NON Saorsat 20Ghz KA Transmissions from Satellite

zg3409

Hi,

Most LNBs receive in the 10-12 Gighertz range. A part of Saorsat (another thread) LNBs that cover 19.7-20.2Ghz are now easily available. This band is generally used for direct to home satellite Internet. It can also be used for TV especially feeds from outside broadcasts etc.

Now that 20Ghz LNBs are available it makes sense for hobbiests to scan the Skies to see what is being broadcast from different orbital positions.

I do not really have the ideal setup to hunt but ideally you need a 20Ghz LNB, a motorised large dish, a receiver with DVB-S2 HD capability, a spectrum analyser and time to search day and night (best in afternoons) for feeds that may appear and disapear.

Just in case there is any confusion, any satellite box will work at 20Ghz even if there is no option in the menu. The display may show wrong frequencies if a "universal LNB" is selected, but it will work OK.

In one forum a guy mentioned "There is KA (20Ghz) from Astra 4A, Hotbird 6, Astra 1L, Astra 3B, and they do not use a mini spot beams. Would be interesting to see what is sent over it."

The LNBs available will receive left hand circular polarisations and right hand circular polarisation (similar to horizontal and vertical) This is changed by the normal 13/18V Horizontal/Vertical in a satellite boxes menu.

If someone with the right LNB could do a "blind scan" on the above satellites, especially in the afternoons and post the results I would be grateful.

Many modern feeds are encrypted, but then again the required equipment was not available to the public until now. Also when using a 20Ghz LNB the dish appears much more directional, so a 80cm or greater dish is much harder to point correctly.

The right LNB can be bought here:
http://www.onwave.ie/saorview_parts

but note my warnings:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76850522&postcount=1967

Details on the LNB are here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=76882121&postcount=2009

Is there anything like Lyngsat that list the above satellites and what they broadcast on KA (20Ghz) band? such as :
http://www.lyngsat.com/eka.html
I think we may have to create one! Before we all get our hopes up there may be nothing useful there. I would be ideal if someone who has already got one went ahead with tests.

dxhound2005

Found this list of frequencies.

http://www.uhf-satcom.com/kaband/

zg3409

I have seen that list before and I am in contact with the guy

I have an LNB from the USA

The "normal" one is 19.7-20.2

Mine is:
18.3GHz – 18.8GHz and 19.7GHz – 20.2GHz
The lower band needs an upconverter, which I have.

See here for more info:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=74594142&postcount=1616

Hughes LNBs etc might also cover more or less. I don't really have the setup for doing this.

watty

AFAIK it's all Internet, data, telemetery.

Any OB that might use it can use a VSAT and stream video using UDP. OB links don't need Broadcast mode.

Is there a single report of actual TV on Ka-band in Europe other than Saorsat?

I admit it's about 6 months since I discussed this with Christian Lyngmark who runs Lyngsat. He wasn't inclined to put up pages for ANY Ka-band until I convinced him RTE Saorsat would be TV broadcast on Ka Band on Ka-Sat.

http://www.lyngsat.com/europe.html
http://www.lyngsat.com/atlantic.html

Note no Ka-band listed on HB6 @ 13e. Because it's all Internet only.

http://www.uhf-satcom.com/kaband/ is an impressive list. But is there any evidence it's not all data?

Anyone found ANY TV apart from Saorsat in Europe on Ka Band?

dxhound2005

I see the new Hylas satellite launching in July has 24 Ka tp's. The current one has 8 which are all for broadband, maybe 24 could allow them to do other things, I really have no idea.

http://www.lyngsat.com/launches/2012.html

Off topic I see the next launch is on 14 Feb to 22 West and Flysat shows a very good Ku beam for Ireland.

https://sat.ses.com/webservice/images/7406365

chariot

blindscan with S2 receiver on Ka-sat / Hylas Ka.. no luck.

Does anyone know if there is Ka-band TV or even data on any other satellite that can be used has reception test signals (DVB-S/S2), AFAIK all Ka-band internet is on exotic modulations (turbo codes, acm/vcm).

zg3409

I am not sure which position in the Sky you scanned?


Anyway:

Exactly, and besides, there is still EuroBird 9A Ka-band from Astra 4A, Hotbird 6, Astra 1L, Astra 3B, do not use a mini spot beams. Would be interesting to see what is sent over it.

