plantation for future coppice.

crackcrack30

hi guys,

Planning to plant 22 acres this spring mostly conifers, but have another pet project of a 3 acre plantation (one field with 1/3 soggy patch) for future firewood copice.....with no commericial harvest interest.

My forest management company have no problem with this and have been very professional with all plantation issues to date............................. but my concern arises with what to plant in my copice, as its purely only a coppice/ firewood interest that i have.

Are their restrictions as to what can be planted with regard to the
" species classifications" for premiums as ash/Sycamore falls under GPC 5 and alder under GPC 8 , but the forester has mentioned oak beech and jap larch? I fully understand that spruce would be best suited to the soggy bottom.

What " list of species" should i give to my forester to plant for this coppice or do regulations determine the mix......?

Wouldnt beech and oak take too long and take up valuable space from more productive wood trees like ash?

Suggestions.....???

Oldtree

I'm not sure that you would get any aid for short term planting of coppice/firewood as it is short term, with a rotation of less than 10 years or so.

Usually poplar and willows would be planted for this purpose in that type of ground and i have seen sweet chestnut also. Standards should also be done, perhaps an ash and/or alder mix for this

greenfingers89

crackcrack30 wrote: »

My forest management company have no problem with this and have been very professional with all plantation issues to date.........

why not give a clue as to who the company is? no harm in praising them seen as its quite often giving out that we do on boards......just a thought

anyway back to your questions..... shouldnt the forester be suggesting species to you instead of you to him (but dont get me wrong, its great to see your taking such a keen interest) i would never ever plant oak, beech or larch for your situation, beech and larch wont even coppice and oak will just take far too long

you can plant 10% alder into a block without breaking the rules regarding GPC so you could go for 90% ash with 10% alder. you could just plant majority of alder with a larger mix of ash through it but the forestry company mightnt be gone on this idea because the grant for GPC 8 is lower. for either situation you could mix in perhaps 10% sweet chesnut. however im extremely wary of chesnut, it will grow in nutrient rich wet ground but this is not necessarily what you describe as boggy so beware. (id steer clear to be honest)

willow and poplar are not on the approved grant species list so forget about them, neither is birch but you will get away with 10% of it.

just a word regarding oldtree mentioning coppice and suitability under the grant scheme. my experience is that if you come up with a decent proposal which will make sense then some inspectors are willing to listen. having said that i would just plant a GPC 5 block of ash with 10% alder mix and dont even mention coppice at all. when you apply for a felling licence explaining you want to coppice say 8-10 years time, you wont run into any problems getting it.....its still commercial production (in another sense of the word)

crackcrack30

Thats great,

Im hoping that since i'm planting and will be planting more next year that he'll play ball with me.....im going to be persistant with him on the suitable species.....

Do they (Mgt company) get more on their end for 'pushing' for the higher GPC groups ? the few extra quid is of little relevance to me...

The list i will give him is majority ash, with a (healthy ++) minority supplement of alder, then chestnut ( on the decent ground ) then birch.

The soggy bottom will be drained, so im confident that everything will take at its own pace, i'm not in a rush.

Thinking of going 10% diverce on the conifer plantation what would be your thinking on the 10% species? or would you just go the 100 % conifer?

again thanks for advice & info....

fodda

greenfingers89 wrote: »

just a word regarding oldtree mentioning coppice and suitability under the grant scheme. my experience is that if you come up with a decent proposal which will make sense then some inspectors are willing to listen. having said that i would just plant a GPC 5 block of ash with 10% alder mix and dont even mention coppice at all. when you apply for a felling licence explaining you want to coppice say 8-10 years time, you wont run into any problems getting it.....its still commercial production (in another sense of the word)

Why do you need a felling licence to coppice? Coppicing is the harvesting of the tree without felling (killing). So you never have to replant.

Most coppicing is done in 7 - 10 years for varied products, some even after a few years.

steelpete

why felling permit, if its for wood stove only you only need to cut down 300 to 400 trees a year about 1/4 arce a time and it will regrow, and if you doing it all the time, would you have to get a permit each year, or would onr permit do for all time.

Rovi

The General Felling License is easy to get and free, and is good for 5 years (afaik).

