Training pace for reps and intervals

--amadeus--

I know that one of the keys of training and progression is to train to your fitness level not your goal pace. However without pushing a little you will never know what your fitness level is (assuming no races planned). So is it better to push harder in early reps that you have geared off goal pace with the risk you might fade or should you base it off current fitness, maybe run slower than you could but be consistent?

huskerdu

I have been thinking about a similar question in the past few weeks.

I am focusing on a 5K race in 4 weeks time. My PB, set last March is 23.38.
I did't do any intervals/tempo runs / very long runs in Nov/Dec.

According to McMillan, My 400m interval time should be 1.41 to 1.46

The first time I tried some intervals 2 weeks ago, 5 intervals at that pace nearly killed me. Last Autumn, I could do 10 at this pace.

A weeks later I managed 7 intervals at 1.48 - 1.50 and it was much easier.

Next interval session is in a few days. Should I try for 1.44 and see how many I can do, or stick to 1.48/1.50 and do 10 ?

YFlyer

huskerdu wrote: »

According to McMillan, My 400m interval time should be 1.41 to 1.46

The first time I tried some intervals 2 weeks ago, 5 intervals at that pace nearly killed me. Last Autumn, I could do 10 at this pace.

A weeks later I managed 7 intervals at 1.48 - 1.50 and it was much easier.

Next interval session is in a few days. Should I try for 1.44 and see how many I can do, or stick to 1.48/1.50 and do 10 ?

If it takes too much out of you, increase the recovery time or split the sets.

dna_leri

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I know that one of the keys of training and progression is to train to your fitness level not your goal pace. However without pushing a little you will never know what your fitness level is (assuming no races planned). So is it better to push harder in early reps that you have geared off goal pace with the risk you might fade or should you base it off current fitness, maybe run slower than you could but be consistent?

You know the answer is train to your current fitness level, especially of your focus is longer distances and you want to avoid injury. You can always reduce the recovery time or increase the total volume.

KentuckyPete

YFlyer wrote: »

If it takes too much out of you, increase the recovery time or split the sets.

Agree with this. In my fairly limited experience, intervals (and hill sprints) really bring you on. Realistically they are short and you are going hard so you don't want to be wondering in the middle of a burst whether you're doing a particular pace or not.

So, go as hard as you can. In the early stages of the road to fitness decsribed by Amadeus above, lengthen the recovery intervals or reduce the reps or space out the sessions over a longer period of time. Then tighten these up as you get on top of things.

Age is a factor too. Generally the older you are the slower you are to recover. I did this session a few weeks ago and it took me nearly a week to recover. My point being that this is not exclusively a comment on the state of my fitness - it's just as much because I'm turning 48 in May!

dna_leri

huskerdu wrote: »

I have been thinking about a similar question in the past few weeks.

I am focusing on a 5K race in 4 weeks time. My PB, set last March is 23.38.
I did't do any intervals/tempo runs / very long runs in Nov/Dec.

According to McMillan, My 400m interval time should be 1.41 to 1.46

The first time I tried some intervals 2 weeks ago, 5 intervals at that pace nearly killed me. Last Autumn, I could do 10 at this pace.

A weeks later I managed 7 intervals at 1.48 - 1.50 and it was much easier.

Next interval session is in a few days. Should I try for 1.44 and see how many I can do, or stick to 1.48/1.50 and do 10 ?

I think if you are training for a 5K, getting the pace right is important but you are basing your interval time on a PB set last March. McMillan would say you should be training based on a recent performance, so you are probably not in that shape yet.

With 4 weeks to go to your race, I would recommend that you do 10-14 reps at a pace that you can maintain for the full set with roughly equal recoveries. I would suggest start at 1:53 which is your 5K "target" pace which also gets your body used to running at that speed again. If you feel strong after 10 at that speed, up the pace for the last few.

Peckham

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I know that one of the keys of training and progression is to train to your fitness level not your goal pace. However without pushing a little you will never know what your fitness level is (assuming no races planned). So is it better to push harder in early reps that you have geared off goal pace with the risk you might fade or should you base it off current fitness, maybe run slower than you could but be consistent?