From a forum in German:

http://forum.dxtv.de/wbb//thread.php?threadid=18835&threadview=0&hilight=&hilightuser=0&page=7

or translation:
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=de&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fforum.dxtv.de%2Fwbb%2F%2Fthread.php%3Fthreadid%3D18835%26threadview%3D0%26hilight%3D%26hilightuser%3D0%26page%3D7

on the next page:
Does anyone have information about Best TV on 23.5 ° East?
What makes me a bit puzzled: The link to the Ka-band on Astra 3B is linear polarization, the Ka-band LNB from Ireland but is circular.

then the reply:
afaik this all happens in the 24 GHz range. The Irish KA band LNB to receive the 20 GHz band.
That's the goofy at KA-band. 1 LNB is simply not enough to receive the complete KA.


So it appears some Satellites may be using it for TV, but it may be at 24Ghz which is no good for our current LNB. It is realistic to think if it is being used for internet, it may also be used for TV links for Cable head ends etc. There is also a reasonable chance it is unencrypted.

Do you have a spectrum analyser to at least find that there is something there?
Do you have a make of receiver that can decode the special format used in some feeds?

I am not saying it will be easy to find anything, but there may be something to find.

chariot

Thanks for your reply.

I am not sure which position in the Sky you scanned?

9E East & 33.5° West with a Inverto Ka White , got very clear and strong signal on satfinder on these positions. (outside ireland spotbeam, no saorsat)

Do you have a make of receiver that can decode the special format used in some feeds?

DVB S & S2 receiver with blind scan and 16/32apsk capable.

I am not saying it will be easy to find anything, but there may be something to find.

I know ka band is pretty new & experimental, for this reason i'm looking for some transponder that at least can lock with my receiver even if there isn't video on it.

What makes me a bit puzzled: The link to the Ka-band on Astra 3B is linear polarization, the Ka-band LNB from Ireland but is circular.

AFAIK if you receive linear with circular have a 3db loss, will work but only if there is no other signal in the same h/v polarization.

zg3409

http://flysat.com/hylas1.php

These are just all internet transmissions but submission is a year old, there may be TV ones there now, or some day

It seems right frequency range and circular polarisation. However is 33.5 West even receivable in Ireland?

watty

Yes, people in Ireland have internet subscriptions on Hylas1. It's a similar elevation to Sky/Freesat except South West instead of South East. I get up to 42E to 50W. It's capacity is managed by Avanti who may partly own it. Qsat are their agents in Ireland. Hylas 1 has two ka-Band spots over Ireland & UK. It's quite low overall capacity compared to Ka-Sat's 82 spots. It also has Military and Experimental payloads, so Avanti got it "cheap". Avanti probably has some private video conferencing on Hylas 1, but they will likely use the Internet mode (VSAT) for that as it's usually two way.

If there was ANY TV on Ka Band in Europe other than Saorsat I'm sure it would be on lyngsat.

Eutelsat will crow when they get a second Ka-Sat TV customer.
Ses-Astra will have some ka too

Future Launches with Ka band on them:
http://www.lyngsat.com/launches/ka.html

Saorsat is the first European DTH Ka-band TV. It's likely in the next few years that other regional services, 2K Cinema feeds, OB feeds and DTT / Cable head feeds will use Ka Band services. But at the minute there is only Saorsat.

zg3409

Again I am dragging up this topic, but also with more help from abroad and more frequencies to look at.

The Saorsat LNB covers
The "normal" one is 19.7-20.2

Mine is:
18.3GHz – 18.8GHz and 19.7GHz – 20.2GHz
The lower band needs an upconverter, which I have.

I am hoping to work with this other European guy on scanning all European Sats.

Ideally I would like help from someone in the Dublin area with a large motorised dish and a spectrum analyser, ideally with special software/hardware for picking out feeds and blind scanning automatically, although anyone with a big motorised dish will do.

I will also consider outside of Dublin.

The challenge is to first Scan KA using a Saorsat LNB on all European Sats. I can provide LNB.

The next stage is to Scan lower KA using my USA LNB. This would need to be mounted using tape beside the normal LNB.

Anyone up for this? PM me or reply here!

If anyone has a motorised dish going cheap/loan too that would help!!

satwyn

zg3409 wrote: »

Again I am dragging up this topic, but also with more help from abroad and more frequencies to look at.

The Saorsat LNB covers
The "normal" one is 19.7-20.2

Mine is:
18.3GHz – 18.8GHz and 19.7GHz – 20.2GHz
The lower band needs an upconverter, which I have.

