Sinn Fein and the "T"?

Azure_sky

OK folks, I've heard conflicting reports and to be honest, in the past, I honestly wonder does Sinn Fein even know what the "T" stands for. ( I'm kind of a cynic when it comes to politics-I'm sure I'm not alone...).

Essentially, the question is simple. Where does Sinn Fein stand with the "T"?
If they support transgenders they have my vote. I just want a straight answer. (Yes, I'm aware of the irony, so don't bother pointing it out.:p)

Annasopra

I'm not 100% sure - a lot of the policy they have that's available online is quite old and mentions lgb. I know they an LGBT committee but I'm not really sure much about things they have done.

wonderfulname

Deputy Jonathan O&#8217 wrote: »

Sinn Féin has always supported socially progressive legislation and will support this Bill. We would like to see further legislation on issues such as civil marriage and transgender recognition brought before the House. These issues need to be progressed at the earliest possible opportunity. This is in keeping with the spirit, ideology and practice of Republicanism in terms of promoting equality among all citizens.

From dail debate on the finance bill related to CP legislation.

This kind of stuff crops up from them now and then, but I've always taken it to be less than sincere (although I greatly respect Ó Snodaigh for that second link, he does actually seem to "stand with the T"), they seem to support everyone in the right context, they'd get behind the DUP if they thought only DUP supporters were paying attention... but that's just my opinion...

Dark Chocolate

It may be a cynical view, but is that 'then' link not just an an opportunity to voice support for '<insert minority/marginalised group here> and take a cheap political potshot at a government measure? In a political environment where they're looking to broaden and build their support base, it just seems like an opening was seen to earn some kudos for their support. It would be interesting to know if there is any substance behind it or if it was just seizing the moment.

onlyrocknroll

Dark Chocolate wrote: »

It may be a cynical view, but is that 'then' link not just an an opportunity to voice support for '<insert minority/marginalised group here> and take a cheap political potshot at a government measure? In a political environment where they're looking to broaden and build their support base, it just seems like an opening was seen to earn some kudos for their support. It would be interesting to know if there is any substance behind it or if it was just seizing the moment.

I think that you might be a little too cynical, supporting a minority issue that is (tragically) opposed by the mainstream voter does require some bravery. Especially considering that Sein Fein would be best advised from a political point of view to try to broaden their appeal to those some voters with more conservative views.

Having said that if Sein Fein were ever actually in power, I would imagine that they might suddenly lose interest in the matter.

Dark Chocolate

Ah, now who's being cynical? A government party losing interest in a minority issue? G'wan outta that!

L.Jenkins

onlyrocknroll wrote: »

Having said that if Sein Fein were ever actually in power, I would imagine that they might suddenly lose interest in the matter.

Sure I reluctantly voted for Labour in the last general election thinking they were the best thing since sliced bread for the LGBT community. Now I realise that Joan Burtons' sincere fúck up regarding Gender Recognition leaves me thinking, never again. So I'm going to hastle my own local TD, Ming the Merciless as he has been dubbed. To finish, I've become severly disillusioned with party politics and will stick with the independants from here on out.

Annasopra

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

Sure I reluctantly voted for Labour in the last general election thinking they were the best thing since sliced bread for the LGBT community. Now I realise that Joan Burtons' sincere fúck up regarding Gender Recognition leaves me thinking, never again. So I'm going to hastle my own local TD, Ming the Merciless as he has been dubbed. To finish, I've become severly disillusioned with party politics and will stick with the independants from here on out.

The previous government (Eamon O Cuiv) put in place the GRAG group on which the GRAG report recommendations were made. It's not fair or correct to say that Joan Burton ****ed up on this at all particularly since we haven't seen any proposed legislation yet so we have no idea if Joan Burton is taking on board all of the GRAG report recommendations.

L.Jenkins

Yeah I understand that, but the recommendations are nearly a carbon copy of UK legislation released in 2004. It almost seems that Joan didn't bother her árse to take any recommendations into consideration at all.

Annasopra

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

Yeah I understand that, but the recommendations are nearly a carbon copy of UK legislation released in 2004. It almost seems that Joan didn't bother her árse to take any recommendations into consideration at all.

Joan didn't write the report - the GRAG group set up by Eamon O Cuiv did. This really is not a fcuk by Joan. If the law follows the recommendations - that will be.

Azure_sky

wonderfulname wrote: »

From dail debate on the finance bill related to CP legislation.

This kind of stuff crops up from them now and then, but I've always taken it to be less than sincere (although I greatly respect Ó Snodaigh for that second link, he does actually seem to "stand with the T"), they seem to support everyone in the right context, they'd get behind the DUP if they thought only DUP supporters were paying attention... but that's just my opinion...

To be honest I was thinking along those lines myself. I think pretty much all political parties are like this-salmon socialists... I can't help but think what James Connolly would make of Labour, and what Collins would make of Fine Gael if they were alive today. Perhaps I'm wrong about Sinn Fein. I hope so. It would be nice to have the option of a genuine alternative instead of all these centrist parties.

