Swimming and Biking to aid Runners

donothoponpop

May as well take the discussion out of my log and offer it for general consumption- I've been running marathon milage for five years now, and suffering from stress injuries. In particular, despite running mainly on trail and grass, my knees are sore, click a lot, and hurt bad after running. In addition, my times haven't improved much from a few years back, when I was running max 60k a week, and swimming a bit.

So I want to bring down my 5k, 10k, 42k, times, and started swimming (and a bit of biking) on recovery days. The benefits have been immediate, and huge. Breathing has become easier, knee feels much better, tempo running days I've felt fresh, fast, and strong. More importantly, I'm really enjoying the training now, where before a recovery run on a dark wet evening could be a drag.

This multisporting in training is nothing new to Tri-heads, buts its a bit of a revelation to runners weaned primarily on "more miles and you get faster". Are there many here who multisport in training, primarily to benefit run races, and what sort of tips or schedules do you have?

sconhome

Asa a tri head I would suggest that multi sports forces you to be ingenious about balancing all the training for the disciplines. So rather than piling on loads and loads of distance in the sports you have to focus on quality sessions where form etc is intergral.

You only have to read the recent thread re tri swimming. Cut the distance to manageable chunks to favour form rather than out and out long distance swimming.

It also 'forces' you to appreciate the value of proper recovery between sessions. You can't do back to back days of running cos where do you fit in the multiple swim or bike / turbo sessions you need to fit into the week.

It would be normal to see a tempo, interval and LSR as the main backbone of tri training (up to olympic distance) so you are focused on hammering at your 5 & 10k times, they can only improve as you are no longer just marathon training.

I'm always open to correction and other opinions too!

And welcome to Triathlon!!

tunney

donothoponpop wrote: »

May as well take the discussion out of my log and offer it for general consumption- I've been running marathon milage for five years now, and suffering from stress injuries. In particular, despite running mainly on trail and grass, my knees are sore, click a lot, and hurt bad after running. In addition, my times haven't improved much from a few years back, when I was running max 60k a week, and swimming a bit.

So I want to bring down my 5k, 10k, 42k, times, and started swimming (and a bit of biking) on recovery days. The benefits have been immediate, and huge. Breathing has become easier, knee feels much better, tempo running days I've felt fresh, fast, and strong. More importantly, I'm really enjoying the training now, where before a recovery run on a dark wet evening could be a drag.

This multisporting in training is nothing new to Tri-heads, buts its a bit of a revelation to runners weaned primarily on "more miles and you get faster". Are there many here who multisport in training, primarily to benefit run races, and what sort of tips or schedules do you have?

I view myself more as a runner who likes to bike and swim too. The variety keeps you interested and it doesn't matter where the fitness comes from as long as it comes from somewhere. A long 5-6 hour bike will do wonders for fuel economy that you just cannot get from a long run (6 hours running would impact a huge toll on the body). I'm not sure though if aiming for huge bike improvements would work well with trying to get running times well down though. I know my rec fems never appreciated big bike work when combined with decent amounts of running volume and intensity.

amphkingwest wrote: »

Asa a tri head I would suggest that multi sports forces you to be ingenious about balancing all the training for the disciplines. So rather than piling on loads and loads of distance in the sports you have to focus on quality sessions where form etc is intergral.

You only have to read the recent thread re tri swimming. Cut the distance to manageable chunks to favour form rather than out and out long distance swimming.

It also 'forces' you to appreciate the value of proper recovery between sessions. You can't do back to back days of running cos where do you fit in the multiple swim or bike / turbo sessions you need to fit into the week.

It would be normal to see a tempo, interval and LSR as the main backbone of tri training (up to olympic distance) so you are focused on hammering at your 5 & 10k times, they can only improve as you are no longer just marathon training.

I'm always open to correction and other opinions too!

And welcome to Triathlon!!

I don't see any reason why a triathlete cannot run 7+ times a week and get in quality bikes and swims too.