I am hoping to work with this other European guy on scanning all European Sats.

Ideally I would like help from someone in the Dublin area with a large motorised dish and a spectrum analyser, ideally with special software/hardware for picking out feeds and blind scanning automatically, although anyone with a big motorised dish will do.

I will also consider outside of Dublin.

The challenge is to first Scan KA using a Saorsat LNB on all European Sats. I can provide LNB.

The next stage is to Scan lower KA using my USA LNB. This would need to be mounted using tape beside the normal LNB.

Anyone up for this? PM me or reply here!

If anyone has a motorised dish going cheap/loan too that would help!!

i can loan you a motorised dish no problem i have the ka band lnb for rte 9e 1.2m was the smallest i could get a lock on but the hughes lnb was used without feedhorn so with the inverto ka lnbf maybe 1m would work i also use 1.8m dish motorised for c/ku/ka band feedhunting but ka i think is not widely used for video in europe i was afaik the first to lock onto the rte feed on 9e here in mainland wales

zg3409

satwyn wrote: »

i can loan you a motorised dish no problem i have the ka band lnb for rte 9e 1.2m was the smallest i could get a lock on but the hughes lnb was used without feedhorn so with the inverto ka lnbf maybe 1m would work i also use 1.8m dish motorised for c/ku/ka band feedhunting but ka i think is not widely used for video in europe i was afaik the first to lock onto the rte feed on 9e here in mainland wales

Thanks for the generous offer, however since I wrote that I have bought my own motor. I have too many dishes myself. I am very slowly building my equipment up to the point where I can perform a full scan of the skies.

I find a small dish is often fine for KA and far easier to point but I have a variety of sizes. I agree there may be nothing to find, but you never know....

There is nearly defintely unencrypted internet downlinks.

Apogee

FYI Interesting site with Ka-feeds here - click through for spectrum pics:
http://www.dxsatcs.com/content/satellite-list-ka-band


"KA band satellite reception videos-Eutelsat 7A-W3A at 7.0°E : FIRST LIVE FEED BROADCAST in KA band"**
http://www.dxsatcs.com/ka-band-reception-videos

**It's arguable whether it's the first feed or not, given previous transmissions noted in #2

remlap

Anyway to mod the Soarsat LNB to linear easily?

Apogee

You would probably need to remove the LNBF cap to see what's going on as it depends on how they are depolarising the signal. If it's a small teflon slab insert in the throat, it would just be a case of removing it.

If it's a modification of feedhorn itself (eg ridges in the throat of the LNBF) then you'd be faced with trying to file it down.

In any case you should still be able to receive H/V signals, but with a 3dB reduction in signal and the cross-polarisation rejection will go through the floor (i.e. you will receive both H and V signals simultaneously - a problem if they are both on the same frequencies).

See here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=72485545&postcount=70

remlap

I was expecting it to be that just wondering if anyone's opened one up yet. They are quite pricey just wondering if it could be done.

I really have no idea how strong the feeds are on 7E just to put it on and hope for the best with 3dB loss.

Thinking it maybe my spring/summer thing for 2013 on my 1.2m Gibertini that's currently got a C-Band LNB on her.

Cheers mate

Apogee

Unfortunately, the feeds reported on that site for 7E (21.5-21.6GHz) are outside the range of a Ka-sat/Saorsat LNBF (19.7-20.2GHz)
http://www.dxsatcs.com/ka-band-reception-videos

remlap

Oh well then, scrap that idea

remlap

Any truth to what I am hearing that Inverto have a new 40mm collar KA band LNB that goes up to 22GHz?

zg3409

MBSnr wrote: »

Astra 2F Downlink frequency
Ka-band:
18.85 – 22.00 GHz

Interesting. Are these signals LHCP or RHCP, or horizontal and vertical?. The Saorsat LNB only covers 19.7 ~ 20.2 GHz LHCP and RHCP

The USA LNB from DirecTV I have covers 18.3GHz – 18.8GHz and 19.7GHz – 20.2GHz LHCP and RHCP

From the above I suspect the downlinks would be used for feeds at least initially (unless they go the whole 2 way internet route, but then existing tooway equipment would not cover the entire band, also the lack of dozens of spots would suggest not).

It might also suggest that a wider range LNB might be on the cards as suggested. However 22-18.85= 3.15Ghz which would mean the LNB would need low band and high band switching.

