Alstom DART Units to be sold off later this year

dublinman1990

It has been reported from Rail Users Ireland (RUI) that the Spanish manufactured Alstom DART units are to be sold off later this year.

http://www.freewebs.com/irishrail/dart87.JPG

The 2-car units of which there are 5 of them in total are currently being stored in Fairview's DART Depot.

I have been on these rare trains on a small number of occasions. I did notice that IE had put the DART 25 Logos on them when I was passing through Fairview one day late last year.

I know their was not great at all. I have noticed they were very slow carriages when I was on them.

It is a bit of a shock because this was reported about three weeks ago on RUI.

Any feedback on this will be most welcome!

foggy_lad

Have Irish Rail ever explained why they have effectively scrapped these perfectly good dart units which could be used at off peak times when two car darts would be perfect for the numbers travelling? Why were they mothballed years ago after having a lot of money spent on their refurbishment?

Jehuty42

foggy_lad wrote: »

effectively scrapped these perfectly good dart units

Er, they're not perfectly good, evidently. They don't work and for whatever reason have never worked properly from their introduction. It seems the work was put in to try and get them working, but with the introduction of the Japanese units a few years later they became less needed and important to have working.

foggy_lad wrote: »

which could be used at off peak times when two car darts would be perfect for the numbers travelling?

I wouldn't be so sure of that. But if 2-car sets are needed, the 8100 German units work fine. Besides, with EMUs there is very little added cost in running another set in a train.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why were they mothballed years ago after having a lot of money spent on their refurbishment?

I would hope the cost was borne by manufacturer's warranty. They were certainly never refurbished or anything, it was more making them work as initially designed, and that was never accomplished. Maybe you're confusing them with the 8100s? There's certainly no intention to sell those.

As for why they were mothballed- they're simply not needed, it seems! The DART fleet is apparently more than big enough to cover current demand - since the delivery of the final batch of Japanese units and the return of all the refurbished Germans there's been a healthy surplus. I suspect IE just gave up on them at that point, which seems fair enough to me. At peak times the problem is signalling enough services, not supplying enough sets to operate them. Off peak, demand drops off a cliff, as you alluded to.

But yeah, there is an interesting story from somewhere in the 2000s about what happened with these units, and I want to hear it. Not sure I ever will. Reminds me of the Class 180 DMU in the UK, also built by Alstom, and around the same time. They too were plagued with problems and the operator(First Great Western) has gotten rid of them. They even replaced them with the loco-hauled trains they were bought to supersede! But yes, there was certainly some waste of money here with the Alsom DARTs, a waste of staff time and pay, a waste of time to commuters and thus the larger economy caused by lateness due to failed trains. IE seems to have a history of buying lemons, from 121s with cabs not suitable for the network at the time, to MkIVs that weren't designed for our track quality.

dublinman1990

It is due to IMO that the public that had a DART journey on these trains were the ones that made the most complaints to dislike them very much. It is beyond me to answer the question of Why Irish Rail actually bought and like these trains in their opinion.

I don't work for Irish Rail but whatever way they thought of anyone saying within the company say ''Oh Yeah, We'll take those trains off Alstom and we use them to the best of our own ability''.

Oh of course, Oh yeah, Let me ask you the management of Irish Rail, Would anyone think now that of saying the above statement was being overly used at this point in time?

If they bought different and new sets of trains which were supposedly meant to ''be better'' than the others, I'd say it is not looking like that now is it?

I am saying that in the context that there are problems within every type of the fleet that is making the company waste so much money. The other fleet types within Irish Rail are going through those same or less severe problems now at the minute.

And the sad thing is that, it doesn't seem to end in a nice way after all the trouble.

Cookie_Monster

dublinman1990 wrote: »

It is due to IMO that the public that had a DART journey on these trains were the ones that made the most complaints to dislike them very much.

the reason for withdrawal has already been stated, they have severe mechanical issues, nothing to do with what people liked or didn't like about them.