I'd be inclined to get one anyway, no matter if you think it's arguable whether it's relevant to your particular situation or intentions; it could be a very useful if some busybody decides to report the sound of chainsaws or if some branch of officialdom appears on site.

horsemad

I have an ash plantation of 15acres and wasJust wondering if you left the good trees and did a heavy thinning of say 60 percent and left it violist how would that work.

fodda

horsemad wrote: »

I have an ash plantation of 15acres and wasJust wondering if you left the good trees and did a heavy thinning of say 60 percent and left it violist how would that work.

Violist ?

Good trees? What are you growing the trees for?

reilig

Are you sure that you will be eligable for a grant on trees that you intend to coppace? I made an enquiry about this in the past and was told no. But rules may have changed since then?

horsemad

What I was suggesting was that if you did a heavy first thinning and left the best final crop trees. Then left thecut trees copice on for another seven years. The only problem is I think the forest service wants you to treat all the stumps as part of the felling licence.

greenfingers89

Rovi wrote: »

The General Felling License is easy to get and free, and is good for 5 years (afaik).

I'd be inclined to get one anyway, no matter if you think it's arguable whether it's relevant to your particular situation or intentions; it could be a very useful if some busybody decides to report the sound of chainsaws or if some branch of officialdom appears on site.

your 100% about 5 years. yes i suggested it for the same reasons...... covering your arse incase problems arise

greenfingers89

reilig wrote: »

Are you sure that you will be eligable for a grant on trees that you intend to coppace? I made an enquiry about this in the past and was told no. But rules may have changed since then?

in general i would say its easier to just plant as normal and in the years down the road go about coppicing....saying it up front to (some) inspectors could get a negative reaction.

there is a scheme called FEPS which has an option of planting for coppice purposes specifically mentioned here;

http://www.teagasc.ie/forestry/docs/financial_info/FEPS_scheme_2011.pdf

page 19/33, option number 18

greenfingers89

horsemad wrote: »

What I was suggesting was that if you did a heavy first thinning and left the best final crop trees. Then left thecut trees copice on for another seven years. The only problem is I think the forest service wants you to treat all the stumps as part of the felling licence.

you could do what your saying and it wouldnt be a disaster. however you would lose a lot of competition which would result in heavier side branching and slower growth. i dont see why you couldnt do an ordinary thinning say 30-40% and let it coppice instead of 60%. then when doing your second/third thinning you'll end up with over 60% gone anyway.

ye i know what your saying about treating the stumps, you need to explain your intentions to the inspector when applying for the licence. sometimes you need to be very persuasive with the inspectors

Oldtree

fodda wrote: »

Why do you need a felling licence to coppice? Coppicing is the harvesting of the tree without felling (killing). So you never have to replant.
Most coppicing is done in 7 - 10 years for varied products, some even after a few years.

we had a chat about this a short while ago:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056463097

In Definitions of the 1946 act for purposes of Part IV:

"the expression “cut down” means, in relation to a tree, cut through the trunk of the tree at a height of less than six feet from the ground surface to such an extent that the tree falls or is rendered liable to fall under the influence of natural agencies"

cutting above 6 foot is pollarding.

and in definitions: the word “tree” does not include any hazel, apple, plum, damson, pear or cherry tree grown for the value of its fruit or any ozier, but with those exceptions includes every tree of any age or any stage of growth

ozier seems to mean willow or dogwood (but i am unsure if it includes poplar or sweet chestnut) used in basket making not firewood and the word utilisation seems to be important within the act.

short rotation biomas willow production on a rotation of 2-3-4 years does not fall under the remit of the 1946 Forestry Act, possibly because it is regarded as a crop (i'm not sure exactly why though)

see page 9:

http://www.teagasc.ie/publications/2010/20100223/Manual_Final_10feb10.pdf

greenfingers89

crackcrack30 wrote: »

Do they (Mgt company) get more on their end for 'pushing' for the higher GPC groups ? the few extra quid is of little relevance to me...
.

forgot to address this a few days ago...

the grants are higher for the majority of broadleaves, the exception being alder. however this reflects the higher costs involved in their establishment. companies will rarely push broadleaves unless the site is very well suited because they could be causing more hassle than its worth for themselves