The USA LNB has a LO of 18.050 approx
22.00 - 18.050 = 3.95Ghz
18.85 - 18.050 = 800Mhz

Saorsat LNB has a LO of 21.2
22.00 - 21.2 = 0.8Ghz
18.85 - 21.2 = 2.35Ghz (inverted)
I would suggest the Saorsat LNB is less useful as the middle of the band (21.2) is probably blocked by the LO of the unit itself. However I have a spectrum analyser that covers up to 2.5Ghz so it should be able to detect some spikes if tests occur.

What are the local oscillators of the tooway Tria LNBs? I know they have a 300 - 800Mhz output when in single feed mode. In dual feed mode they output 1000-1500Mhz. I would suspect these are less useful as they probably contain better filters.

Can anyone recommend any cheap/secondhand equipment that would cover the complete range or a modification?

I am tempted to just try the existing two LNBs. Even though some frequencies are out of the theoretical range of the LNB, there is a very high chance it would let something through. I could try opening it up and bypassing any filters, but without proper test gear it would be very hit and miss.

zg3409

It seems as if it is to be used for internet, at least according to wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astra_2F

While it says here it's linear
http://www.ses.com/4628845/astra-2f
and it says 3 KA tranponders.

While here:
http://marcus21.altervista.org/File/astra-2f.pdf
it says circular (for uplink, so assuming downlink too)

Existing tooway equipment may work off the shelf properly.

Apogee

zg3409 wrote: »

The USA LNB from DirecTV I have covers 18.3GHz – 18.8GHz and 19.7GHz – 20.2GHz LHCP and RHCP

The 18.3-18.8 GHz region might be worth looking at again for 19E

http://www.flysat.com/astra1h.php

The signals at 18366/V and 18359/H might be difficult to lock with a CP LNBF, but the one at 18460/H should be OK.

I know you modified your BBC to be permanently switched on to up-convert into the IF band, but I also recently happened across the Diseqc commands which reportedly are used by US receivers to switch on the up-conversion

dbstalk wrote:

So then the next question is, what is the signal method that is used to tell the BBCs to start broadband converting?

It's DiSEqC commands "E202" and "E203".

http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1687098#post1687098

zg3409

I have not had time to do any tests for months on this. I doubt I will get time in the near future. If someone else wants to buy/borrow my USA LNB and converter then contact me.

I was aware of the E202, E203. I used a DiSEqC generator to come up with the modification. I think the actual code to send is something like E0202 or similar, not as mentioned on the link. I think my mod is easier that trying to get boxes to send extra commands.

I would like to do these tests, especially as there now seems to be a known signal to find, a challenge!

Apogee

Some info on the Inverto Ka-band LNBF from Paul Marsh of UHF-Satcom

https://twitter.com/uhf_satcom/status/249048640927182849

Internals:



There is a post on DxTV.de of an attempt to modify the oscillator but it proved unsuccessful (second post)

http://forum.dxtv.de/wbb/thread.php?threadid=20631

Apogee

A video I dug out from from some old episode I'd recorded time back on modifying the LO in a LNB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cs6jvJ5_Qc

zg3409

Apogee wrote: »

I know you modified your BBC to be permanently switched on to up-convert into the IF band, but I also recently happened across the Diseqc commands which reportedly are used by US receivers to switch on the up-conversion
http://www.dbstalk.com/showthread.php?p=1687098#post1687098

The commands that work are:
E20300 for on (convert)
E20200 for off (passthrough)

dxhound2005

Some Ka on 16 East. Footprint covers part of England.

http://www.dxsatcs.com/content/ka-band-eutelsat-16a-w3c-16-east-ka-band-frequencies-reception-satellite-list-analysis

remlap

Looks like Inverto has a new circular LNB out for 21.4 - 22GHz

http://www.inverto.tv/products/product.php?section=1&id=249&cat=66

Apogee

Article on Ka-band reception using Saorsat and DirecTV LNBFs from current edition of Tele-Satellite.

zg3409

Apogee wrote: »

Article on Ka-band reception using Saorsat and DirecTV LNBFs from current edition of Tele-Satellite.

I have emailed that guy and asked for my cut from the article , if I can help him in any way with tests.

In particular I would like to use a tooway KA internet dish and reverse engineer the communications between the TRIA (on the arm) and the indoor control box.

Apogee

I saw the link at the end of the article to the thread on satelliteguys forum where you furnished him with all the info on the BBC etc