KentuckyPete

donothoponpop wrote: »

May as well take the discussion out of my log and offer it for general consumption- I've been running marathon milage for five years now, and suffering from stress injuries. In particular, despite running mainly on trail and grass, my knees are sore, click a lot, and hurt bad after running. In addition, my times haven't improved much from a few years back, when I was running max 60k a week, and swimming a bit.

So I want to bring down my 5k, 10k, 42k, times, and started swimming (and a bit of biking) on recovery days. The benefits have been immediate, and huge. Breathing has become easier, knee feels much better, tempo running days I've felt fresh, fast, and strong. More importantly, I'm really enjoying the training now, where before a recovery run on a dark wet evening could be a drag.

This multisporting in training is nothing new to Tri-heads, buts its a bit of a revelation to runners weaned primarily on "more miles and you get faster". Are there many here who multisport in training, primarily to benefit run races, and what sort of tips or schedules do you have?

For sure d'pop, agree 100%.

Over the last few years I've run a marathon schedule in winter and then switched to tri in April once the spring marathon was run. I have three small kids and do a lot of international travelling for work so it's very tight to get the training in - no more than five or six sessions per week. It's tough to progress to a significantly better marathon on that many sessions so they really have to count. As a result you find yourself pushing a bit too hard too often and when every session was running that led to problems.

At the end of tri season last year while switching back to running to prepare for DCM I made some changes:

1. Eliminated the Monday recovery run completely and replaced it with a 2km easy pool session
2. Made sure to get in at least 40 miles per week on the bike - usually all in "easy" high cadence mode - this could be done while commuting
3. Accepted that this would reduce my overall weekly running miles
4. Put more mental focus into the running sessions when I was doing them - planning in advance what pace to run and why, making sure every running session was for a definite purpose etc.
5. Planned 6 physio sessions over the 12-week lead-in to DCM - "whether I needed them or not", using the sessions as maintenance/prevention/ recovery rather than cure

It made a big difference - I was able to go the whole DCM program without injury and scored (for me) a significant PB on the day. I was also definitely more relaxed (physically and mentally) about training and racing.

I'm not saying it's all down to points 1 to 5 above but it definitely feels like they helped. I'm trying a similar approach in the prep for Boston in April so we'll see how it goes. I'm not sure the 2K easy swim is doing much for my swimming (see the "Swimming for Tri" thread :rolleyes: )but it definitely feels like it's better for me than the recovery run

sconhome

tunney wrote: »

I don't see any reason why a triathlete cannot run 7+ times a week and get in quality bikes and swims too.

Couple of kids, shop to run and a competitive triathlete wife means all available training time is halved between the two of us.:)

HalfTri

tunney wrote: »

I don't see any reason why a triathlete cannot run 7+ times a week and get in quality bikes and swims too.

Are you serious? Maybe if your a pro but for an AG to train like that would be beyond reason and lead to serious burnout / injury. There is a point to running on tired legs but not a point on running your legs to the ground. That will not bring on speed.

BTH

HalfTri wrote: »

Are you serious? Maybe if your a pro but for an AG to train like that would be beyond reason and lead to serious burnout / injury. There is a point to running on tired legs but not a point on running your legs to the ground. That will not bring on speed.

It depends on what those 7 runs a week are. It's quite likely that 3/4 of them will be recovery/easy runs, 30min or so, which really shouldnt take anything out of a semi serious triathlete. You only have to look at the training logs on here to see many people doing 5+ runs a week.

tunney

HalfTri wrote: »

Are you serious? Maybe if your a pro but for an AG to train like that would be beyond reason and lead to serious burnout / injury. There is a point to running on tired legs but not a point on running your legs to the ground. That will not bring on speed.

Really? Wish I knew this before.

hot to trot

Do you think an exercise bike would be of any benefit or do you believe it would have to be out on the road?

IF so , what kind of times , efforts, distances would you recommend for a beginner?

shotgunmcos

Last year I did 3:00 for the Conn Marathon off the back of my winter 'bike' focused training. I generally run 25-30 miles per week and this has been my yearly average for the last 2 years. I rarely do speedwork (which is why I'm slow). I did do a block of 6 weeks running 40-50 miles per week over the winter and that definitely asssisted that Conn result. However on the day I just felt like I had a bigger engine (aerobic base) onboard than for any of my previous marathons. This engine was gained from the biking and swimming.