Rashers72

I wonder will we ever hear how much this sorry episode has cost the taxpayer? Or even if we will ever get a plausible explanation of if IE got it so wrong (i.e. IE had wrong spec), or Alstom delivered dud units.
I am sure we will hear the usual cover story from IE about 'commercial sensitivities'...I think we need someone to ask the question via public accounts committee...
I actually much preferred these Alstom units to the Japanese ones we got stuck with. Much more airy, with proper spacing between seats. Proper European railway stock like the German stock.
However, if memory serves me the correctly, statistically the Alstom units had a much higher failure rate when they were used. Overall reliability improved significantly when they were withdrawn.
Just pity they were left in the sidings for so many years.:mad: I am sure we would have got more money for them if we had sold them 5 years ago, as natural depreciation will be ticking away year by year. I wonder why it took so long to make a decision to sell?
Do we actually know for definite what is wrong with these, and will the new buyer be able to resolve? i.e. was it power/motor issues etc.
Finally any thoughts on who might buy??? I wonder will Alstom take them back...

Losty Dublin

GEC/Alstom built the units and have not delivered the goods in relation to supplying basic spare parts for the units, hence them being off the road for so long. There has been legal letters between here and Spain in relation to this so it hasn't gone unaddressed. The order for them was a small order mainly to increase capacity on the line on the Greystones extension section. The fleet since then has increased substantially and they actually are not needed anymore.

As regards being sold off, if they make space at fairview from the bastarding sets and if it claws back in a little money then so be it.

@Jehunty, when class 121's were ordered, EMD didn't tender for a two cab loco; indeed all of the tenders were for one cab locos, two cabs not being specified in the tender brief.

highlydebased

Throw a loco on the front and away we go. Will never happen mind.

foggy_lad

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the reason for withdrawal has already been stated, they have severe mechanical issues, nothing to do with what people liked or didn't like about them.

I wonder will Irish rail ever divulge how much public money they squandered on these lemons? We're they actually covered by warranty or did Irish rail not return them because of some cock-up with the contract?

n97 mini

foggy_lad wrote: »

I wonder will Irish rail ever divulge how much public money they squandered on these lemons? We're they actually covered by warranty or did Irish rail not return them because of some cock-up with the contract?

A simple FOI request would answer all those questions.

L1011

"sold off" to WHERE? Even if somewhere in Brazil or Aus has 1500v DC catenary I doubt they'd want a small amount of crocked EMUs and they're not in good enough condition to justify a likely quite expensive bogie and/or power system replacement.

foggy_lad

MYOB wrote: »

"sold off" to WHERE? Even if somewhere in Brazil or Aus has 1500v DC catenary I doubt they'd want a small amount of crocked EMUs and they're not in good enough condition to justify a likely quite expensive bogie and/or power system replacement.

"sold off" = Scrapped

dowlingm

This call should have been made long before now - certainly once the 8100 refit was done. They have taken up space in Fairview and been shuttled to and from Inchicore for no discernable reason. I can only believe embarrassment is the principal reason it was not previously done - that Shane Ross might have brayed about the waste of scrapping eight year old carriages and whatnot. They don't seem like being needed for a Maynooth or Drogheda electrification either so clearly we'll have an EMU surplus for the foreseeable.

There were adventurous options which could have been taken - send them to Siemens for instance and tell them to give them as much 8100 series commonality as possible, or convert them to cab cars for a 4-car or 6-car trailer set but there wasn't the will then and there's not the money now.

dowlingm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

It has been reported from Rail Users Ireland (RUI) that the Spanish manufactured Alstom DART units are to be sold off later this year.

Where was this announced? There's nothing I can see on RUI forum. Is it members area stuff?

Never mind, found the post: http://forum.platform11.org/showpost.php?p=65914&postcount=6

testarossa40

foggy_lad wrote: »

"sold off" = Scrapped

Source???

A few posts earlier you wanted us to believe they had been refurbished...

foggy_lad

testarossa40 wrote: »

Source???

A few posts earlier you wanted us to believe they had been refurbished...

I wrongly assumed that they had been refurbished with the rest of the fleet but they were not old enough or used often enough to require refurbishment! They have spent very little time in service.

testarossa40

foggy_lad wrote: »

I wrongly assumed that they had been refurbished with the rest of the fleet but they were not old enough or used often enough to require refurbishment! They have spent very little time in service.

And source of your information that they will be scrapped? (My original question).

Cookie_Monster

testarossa40 wrote: »

And source of your information that they will be scrapped? (My original question).

supposition, as usual

foggy_lad

MYOB wrote: »

"sold off" to WHERE? Even if somewhere in Brazil or Aus has 1500v DC catenary I doubt they'd want a small amount of crocked EMUs and they're not in good enough condition to justify a likely quite expensive bogie and/or power system replacement.

testarossa40 wrote: »

And source of your information that they will be scrapped? (My original question).

