Women and Crime

Denerick

This seems like a simple question, but I know it'll have very complex answers.

Why do women seem to commit so few crimes compared to men?

When we take away victimless crimes like prostitution or drug taking the figures become even more stark.

Why is this?

The Corinthian

Do you have some data to support this claim of yours?

Denerick

Do you have some data to support this claim of yours?

The prison population, popular perception, trends in violent crime, studies examining gender attitudes with regards to honesty and deference to authority, national crime statistics. In fact its so well known by law enforcement professionals, academics, governments, anti crime groups and society-at-large that it even has a term - 'gender ratio' (Referring to criminal activity)

I'm loathe to accept commonly held truisms unless they're backed by rigorous evidence, but to claim that there is no gender distortion with regards to criminality borders on the delusional.

The Corinthian

So you're not going to present data to support this claim of yours?

I ask because you're asking a simple question that you have already conceded has very complex answers. Even if one can demonstrate that women do not commit as much violent crime as men, this does mean that they commit fewer, even victimless, crimes (theft being one example of a crime that does involve a victim but not necessarily violent) - just violent ones.

As to economically motivated crimes (again theft, but also drug dealing, etc), it should be asked if those committing the crimes are supporting partners, families or spouses - meaning that women in such relationships where the man is a criminal are effectively accessories that seldom are prosecuted.

That female prison populations are smaller can also be indicative of sentence length - violent crimes typically get much longer sentences, for example. Or that the law discriminates on the basis of gender, giving more lenient sentiences or can even be immune from prosecution.

So however much you wish to dismiss a call to examine the facts, you really cannot answer your question unless we do so. So again, I would ask if you have any data to support your claim and ideally that breaks down crimes committed by gender.

Denerick

You know I don't have 'data' easily on hand. I'm not an academic, a journalist who has thoroughly investigated the issue, or even someone who cares all that much. I could, if I wanted to, start browsing the net for reports and stastics that I'm adamant would prove an underlying fact - that more crimes are committed by men, that there is a significant gender distortion with regards to crime etc. You are correct concerning women as accessories to crime, but I think thats less of a red herring and more of an irrelevance. Women aren't the people who mug you in the street. Which is the point.

Denerick

P.S- I also think its pretty bad form to ask for lots of 'data' for an informal chat on the internet. You make this feel like I'm writing an essay thats due in a couple of hours.

The Corinthian

Denerick wrote: »

P.S- I also think its pretty bad form to ask for lots of 'data' for an informal chat on the internet. You make this feel like I'm writing an essay thats due in a couple of hours.

I've not asked for 'lots of data', but you've supplied none. You've simply asked us to accept an 'underlying fact' at face value without either proof nor analysis and then sought that we should voice an opinion on it, based on ignorance.

So this is my response; it is an almost certainty that men commit the vast majority of violent crimes. However, this does not mean that men commit more crimes (even those that are not victimless) than women. Neither does it mean that men are inherently more willing to do so. Or all crimes carried out by women are treated as such.

So without some data to analyse and discuss, then all we have is opinion and hypothesis and that's frankly a waste of time.

So either we examine the question empirically, otherwise you are perhaps better off restarting this thread somewhere like After Hours.

Denerick

The Corinthian wrote: »

I've not asked for 'lots of data', but you've supplied none. You've simply asked us to accept an 'underlying fact' at face value without either proof nor analysis and then sought that we should voice an opinion on it, based on ignorance.

So this is my response; it is an almost certainty that men commit the vast majority of violent crimes. However, this does not mean that men commit more crimes (even those that are not victimless) than women. Neither does it mean that men are inherently more willing to do so. Or all crimes carried out by women are treated as such.

So without some data to analyse and discuss, then all we have is opinion and hypothesis and that's frankly a waste of time.

So either we examine the question empirically, otherwise you are perhaps better off restarting this thread somewhere like After Hours.

Sorry Professor. If you'd like I'll change the question so that it reads as 'violent' crime?

An opinion and a hypothesis! On an internet forum! What scoundrel ever conceived of such an idea?

