Help identifying a shell

Dummy

Hi there,

Can anyone identify what type of shell this is? We "think" it is from 1916, as the house it was found in (beneath floor boards upstairs at window) was occupied by rebel forces during the Rising.

There are no clear markings on the shell.

Long.jpg
Wide.jpg


Rgds.

D.

pedroeibar1

Dummy wrote: »

Hi there,

Can anyone identify what type of shell this is? We "think" it is from 1916, as the house it was found in (beneath floor boards upstairs at window) was occupied by rebel forces during the Rising.

There are no clear markings on the shell.

Long.jpg
Wide.jpg


Rgds.

D.

It appears to have crimping around the neck(top) which suggests that it is a case from a blank, probably from a starting pistol or a humane killer. You don't indicate if the scale is in inches or cms. Better to move this to the Shooting forum.
P

dubhthach

Moved from History & Heritage to Shooting -- OP you will probably get more help here then in H&H

kemen

yeah looks like a blank imo

tac foley

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

It appears to have crimping around the neck(top) which suggests that it is a case from a blank, probably from a starting pistol or a humane killer. You don't indicate if the scale is in inches or cms. Better to move this to the Shooting forum.
P

The scale is in inches - metric scales are NOT divided in 16ths, 32nds and 64ths.

Having been fired, it's difficult to exactly measure the original length, as it has opened out somewhat.

The head of the case measures 0.675" - considerably bigger than ANY known handgun cartridge then or now.

I'll do a bit of digging in some reference books, but right now it's looking like either a salute blank or line/harpoon gun cartridge to me.

tac

Dummy

tac foley wrote: »

The scale is in inches - metric scales are NOT divided in 16ths, 32nds and 64ths.

Having been fired, it's difficult to exactly measure the original length, as it has opened out somewhat.

The head of the case measures 0.675" - considerably bigger than ANY known handgun cartridge then or now.

I'll do a bit of digging in some reference books, but right now it's looking like either a salute blank or line/harpoon gun cartridge to me.

tac

Thanks Tac.

I have found references to the gun battles that took place from this house and the joining premises in 1916 and am now trying to find what arms they would have had. There were about 12 of these shells found under a floor board at a window at the front of the house.


D.

Grizzly 45

Any recent renevoations on the building??Within the last 40 years or so?Like new flooring?They could be possibly be HILTI gun blank cartridges for driving nails too.:(Tossed in good lazy builder manner under the floorboards as never to be seen again trash.

Gonzor

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Any recent renevoations on the building??Within the last 40 years or so?Like new flooring?They could be possibly be HILTI gun blank cartridges for driving nails too.:(Tossed in good lazy builder manner under the floorboards as never to be seen again trash.

Thats what I thought myself initially..

Whats the craic with the dark band around the base?

Dummy

There haven't been any renovations carried out in the last 40 years from the look of it. Certainly not floors or ceilings.

Other items from the 1916 era & earlier were also found. In fact some dated 1916.

bazza888

hilti guns dont use 1.5inch x.5inch blanks do they?i thought they use the little strips with crimmped up shells about half the size of a 22 short??

Grizzly 45

1.5 by .5 is a 50 cal shell there Bazz.:D No, not many Hiltis use those!:).

Some of the older ones would be up in .32 cal blank alright.Thats why I thought the might be Hilti blanks as the groove would suggest a holder for a plastic/cardboard strip of them.But if the room hasnt been worked on in that time frame...

bazza888

i was wondering it would have to be driving serious nails with a blank that size!

mrbrianj

iirc the old hilti cartridges had rims. Trying to think back over 30 years ago, so I could be wrong!

V Bull

Hi D,

Try this link, the guys are great and quick to respond....

http://theirishwar.com/2011/03/weapons-of-the-ira-3-rd-west-cork-brigade/

Paul..