In 2007 I ran my first marathon at the DCM in 3:33 dying on my feet.
In 2008 I ran the DCM in 3:27 finishing the last mile strong and enjoying it.

My approach was the very same on both years, a diet of 20-25 miles runnng a week and all done at 8 min mile pace (I was clueless). The only difference in training was learning to swim and spinning classes (didn't get a bike until winter 2008) duing the summer before the 08 DCM.

RE: running 7 days a week. My best streak over the years is 56 days straight and most of the runs in that streak would have been 20-30 min junk 'streak' focused runs. I found through it that my injury red zone alert was 90+ km per week. If I were to do 7 runs a week I'd rather double up a day and take at least one day off running.

tunney

shotgunmcos wrote: »

RE: running 7 days a week. My best streak over the years is 56 days straight and most of the runs in that streak would have been 20-30 min junk 'streak' focused runs. I found through it that my injury red zone alert was 90+ km per week. If I were to do 7 runs a week I'd rather double up a day and take at least one day off running.

Ten weeks of at least one 10km run a day. Took the Monday of week 4 and 8 off. Peaked at 60km in one day and 160km a week. Ran like the wind. Biked well. Swam like a brick.

Know lads still doing similar. Kids rock. (no seriously they do, I just get jealous from time to time of those who can still do it).

HalfTri

tunney wrote: »

Ten weeks of at least one 10km run a day. Took the Monday of week 4 and 8 off. Peaked at 60km in one day and 160km a week. Ran like the wind. Biked well. Swam like a brick.

Well - I don't think you need to run that often to be a serious runner in tri. Running is too taxing on the body. Biking every day can be done but running leaves you open too much to injury. What speed were you running the 60km in one day at? What was the point in it?

tunney

Rather busy in work today so going to go with this as my stock response for the day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KTEgLKhjIw

HalfTri

tunney wrote: »

Rather busy in work today so going to go with this as my stock response for the day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KTEgLKhjIw

:eek: you calling me a sh*t triathlete!!! I still disagree with you but everyone to their own. And 3 - 4 quality run sessions a week can match 7+ sessions - fact.

tunney

HalfTri wrote: »

:eek: you calling me a sh*t triathlete!!! I still disagree with you but everyone to their own. And 3 - 4 quality run sessions a week can match 7+ sessions - fact.

Just thought the video was funny as close to the truth.

Depends on the goals and events. For some 3-4 cannot match 7+.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

HalfTri wrote: »

Are you serious? Maybe if your a pro but for an AG to train like that would be beyond reason and lead to serious burnout / injury. There is a point to running on tired legs but not a point on running your legs to the ground. That will not bring on speed.

Not necessarily so i would run probably 5/6 times a week and will probably increase this to 7+ albeit i have a marathon 15weeks out from an IM. Breakdown is usually 3 key sessions being tempo/intervals/long run with pacey efforts and the rest made up of easy/recovery runs.
As long as you structure the sessions properly with other runs and bikes there should not be an issue. Recovery is also important. The above approach has my easy running pace around 20-30secs per km quicker than last year so it works for me.

nerraw1111

Is it the case that if you’re cycling you can drop the recovery run?

As I said in an earlier post, the cycling definitely helps with hill running. I’ve a noticed a huge leap in performance after upping the cycling miles modestly. Swimming seems to have helped my breathing on runs too. My runs tend to be tempo, intervals and a long run.

Ironically, I’ve noticed little improvement in my actual cycling and swimming. :pac: Still trying to juggle the various sessions.

hot to trot

hot to trot wrote: »

Do you think an exercise bike would be of any benefit or do you believe it would have to be out on the road?

IF so , what kind of times , efforts, distances would you recommend for a beginner?