I'm sick of douche vs turd.

wonderfulname

Dark Chocolate wrote: »

It may be a cynical view, but is that 'then' link not just an an opportunity to voice support for '<insert minority/marginalised group here> and take a cheap political potshot at a government measure? In a political environment where they're looking to broaden and build their support base, it just seems like an opening was seen to earn some kudos for their support. It would be interesting to know if there is any substance behind it or if it was just seizing the moment.

You could look at it like that alright, but were I being "political" in that situation I would have just kept my trap shut, votes wise I'd imagine it would be the best thing all round, and it's not the only time he's stuck his neck out in that regard.

Annasopra

wonderfulname wrote: »

From dail debate on the finance bill related to CP legislation.

This kind of stuff crops up from them now and then, but I've always taken it to be less than sincere (although I greatly respect Ó Snodaigh for that second link, he does actually seem to "stand with the T"), they seem to support everyone in the right context, they'd get behind the DUP if they thought only DUP supporters were paying attention... but that's just my opinion...

I think Aengus O Snodaigh is sincere in this regard.

LegacyUser

mango salsa wrote: »

I think Aengus O Snodaigh is sincere in this regard.

If we can be sure of anything it is this. Also Sinn Féin are not winning any voters over for supporting LGBT so I do not see where the cyncism is coming from.

Annasopra

one_shure_thing wrote: »

If we can be sure of anything it is this. Also Sinn Féin are not winning any voters over for supporting LGBT so I do not see where the cyncism is coming from.

ah come on now - supporting lgbt rights does win some votes

wonderfulname

It's one demographic you can be certain is vote creating, there are very few groups where a statement of support will result in a high percentage following regardless of your other policies, ugly but true.

Louisevb

ItsThatManAgain wrote: »

Sure I reluctantly voted for Labour in the last general election thinking they were the best thing since sliced bread for the LGBT community. Now I realise that Joan Burtons' sincere fúck up regarding Gender Recognition leaves me thinking, never again. So I'm going to hastle my own local TD, Ming the Merciless as he has been dubbed. To finish, I've become severly disillusioned with party politics and will stick with the independants from here on out.

Joan Burton didn't **** up as you seem to think.. The GRAG report was on her desk when she arrived in power last year as it was set up by the FF government. What she did was publish it. There is a lot of work going on now to lobby for changes to that report, particularly medicalisation and forced divorce both of which are equality and human rights issues. Please get involved with TENI if you want to see changes made.
S F do support LGBT rights both north and south. Where I have a problem is the fact that over 30 years you couldn't believe one word they would say. Their PR has been good but again it's gloss before substance. If they were in power today they would be doing the same things as FG Labour but with less experience particularly around financial matters

jaffacakesyum

wonderfulname wrote: »

It's one demographic you can be certain is vote creating, there are very few groups where a statement of support will result in a high percentage following regardless of your other policies, ugly but true.

Yeah you hit the nail on the head there.

I never understand why people will vote for a party simply on their LGBT stance when the rest of their policies can be ridiculous.

LegacyUser

mango salsa wrote: »

ah come on now - supporting lgbt rights does win some votes

Not compared to the amount of votes they would lose.

This is Ireland do not be fooled this country is still very very very conservative and SF voters are still predominantly catholic.

Annasopra

one_shure_thing wrote: »

Not compared to the amount of votes they would lose.

This is Ireland do not be fooled this country is still very very very conservative and SF voters are still predominantly catholic.

Not convinced at all

Fenian Army

Sinn Féin would enact Gender recognition legislation and that the process for gender recognition would involve people self selecting their gender by presenting an affidavit.


Is that what you mean by supporting transgenders?

What else would you want to see? Off the top of my head the above is all I can remember about SFs commitments to transgender people but ther may be more.

As for gays SF support gay marriage and adoption and want better hate crime legislation to deal with homophobia and transphobia.

Annasopra

Fenian Army wrote: »

Sinn Féin would enact Gender recognition legislation and that the process for gender recognition would involve people self selecting their gender by presenting an affidavit.

Is that in a manifesto somewhere?

Fenian Army

mango salsa wrote: »

Is that in a manifesto somewhere?

No, the LGBT stuff available on the site etc is woefully out of date, but what I said is the parties position.


Currently new LGBT policy is being drawn up and as I understand it there will be consultation with the LGBT community and the policy will then be approved by next years ard fheis.

anotherlostie

I'm deeply cynical of the progressive arm of SF and perhaps this isn't the place to discuss (I have a deep distrust of a party who's key economic principles are to hike up taxes on multinationals and make them bolt to lower tax economies within months, leaving us even more ruined, and of course to promote job generation seemingly by Mary Lou waving the magic wand of soundbites...).

I'm from the Northern end of the country and I know what their grassroots is like, and inclusive of LGBT is not in the make up of all but the youngest generation. I'd have a suspicion that these initiatives will be welcomed at congresses and so on as potential vote catchers in certain demographics (while not being publicized to the older core) but in the event (and not so unlikely now with the demise of FF) of them being in power, these initiatives will be put on the back burner to appease the grassroots.