Dummy

V Bull wrote: »

Hi D,

Try this link, the guys are great and quick to respond....

http://theirishwar.com/2011/03/weapons-of-the-ira-3-rd-west-cork-brigade/

Paul..

That's a very interesting site Paul.

Thank you.

sfakiaman

Could be .577 Snider. http://www.oldammo.com/january07.htm They made crimped shot shells in that calibre and there was a double barrel pistol chambered for it.

tac foley

sfakiaman wrote: »

Could be .577 Snider. http://www.oldammo.com/january07.htm They made crimped shot shells in that calibre and there was a double barrel pistol chambered for it.

Hm. My snider ammunition has got HUGE rim on it. and some of my ammunition has cases over 100 years old.

These cases might have corroded away though.....1916 was a long time since.

tac

ianoo

looks like blank ammo ,was there ever a re-enactment /film made in the building about 1916???/ ,they could be movie blanks ....



ian

Belfast

could be for a "Howth Mauser". The Mauser Model 1871 adopted as the Gewehr 71 or Infanterie-Gewehr 71 was used by the Irish rebels.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauser_Model_1871

they used "Black powder" 11 x 60 mm R

"Rebels had a wide mix of weapons

The rebels used a mix of weapons, some more effective than others. These included German Mauser rifles and pistols which had been landed at Howth, Co Dublin, and Kilcoole, Co Wicklow, in 1914, British and Italian rifles, single and double-barrelled shotguns and a small number of revolvers.

The German guns were especially antiquated and dangerous. Many rebels had never held or fired one before. Some describe being knocked across the room or even knocked unconscious by the recoil. These rifles also caused terrible injuries to their targets, which has been cited as one of the reasons why the rebels were so unpopular in the immediate aftermath.

Hand-made grenades were fashioned but proved to be unreliable, with many of them failing to explode."
http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/easterrising/sunday/article8b.htm

Belfast

sfakiaman wrote: »

Could be .577 Snider. http://www.oldammo.com/january07.htm They made crimped shot shells in that calibre and there was a double barrel pistol chambered for it.

Snider-Enfield was used by the Royal Irish Constabulary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snider-Enfield


(From Left to Right): A .577 Snider cartridge, a Zulu War-era rolled brass foil .577/450 Martini-Henry Cartridge, a later drawn brass .577/450 Martini-Henry cartridge, and a .303 British Mk VII SAA Ball cartridge

Dummy

ianoo wrote: »

looks like blank ammo ,was there ever a re-enactment /film made in the building about 1916???/ ,they could be movie blanks ....



ian

Ian - None that we know of or have seen.

Dummy

Is Snider still in operation, does anyone know?

I might contact them directly to see if they could identify this shell.


D.

Belfast

Snider-Enfield
Use today
Enthusiasts still use these rifles today, with the number in circulation boosted by the acquisition by Atlanta Cutlery and International Military Antiques of a vast quantity of antique weapons held in the Royal Nepalese Armory in the Lagan Silekhana Palace for over a century. Ammunition is reloaded into either modern production .577 Snider cases, or reformed 24 gauge brass shotgun shells. Black powder or modern black powder substitutes are used.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snider-Enfield

A picture of the end of the round would help.

"Most of us have picked up examples of the .577 Snider shot cartridge. These typically consist of a standard cartridge case loaded with a shot-filled paper bullet; most of the ones I encountered were made by the Dominion Cartridge Company. This picture shows the variations of .577 Snider shot cartridges that I currently have in my collection. The first one has a paper wrapped shot load stuffed in the case mouth, and the case is composed of a paper covered coiled brass case with a paper lined cup, and a separate iron head that is held in place by the boxer primer. I believe this to be a Mark II load, which should be loaded with thirteen.275" lead balls. The second has a drawn brass case, but also has the separate head with the boxer primer. On this one, the case mouth is crimped over the shot load and top wad, which is marked with a '4', for the size of the shot, and with 'The Colonial Ammunition Company' around the perimeter. This company had its factories in New Zealand. The last two cartridges were made by the Dominion Cartridge Company in Montreal, Canada, and are loaded with shot-filled paper bullets, these two being white and red. The color of the paper bullet might indicate the size of the shot, but this is only a guess.".
http://www.oldammo.com/january07.htm

http://www.atlantacutlery.com/c-88-antique-militaria.aspx

http://knives.atlantacutlery.com/search?SearchTerm=.577&x=0&y=0

sfakiaman

tac foley wrote: »