Er I know I am not a triathlete( yet anyway) and you guys are big into it, But I would still like an answer or is this thread only for elites?:rolleyes:
Would I be wasting my time as I couldnt afford a road bike for a while.

donothoponpop

hot to trot wrote: »

Er I know I am not a triathlete( yet anyway) and you guys are big into it, But I would still like an answer or is this thread only for elites?:rolleyes:
Would I be wasting my time as I couldnt afford a road bike for a while.

What would you be using the exercise bike for? Supplementing running with a non-impact workout? If that's the case, you can get hard workouts from the exercise bike if you want. It might enforce bad habits like incorrect posture if you looking to train for a bike race, but gym machines can have their use for non-impact training. However if you were thinking about Tri down the line, maybe a turbo trainer or bike rollers would be better?

I'm thinking of getting an exercise bike too, so if anyone has better/contradictory advice, I'm all ears).

RacoonQueen

hot to trot wrote: »

Er I know I am not a triathlete( yet anyway) and you guys are big into it, But I would still like an answer or is this thread only for elites?:rolleyes:
Would I be wasting my time as I couldnt afford a road bike for a while.

For you on the comeback trail I don't see what harm it would do. It's aerobic exercise. As for effort, high effort - no slacking.

I think the ratio is usually put at 4:1 cycling to running when you're comparing it distance wise.

Unless you have some sneaky tri plans, I assume you already have an exercise bike, if not, you can get entry level road bikes that are cheap compared to the sort of bike the majority on here would have.

hot to trot

Thanks RQ.
Given that the thread was about bike/swim enhancing your running I hoped that it might get me back in action more quickly and not just aerobically.
I did run/walk again this morning but am gagging to go out again. I just feel I am going off the rails having to wait until Saturday for another jog!.

I have an exercise bike and as I am not that familiar with bike workouts I was looking for guidance. Am recovering from partial rupture of achilles 7 months ago. Cant see cycling becoming my second sport for a long long time.

RacoonQueen

It doesn't give you the same sort of options that the road bike and turbo sessions would but sure it'll get the muscles into action and rebuild strength as well as kicking the cardiovascular system in and help for recovry sessions after the runs you do.

I don't see why you couldn't use the turbo training sessions as well. I assume it measures speed, distance, cadence, hr etc?

hot to trot

Where would you find information on turbo sessions?

sconhome

The power of Google.

Tons of training plans there.

Shell to Run

Interesting discussion. Agree with BtH. Reminds me of when I did the Chi-running course with Catriona Mc Kiernan four years ago. At the time I was a complete newbie and was eagerly looking for any short cut that would get me to the finishing line faster. So I naively asked Catriona had she any solution to my dilemma. She smiled and said that there was only one solution for running and that was running.
Since then I have discovered being a good runner means running...........however being a good triathlete requires a total different approach as it’s obviously about balancing three sports not one.
I dedicated one year to running only and improved/achieved alot. The last two years have been tri only. This involved reducing running from 6/7 days per week to 3/4. My running has not improved but it has not dis-improved too significantly. I would say in 10km I am 2mins off PB of when I was running only. I know other factors may contribute to this but the conclusion from my experience – if I want to improve running then I need to drop cycling.

donothoponpop

Shell to Run wrote: »

She smiled and said that there was only one solution for running and that was running.

That's a strange sort of comment to make, more like a slogan than wisdom. I've seen CMcK doing pool workouts years ago in Cavan, when she was injured, and I'm convinced of the benefits of non-impact swimming for runners in general (cardio and conditioning specifically). While I accept that the best runners in the world just run, I know loads of top hillrunners who do an awful lot of hill biking, in order to minimize downhill running impact stress, and I imagine this works on the flat too.

Accept your point about the running suffering when you train for Tri, though.

Donelson

Not a triathlete, but I do swim and cycle etc, and I've asked myself the exact same question as the op. The only benefit I see from cross training is that your not running, so it gives you more time to recover. there maybe some opportunity to train for cardiac fitness and fat loss, and mental I find I'm much sharper on running days.

Just my 2 cents (from a newbie)