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United Ireland - NATO?
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05-02-2012 5:57pm#1
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Funny that you have this opinion... I'm old enough to remember that a majority voted to remove our constitutional territorial claim to the 6 counties only a few years ago...
Since when was that considered a referendum on a United Ireland? The Republic removing its claim over the 6 counties was a precondition of the Good Friday Agreement, and a red line issue for both Unionists and the British government. Had we voted it down, it would've scuppered any chance of a peace process. But to take the 94% YES result from that referendum and suggest that 94% are against a United Ireland is nonsense.Well there's no real way of knowing without a referendum but I think you might be surprised to learn a lot of people in the south couldn't care less about the north. It's sad but true. In fact a lot of them would be strongly against it, because if you take the ideology of a 'united Ireland' out of the equation and look at the hard figures the north is an economic black hole even worse than our own. And referendum or not there would be huge resistance from the loyalist paramilitaries, and with the current governments attitude to the defence forces we would have a very difficult time dealing with that with less than 10000 troops, not to mention the Garda overtime bill....
Whatever about the cost of maintaining the public sector in the North (that deserves its own topic), I think the loyalist resistance to a United Ireland is overstated. There was a poll taken sometime last year which showed the vast majority of Unionists would accept a United Ireland if a majority voted for it. So straight away, loyalist paramilitaries wouldn't have the wide support of the Unionist community that the IRA got from the Nationalist community at the height of the troubles. And even at the height of the troubles, loyalist paramilitaries were in no position to stage any kind of offensive against the Republic, even considering the collusion that went on between them and the Brits. In any case, a United Ireland will only come about by democratic means, and given that, it shouldn't matter what loyalists threaten to do, if a majority want a United Ireland then it should happen. Just as it shouldn't matter now what the Real IRA threaten to do when a majority want to stay in the UK.0 -
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but despite the cliche: Catholic = Nationalist/Republican and Protestant = Unionist/Loyalist was never true even in the country as a whole before partition particularly for Catholics.
I never said that, but lets be pragmatic, the vast majority of Catholics are Nationalists and the vast majority of Protestants are Unionists. The very fact that the leader of the DUP has acknowledged that Catholics will decide the future of the North just proves this. He knows he'll have to do what the UUP couldn't, and accomodate Catholics views and bring them around to supporting the status quo. But as long as the Orange Order are dictating Unionist party policies, that'll never happen.In fact if anything there is a new shared Northern Irish identity which has elements of both British and Irish.
I hate quoting the Life & Times Survey, but if you look at the most recent one its mainly Protestants that identify as 'Northern Irish', while the vast majority of Catholics identify as 'Irish'.One thing Sinn Fein complained about during the Presidential elections was that the attitude down South as in 'Eff off back to your own country'. Which proves this new NI identity isn't just a Northern phenomenon.
To be fair, when that blonde woman proclaimed herself a proud partitionist on the Frontline debate, she got a lot of abuse for her remarks on several forums and blogs and got no applause from the audience either. I don't think this shared 'Northern Irish' identity is as evident as you think though, but we can all spin these kind of things whatever we want. I'd personally see the Republic as having more and more influence on the North, particularly in areas like sport and the economy. And the fact that TDs are calling for people in the North to have a say in the constitutional forum this year also proves that not everyone sees the North as 'foreign'.Nobody here seems to have given any consideration to a united and totally INDEPENDENT Ireland - outside the UK, the way that the Scots seem to be heading.
Any thought on that one?
Well given that (most of) Ireland is already totally independent from the UK, I thought that's what we were talking about? 0 -
Well given that (most of) Ireland is already totally independent from the UK, I thought that's what we were talking about?
I'm sorry to play a blinder here, and I hope I'll be forgiven, but it is not plainly obvious to me whether the suggestion is that Northern Ireland joins the South and gives up all connection with the United Kingdom, and effectively becomes 'fully' Irish and not British, or that the present Republic of Ireland joins the North.
I have to say that if you are thinking of the first scenario then it is my opinion, talking about it to my neighbours [from Enniskillen and Armagh, both Catholic and the ultimate rarity - retired RUC] that it certainly WILL happen, but only when the Titanic steams majestically into New York harbour.
In fact, about as likely as the second scenario.
Do you truly believe that a referendum will sort it out to everybody's satisfaction?
tac0 -
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Not quite sure what your post means there in post#26? are you agreeing with Border-Rat when he says that Sinn Fein are the 2nd largest political party in Ireland? please clarify (No need for giant print)
No, I'm trying, with obvious lack of success, to convince Mr B-R that he is incorrect in his statement. Surely nobody on THIS forum needs to be reminded that Ireland and Northern Ireland are two distinctly different countries - at this time.
Second place in Northern Ireland but fourth place in the Republic of Ireland - and on THIS forum when Ireland is discussed it usually refers to the Republic and not the North.
I can see that Miss Bannasidhe seems to have had about as much success as I have, so I'll give up at this point and go feed the birdies.
tac0 -
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