Hm. My snider ammunition has got HUGE rim on it. and some of my ammunition has cases over 100 years old.

These cases might have corroded away though.....1916 was a long time since.

tac

The cases the OP is refering to could had an attached head which corroded away, I've seen that on old shotgun cartridges.

ATTACHED HEAD - Relatively early centerfire cartridges which were designed to have the head of the cartridge attached to the body by riveting or other means. Rounds of this design can be attributed to the late 1860s and several decades beyond. A typical example is the .577 Snider.

Dummy

I will take an image of the bottom of the shell when I get home this evening.

The bottom is well corroded but you may see something that I have not.


Many thanks everyone.


D.

tac foley

Dummy wrote: »

Is Snider still in operation, does anyone know?

I might contact them directly to see if they could identify this shell.


D.

Sadly, to do that you'd need a card table and ouija board. Mr Snider died in 1866.

He designed the cheap and rapid conversion system of the P53 rifled musket, not the cartridge.

tac
vcrai.com

tac foley

sfakiaman wrote: »

The cases the OP is refering to could had an attached head which corroded away, I've seen that on old shotgun cartridges.

ATTACHED HEAD - Relatively early centerfire cartridges which were designed to have the head of the cartridge attached to the body by riveting or other means. Rounds of this design can be attributed to the late 1860s and several decades beyond. A typical example is the .577 Snider.

'A typical example is the EARLY version of the .577 Snider'.

tac

bazza888

just spotted this on another site,some pics of a snider enfield
http://www.milsurps.com/showthread.php?t=36248

Dummy

Hi there,

As promised, I have taken some more images of the shell which hopefully will be of some help.

You can see that I have done some cleaning of the shell using baking powder. The bottom, which I imagine is the most important end, is being a bit stubborn and will not clean.

There is a crease running down one side of the shell from top to bottom.
Also, there is a Bell-shaped mark on the side.


Bottom.jpg - The Bottom of the Shell
Bottom2.jpg - The bottom again
Crease.jpg - Notice the crease running top to bottom
Mark.jpg - Notice the bell shaped mark
Side.jpg - Side again

Dummy

And this is the top of the shell.

Top.jpg - Top of Shell

Dummy

We do think that there may be letters on the bottom of the shell that are not obvious in the images.

We cannot get any more of the corrosion of the bottom without damaging it.

Dummy

Belfast wrote: »

Snider-Enfield
Use today
Enthusiasts still use these rifles today, with the number in circulation boosted by the acquisition by Atlanta Cutlery and International Military Antiques of a vast quantity of antique weapons held in the Royal Nepalese Armory in the Lagan Silekhana Palace for over a century. Ammunition is reloaded into either modern production .577 Snider cases, or reformed 24 gauge brass shotgun shells. Black powder or modern black powder substitutes are used.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snider-Enfield

A picture of the end of the round would help.

http://www.atlantacutlery.com/c-88-antique-militaria.aspx

http://knives.atlantacutlery.com/search?SearchTerm=.577&x=0&y=0

Belfast,

The second shell from the left in your line up of those four shells looks very similar to the one we have.

Dummy

I had a look through the other shells that were found and they are all equally corroded at the bottom and impossible to read an numbers or letters if there are any.

Belfast

The Snider .577 ammo might have been hand made by a gun smith.
the cartridge may not have had any writing on the end.
later cartridges were all machine made and would all have had markings on the end.