers for the rules, sure don't ye know that anything inside 5 feet is a gimme so u can just pick up and walk on