HamletOrHecuba

Fenian Army wrote: »

As for gays SF support gay marriage and adoption and want better hate crime legislation to deal with homophobia and transphobia.

Better hate crime legislation as in making it actually a prison offense to teach and argue what Christians have always believed on these topics?

Fenian Army

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Better hate crime legislation as in making it actually a prison offense to teach and argue what Christians have always believed on these topics?

How is that a hate crime?

Nasty, bigoted yes, but a hate crime?

HamletOrHecuba

Fenian Army wrote: »

How is that a hate crime?

Nasty, bigoted yes, but a hate crime?

Saying for instance that homosexuals are evil or that homosexuality should be against the law could easily be made to fit the hate crime mold could it not? How would you define a hate crime?

Fenian Army

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Saying for instance that homosexuals are evil or that homosexuality should be against the law could easily be made to fit the hate crime mold could it not? How would you define a hate crime?

I would have defined a hate crime as attacking someone because of their race, sexual orientation etc

Hate crime legislation would make punishments more severe for things which are already crimes, like assault, if the person was subjected to that crime simply because of their gender identity, sexuality etc.

What you mention is hate speech, something entirely different

HamletOrHecuba

Fenian Army wrote: »

Hate crime legislation would make punishments more severe for things which are already crimes, like assault, if the person was subjected to that crime simply because of their gender identity, sexuality etc.

What you mention is hate speech, something entirely different

Okay fair enough, laws against violence are already on the books though both in Ireland and Ulster, so basically Sinn Fein believe that violence against people with strange sexual tastes is worse than violence against normal people, now if I said that I believe that violence against white should be punished more than violence against black people how would most people react?

Fenian Army

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Okay fair enough, laws against violence are already on the books though both in Ireland and Ulster, so basically Sinn Fein believe that violence against people with strange sexual tastes is worse than violence against normal people, now if I said that I believe that violence against white should be punished more than violence against black people how would most people react?

I can't be bothered with this ignorance... I think its willful.

HamletOrHecuba

Fenian Army wrote: »

I can't be bothered with this ignorance... I think its willful.

Mate you are on the saying that violence against homosexuals and their ilk should be punished more than violence against normal people- how is that essentially different from saying that violence against white people should be punished more than violence against black people?

Well given that Sinn Fein believe that the families those killed on bloody Sunday are so infinitely more deserving than the families of those murdered at Kingsmill Im not that shocked with your party's attitude.

Sonics2k

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Mate you are on the saying that violence against homosexuals and their ilk should be punished more than violence against normal people- how is that essentially different from saying that violence against white people should be punished more than violence against black people?

Well given that Sinn Fein believe that the families those killed on bloody Sunday are so infinitely more deserving than the families of those murdered at Kingsmill Im not that shocked with your party's attitude.

I think you misunderstand what a Hate crime is.

Let's say a person is assaulted.
It is considered a normal assault if they are simply attacked for the sake of it, or to steal from them or similar.

It becomes a Hate crime when the entire motivation is based on the persons Sexuality/Gender/Race/Religion or similar.

Let's say you are assaulted by a group of um.. Scientologists, and the sole reason for wanting to cause severe injury to you, is because you are a Christian. Then that would/could be considered a hate crime.

p.s. use of the word 'ilk' is probably not the best word to use. It's not exactly a pleasant term.

Nodin

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

Okay fair enough, laws against violence are already on the books though both in Ireland and Ulster, so basically Sinn Fein believe that violence against people with strange sexual tastes is worse than violence against normal people, now if I said that I believe that violence against white should be punished more than violence against black people how would most people react?

"normal people"? I thought we'd gone past the stage where people were classed as normal or abnormal by the sexual gender of their partners.

HamletOrHecuba

Sonics2k wrote: »

Let's say you are assaulted by a group of um.. Scientologists, and the sole reason for wanting to cause severe injury to you, is because you are a Christian. Then that would/could be considered a hate crime.

p.s. use of the word 'ilk' is probably not the best word to use. It's not exactly a pleasant term.

If a Scientologist or much more likely a homosexual assults me because of Im a Christian (which has happened) than that can be dealt with under the laws dealing with violence, can they not? Whether someone punches me because Im a Christian or because they thought I gave them a funny look well its still the same crime thats being committed at the end of the day. All this hate crime nonsense is doing is putting sacred minorities up on an even higher pedestal.

Fenian Army

HamletOrHecuba wrote: »

If a Scientologist or much more likely a homosexual assults me because of Im a Christian (which has happened) than that can be dealt with under the laws dealing with violence, can they not? Whether someone punches me because Im a Christian or because they thought I gave them a funny look well its still the same crime thats being committed at the end of the day. All this hate crime nonsense is doing is putting sacred minorities up on an even higher pedestal.

You would have thought you'd have been safe from those evil Christian lynching homosexuals under your bridge.

Annasopra

Folks - gentle warning - please make sure you are familiar with the forum charter

shoegirl

From what I know of them they are generally supportive, but like all parties there may be an element that is uncomfortable.