The Corinthian

Denerick wrote: »

Sorry Professor. If you'd like I'll change the question so that it reads as 'violent' crime?

An opinion and a hypothesis! On an internet forum! What scoundrel ever conceived of such an idea?

One who bothered to test his or her opinions and hypothesises - the latter is, after all, the first step in scientific methodology.

Now we can continue with this thread so it can become an opinionfest, with everyone chiming in and giving their 2c worth, with their own 'underlying facts' or we can test and challenge these opinions and hypothesises, from the onset, which is what I have done with you.

I'm sorry if you feel offended by such a challenge that you need to attempt ridicule as a defence, but if so, and as I suggested, perhaps After Hours is a better forum for your 'style' of discussion.

looksee

Took me about 30 seconds to find http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/docs/women-criminal-justice-system-07-08.pdf see page vii, chart showing male/female crime in the UK, which is similar enough to Ireland, I doubt Irish women are more criminally minded than UK women, though I cannot prove it with figures.

Just looking at the numbers of prison places for women in the country, a casual perusal of court cases in local papers etc, it hardly needs an official survey to figure that men are more likely to commit crime than women. Anyway, there is one example of the figures, the more interesting discussion of why can hopefully now be allowed to commence?

Edit: I reckon it has something to do with an instinct for hunter-gathering 'grin' (can't do grin emoticon in edit mode)

Dubhlinner

Its much easier for a woman to have a partner provide for her than for a man to have a partner provide for him. You'll notice there's a lot less women living on the street than men too.

Lower testosterone may lead to lower risk taking. Profiting from crime on a continuous basis requires a propensity to take risks - eg drug selling requires a lot of nerve as you have the constant fear of prison.

Its easier for women to find non skilled oddjobs - eg babysitting/retail/barstaff/hotel work. I think they're slightly more trusted and businesses like having women to attract in male custom; a pretty blonde female gets in male customers but a handsome male doesn't bring in female custom - or not nearly to the same extent. Also shops that sell female only clothes hire almost 100% female sales assistants but shops that sell male clothing its 50/50

The Corinthian

looksee wrote: »

Just looking at the numbers of prison places for women in the country, a casual perusal of court cases in local papers etc, it hardly needs an official survey to figure that men are more likely to commit crime than women. Anyway, there is one example of the figures, the more interesting discussion of why can hopefully now be allowed to commence?

I think there are two things that jump out at me from that report, both of which I already touched on in my initial post here;

First is that men are significantly more likely to commit violent crime (although it should also be noted that men are also significantly more likely to be victims of violent crime, p.7). This is hardly a revelation due to the physical strength that men have in comparison to women - on average. Testosterone also adds to this, both in terms of aggression and risk taking.

The second thing that we see is that women who commit crimes are far less likely to be prosecuted or receive custodial sentences. Overall 49% of women will be cautioned rather than arrested, against 30% of men and in many cases this gap is significantly greater, such as robbery (9% vs 4%), sexual offences (47% vs 18%), violence (65% vs 42%) and theft (56% vs 30%).

Furthermore, once arrested, persons proceeded against for indictable offences per 1,000 estimated resident population, by sex, works out at 14.5 men versus only 2.3 women - which is a huge difference. The report concludes that "as a proportion of all those cautioned/warned and proceeded against, females were more likely than males to receive a caution, irrespective of age group. This was true across all offence types."

Where it comes to custodial sentences the trend continues, with 25% of men against 15% of women sentenced to immediate custody for indictable offences (p.35).

The above is a quick examination and while it certainly does look as if men commit more violent crime, one should also consider that that the apparently more favourable treatment of women for the same crimes as men has no doubt affected the overall figures.

Additionally, the above does not look at economically motivated crime, where a woman is in a far better position to look to a man to provide for her, rather than be forced into crime, or those crimes (especially sexual ones) where women are legally immune in Ireland.

So my suspicion is that once all these factors are taken into account, men will still be committing more crimes than women overall, but the gap will be significantly smaller.