They are to be sold off BUT Who would want them? What is the point of even wasting more money trying to sell these when they will most likely be scrapped by Irish Rail when nobody buys them?

noodler

As a regular user of the DART I have to say I am pissed off with these newer versions of the DART (the onese they are selling off and the ones that will remain).

It is impossible for two people to sit opposite each other without legs pushing against each other.

foggy_lad

noodler wrote: »

As a regular user of the DART I have to say I am pissed off with these newer versions of the DART (the onese they are selling off and the ones that will remain).

It is impossible for two people to sit opposite each other without legs pushing against each other.

Is it because they made room for extra wheelchair users but kept the same number of seats so there is less legroom? The Bus Eireann commuter coaches are the same, they look like two sets of seats have been removed to make room for a wheelchair but they just crammed the seats closer together.

dublinman1990

Is there any official confirmation from anyone in the NTA about selling these DART coaches BTW.

dowlingm

I don't think the NTA gets a say, do they?

Mind you I wouldn't mind seeing NTA assume ownership of all IE equipment and contract it out to Angel Trains or Porterbrook with IE just leasing to their need and other entrants getting a crack at what's left, but it won't happen.

CIE

Rashers72 wrote: »

I wonder will we ever hear how much this sorry episode has cost the taxpayer? Or even if we will ever get a plausible explanation of if IE got it so wrong (i.e. IE had wrong spec), or Alstom delivered dud units

Excellent question. They're less than 12 years old after all. A rebuild on Alstom's expense perhaps would be in order?

What happens in the case of a sudden DART shortage, i.e. an uptick in passenger use that would require extra seats? (Oh that's right; you can substitute DMUs after all, since all of the DART system is in open air and there are no asphyxiation concerns. Sure why not just de-electrify everything then to save money on the infrastructure, eh? The RPA could even de-electrify the Luas and get diesel Citadis trams; there are no underground sections on that system either.)

n97 mini wrote: »

A simple FOI request would answer all those questions

FOI requests won't answer the question as to how to get accountability to the taxpayer. All you'll get to learn is when and how much when it comes to the government wasting your money.

Run_to_da_hills

Who would buy these Dart units or will they just end up at the mercy of the gas axe like the MK3's. They should be all rounded up and dumped on a barge with a note, "return to sender".

Jehuty42 wrote: »

IE seems to have a history of buying lemons, from 121s with cabs not suitable for the network at the time, to MkIVs that weren't designed for our track quality.

121s were anything but lemons, single cab locos were very popular in other countries including the US, hooked up to a DVT or back to back which was a popular configuration with CIE.

I would have consider the 121 as one of the neatest and most versatile small loco that CIE ever had and that can be seen by its over 45 years lifespan.

The 121's would have been an excellent DVT loco for the 8200's

corktina

am I the only one who thinks the use of phrases such as EMU and DMU sounds foreign?

Run_to_da_hills

corktina wrote: »

am I the only one who thinks the use of phrases such as EMU and DMU sounds foreign?

EMU is definitely of Australian origin.

dowlingm

n97 mini wrote: »

A simple FOI request would answer all those questions.

no it probably wouldn't. IE is not subject to FOI. Maybe the Department would know, but it's not guaranteed.

Niles

corktina wrote: »

am I the only one who thinks the use of phrases such as EMU and DMU sounds foreign?

I think the term EMU is officially used by IÉ but I'm pretty certain the term DMU isn't, just railcar (or ICR in the case of the 22000s).

Apart from the Australian animal, I also think of the European Monetary Union...

dublinman1990

Niles wrote: »

I think EMU is officially used by IÉ but I'm pretty certain DMU isn't, just railcar (or ICR in the case of the 22000s).

Apart from the Australian animal, I also think of the European Monetary Union...

In railway terms, a DMU is known as a Diesel Multiple Unit.

Therefore an EMU is known as a Electric Multiple Unit.

CIE

corktina wrote: »

am I the only one who thinks the use of phrases such as EMU and DMU sounds foreign?

They're not phrases; they're acronyms, no more "foreign" than "DVT". They're old acronyms, at that; I remember reading about the 8100/8300-class being described as "EMU" back when they first came out.