Zombrex

Denerick wrote: »

This seems like a simple question, but I know it'll have very complex answers.

Why do women seem to commit so few crimes compared to men?

When we take away victimless crimes like prostitution or drug taking the figures become even more stark.

Why is this?

There are various different theories.

One is that males tend to be more physically aggressive and territorial to others without as much provocation, which can lead to violent crime. Women tend to be more socially manipulative than physically aggressive.

Another is that women would be less likely not to commit a crime as they have a greater adversion to risk taking and consider long term consequences more than men, giving the negative aspects of an action greater weight than the positive (ie men would tend to focus more on the pay off of the crime where as women focus more on the risk of punishment).

gizmorox

Denerick wrote: »

This seems like a simple question, but I know it'll have very complex answers.

Why do women seem to commit so few crimes compared to men?

When we take away victimless crimes like prostitution or drug taking the figures become even more stark.

Why is this?

This may be too little too late but here goes;)I believe the main reason is that from a very early age women are conditioned by society to be nice,nurturing,considerate etc and also...men take more risks in life,crime equals risk:)

silverharp

I think the OP is being barricked for no particular reason

The Corinthian

And why do you think that?

silverharp

The Corinthian wrote: »

And why do you think that?

the OP asked a question based on an obvious fact unless all those masked bank robbers that never get caught are women :eek:. I dont see why he has to present any statistics or be patronised with the suitable for After Hours dig. Its up to everyone to tease it out and like...discuss it.

The Corinthian

silverharp wrote: »

the OP asked a question based on an obvious fact unless all those masked bank robbers that never get caught are women :eek:.

So criminality is limited to bank robbery? Good to know.

I dont see why he has to present any statistics or be patronised with the suitable for After Hours dig. Its up to everyone to tease it out and like...discuss it.

Why do Jews have far more money than anyone else?

Effectively he asked a similar question, more correctly stated an unsubstantiated opinion. I doesn't matter if it ultimately true or not, but that he proffered nothing other than his opinion with nothing to back it up - be it statistics or even anecdotal evidence - and expected a discussion based upon what effectively read more like a rant than a question. He then got upset and defensive when this presumption was questioned - indeed, my questioning his presumption was precisely to tease out the discussion further.

Such an opening to a 'discussion' I'd expect of After Hours, where the rules of rational discourse are less important, but here there's always been a greater emphasis on reason over soap-boxing (which is forbidden in the charter, you'll find).

In the end, it was only when someone bothered to present something that could actually be discussed (and it wasn't even that difficult to find) that the discussion finally began.

silverharp

The Corinthian wrote: »

So criminality is limited to bank robbery? Good to know.

now you are just being argumentative.

The Corinthian

silverharp wrote: »

now you are just being argumentative.

Argumentative on a discussion board? Who'd have thought it?

I'm pointing out that bank robbery is not the same as criminality. If you want to discuss the latter, then the former is only one very small part of it and basing an argument on such an equation is essentially a straw man.

silverharp

The Corinthian wrote: »

Argumentative on a discussion board? Who'd have thought it?

I'm pointing out that bank robbery is not the same as criminality. If you want to discuss the latter, then the former is only one very small part of it and basing an argument on such an equation is essentially a straw man.

off the top of my head (and for sure not a complete list), when I think of the main criminality that would concern me as a citizen, property crime like burgulary , car crime, bank robbery and other commercial raids, and violence against the individual like knife crime, gun crime,other assults,rape & terrorism all strike me as overwhelmingly male crimes. So I dont need data as a opener
If you want me to provide data based on prison, see below but again, if an OP wanted to discuss why Western Europe has a higher standard of living than Cental Africa, would you ask him to prove it on the suspicion that its somehow based on prejudice or urban myth?
So sure you have the right to be pedantic and parse every sentence using set theory and look for gaps but I dont see the point in this case.






http://homepage.tinet.ie/~calypso/prison/wom.html

Ratio of males to females
Offences Against the Person 60:1
Offences Against Property 18:1
Larcenies 4:1
Other 20:1
Total 7:1

Proportion of female prisoners
Cyprus 1%
Ireland 2%
Scotland 3%
England and Wales 4%
France 4%
Netherlands 5%
Norway 5%
Portugal 8%
Spain 10%

The Corinthian

silverharp wrote: »

off the top of my head (and for sure not a complete list), when I think of the main criminality that would concern me as a citizen, property crime like burgulary , car crime, bank robbery and other commercial raids, and violence against the individual like knife crime, gun crime,other assults,rape & terrorism all strike me as overwhelmingly male crimes. So I dont need data as a opener

To begin with ignoring all but violent crime is a ridiculous way of examining the question of gender and crime as a whole as it almost seeks to cherry pick those areas that will overall agree with your hypothesis and filter out any troublesome data that may not. Violent crime may be more serious, but this should not imply that non-violent crime is not at all.

Secondly you really do need some form of evidence as an 'opener'. It doesn't have to be statistics, but as I already pointed out (and you ignored) if you don't you're really just coming out with an opinion that you may feel is self evident, but so is the opinion that 'Jews have far more money than anyone else' to some.

Finally, I have already respond to the topic, as have others, with something more than an opinion. In it, and using actual facts, I pointed out that arrest and prison figures are an inaccurate measure of the gender division of crime due to the fact that women are significantly less likely to be imprisoned or, for that matter, even arrested for the same crimes as men.

So sure you have the right to be pedantic and parse every sentence using set theory and look for gaps but I dont see the point in this case.

There's nothing pedantic about pointing out facts when they are relevant, however inconvenient they may be to the validity of your opinion. Perhaps at this stage you might instead address what I actually put forward on the subject instead of ignoring it and concentrating instead on thinly veiled ad hominem attacks.

Zulu

Because girls are made from sugar & spice, and all things nice?

Seriously though, I have to agree with TC on this one. The justice system is pretty favourable to one sex, and tends to be more condemning to the other. There's probably good reason for this - women supporting children on their own find that difficult from prison (for one), however to just suppose it's because men are "more bad" is a silliness that shouldn't be accepted without evidence. (...which is the unwritten implication of the assumption that men commit more crime than women)

Zombrex

I might have missed it, but did anyone actually say it was because men are more bad, or imply that?

Seems that this thread caused a bit of a rush to be offended, when as far as I can tell the OP was simply looking for a discussion on the social and physical factors that lead to the disparity between men and women and crime.

I mean seriously, the idea that women and men are equal and should act exactly the same surely went out with the radical notions of the 60s sexual revolution. Men and women are not the same, it would therefore not be surprising to find disparities in statistics in various areas. The notion that men commit more crime that women is pretty firmly established. I find that no more sexist than the idea that men in general are better at maths and science.

looksee

http://www.britsoccrim.org/volume2/001.pdf
http://www.cardiff.ac.uk/socsi/resources/Masculinities%20and%20White%20Collar%20Crime.pdf
http://wikigender.org/index.php/Gender_and_Crime

Two formal papers and a wiki that suggest that men commit more crime than women - even shoplifting which is considered a female crime, and in fact there are more men than women shoplifters.

Now, back on topic anyone?

The Corinthian

Zombrex wrote: »

I might have missed it, but did anyone actually say it was because men are more bad, or imply that?

Seems that this thread caused a bit of a rush to be offended, when as far as I can tell the OP was simply looking for a discussion on the social and physical factors that lead to the disparity between men and women and crime.

The only person who appears to have been offended was the OP, when his initial assertion was not simply accepted without question. TBH, there is no way that he was "simply looking for a discussion on the social and physical factors that lead to the disparity between men and women and crime" in the way that he framed the discussion from the onset.

I mean seriously, the idea that women and men are equal and should act exactly the same surely went out with the radical notions of the 60s sexual revolution. Men and women are not the same, it would therefore not be surprising to find disparities in statistics in various areas. The notion that men commit more crime that women is pretty firmly established.

That there may be disparities in statistics in various areas is not really the issue, but why there may be such disparities in statistics in various areas. In this regard, there appears to be a bit of denial going on here in that I presented evidence that points to something that would not fit the two dimensional belief that criminality is an overwhelmingly preserve.

looksee wrote: »

Two formal papers and a wiki that suggest that men commit more crime than women - even shoplifting which is considered a female crime, and in fact there are more men than women shoplifters.

With respects, two of those links are openly feminist in their bias - one of the formal papers even specifically puts forward that the "broad aims of the article are to illustrate the problematics of economic classifications and definitions in criminology and to mount an argument that suggests the whole notion of the economic within criminology demands (feminist) critique." So I'm already beginning to see a bit of an agenda here.

Also I note that you've decided not to address the points that I and others have made with regards to arrest and incarceration rates that I highlighted in the document that you actually presented earlier in this thread.

Zombrex

The Corinthian wrote: »

TBH, there is no way that he was "simply looking for a discussion on the social and physical factors that lead to the disparity between men and women and crime" in the way that he framed the discussion from the onset.

What way did he frame the discussion from the onset? He asked why is this the case, to be met with significant annoyance that he was suggesting it was in the first place.

Denerick

Zombrex wrote: »

What way did he frame the discussion from the onset? He asked why is this the case, to be met with significant annoyance that he was suggesting it was in the first place.

I haven't had internet access in a week. As I have already said, I know that men commit more crimes than women, not only is it an indisputable fact but the evidence supports it. Others have provided this evidence after a quick google search. I could have done so also but didn't feel like bowing to what I thought was a rather priggish request.

I embrace Corinthian's desire to have a substantive facts based discussion about this, it was exactly what I wanted. I wanted to see informed arguments elaborating on the various social and economic sources of gender crime distortion. By asking the question, i was not necessarily looking to be a major participant in the subsequent discussion - as I said, I'm not an academic, and the mere fact that I even asked the question should be evidence of my self admitted ignorance. In fact I spend much more time reading threads on boards than I do participating in them; thus my annoyance at the petty 'after hours' jibes.

Now gentlemen, resume your discussion.

The Corinthian

Zombrex wrote: »

What way did he frame the discussion from the onset? He asked why is this the case, to be met with significant annoyance that he was suggesting it was in the first place.

He did not simply claim that men commit more crimes than women, he went a lot further in his language:

Denerick wrote: »

Why do women seem to commit so few crimes compared to men?

When we take away victimless crimes like prostitution or drug taking the figures become even more stark.

So it was not simply a question of men committing more crimes than women, which he presented, but the presumption that men so overwhelmingly do so and/or women hardly do so at all.

This presumption, that he 'knows' to be true, is what I challenged, and did so with the evidence supplied by looksee, which demonstrated that while men may on balance 'commit' more crimes the statistics with regard to arrest, conviction and incarceration that give rise to Denerick's article of faith on this matter are skewed by the difference in which male and female perpetrators are treated.

As such, while men almost certainly do commit more crimes than women on balance, is is quite arguable that women do indeed commit so few crimes compared to men or that the true figures are in reality so stark.

I'll also note that for all the claims that people want to discuss this matter, my response with regard to this remains unremarked in this discussion.

iptba

looksee wrote: »

Took me about 30 seconds to find http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/docs/women-criminal-justice-system-07-08.pdf

Can somebody upload this somewhere from where it can be downloaded e.g. mediafire.com . Or else provide a link to it elsewhere. I've just google a phrase The Corinthian mentioned and can't see it. It looks interesting. Thanks.

(Of course, perhaps nobody stored it).

The Corinthian

iptba wrote: »

Can somebody upload this somewhere from where it can be downloaded e.g. mediafire.com . Or else provide a link to it elsewhere. I've just google a phrase The Corinthian mentioned and can't see it. It looks interesting. Thanks.

(Of course, perhaps nobody stored it).

http://lx.iriss.org.uk/content/statistics-women-and-criminal-justice-system-ministry-justice-publication-under-section-95-c