No, it's better to run slower and consistent and then to test yourself in regular races/time trials (adjusting the training paces if race times get better).

.........but sticking to this rule is impossible for many of us!

I tend to train faster than current fitness level, but would always do it at a pace that is consistent across the reps. If I see a fade in the later reps, I'd drop the pace back next time. Ideally I want my final rep to be the fastest one, but only slightly faster and being in tune with the rest of the session (i.e. not having to go eyeballs out on the final rep and it feeling like a substantial strain).

tunguska

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I know that one of the keys of training and progression is to train to your fitness level not your goal pace. However without pushing a little you will never know what your fitness level is (assuming no races planned). So is it better to push harder in early reps that you have geared off goal pace with the risk you might fade or should you base it off current fitness, maybe run slower than you could but be consistent?

Last year I read an interview with Salazar where he talked about this very subject. He reckoned for faster gains it was best to train at paces you normally couldnt handle for very long, the trick was to reduce the distance. This appealed to me straight away and for the marathon program I followed last year I trained with a guy who was faster than me. What I did was I'd run at his pace but over shorter distances, at least at the start anyway. By the end of the program I was able to stay with him for entire sessions. I made massive progress in a short space of time, so for me this is the way to go. At Raheny last weekend my goal was to run at 5:15 pace for 3 or 4 miles. I know if I had gone out at a pace I was more accustomed to I wouldnt have struggled(died) so much in the last mile. But the goal for me in that race was to get my body used to running at a pace that was very uncomfotable for me, for as long as possible, if I died in the last mile so be it. Because I know the more I run at that pace the more my body will adapt. The downsides of this type of training is its very tough, physically and mentally. Risk of injury goes up aswell, so you gotta weigh up the pros and cons and decide for yourself if you're willing to take the risks.

--amadeus--

Cheers all

Todays session was binned anyway on orders of MrsA (I have a cold & she pointed out I could run with it and make it last longer or take a day of and get over it. I hate it when she's sensible and right) but I'll be doing another one later in the week so plenty to chew over...

In my own case the difference between target and current fitness pace for 10k is only 15 secs a mile but I think I might try and mix the suggestions - on the 400m reps try and push to the upper end but on the continuous running at +/- PMP pace I might be more conservative as it's over a longer distance.

narwog81

What is a consistent range? I'm training for a half marathon using Hal higdon's intermediate plan, did this session yesterday:

6x400 interval session

400/400 total distance 8km - 41.30

Rep 1 - 1.16
Rep 2 - 1.14
Rep 3 - 1.15
Rep 4 - 1.18
Rep 5 - 1.18
Rep 6 - 1.17

Max HR - 180

Was aiming for 1.15, Is this time range acceptable or should I drop it back? Especially as the reps increase?

ecoli

You need to look at what you are aiming to get from a session as both aims are acceptable.

Some sessions are working on rhythm in the aim to become more efficient at running at that pace and getting your body accustom so that you expend the least amount of energy possible. So for example a session such as 20x400 @ 10k pace (the session in particular you are refering to) aims to do this. You also take into account the recovery (in this case 45 sec) which is designed to give you an incomplete recovery.

With an incomplete recovery it means that as the session progresses you are getting a cumulative fatigue build up so that you are able to work on maintaining the pace even when the body becomes tired (similar to the effects of a race). Also this means that each rep has a compound effect on the next rep. In these types of sessions it is important to keep the recovery the same and normally aiming to keep the reps themselves at a fairly constant level.

You should feel quite comfortable in the early part of these sessions but the last few should be tough enough that you have to work fairly in order to complete the rep in the same times that you had earlier in the session. These should not be hero sessions which leave you passed out on the track though and you should always feel that you are able to carry out another rep if was needed



There are times in which full recovery is required. Normally these would be quicker sessions or longer intervals making the intensity higher. The idea of these sessions usually is to get the stimulus you are looking for from the rep moreso than the recovery and the overall session. What I mean by this is that these would be sessions when you are focusing on goal race pace or Vo2 max type sessions when the intensity/ pace must be at a particular level in order to get the benefits needed from the reps.

An example of this is say an 800m runner trying to run goal paced 200m reps (30 sec) we need to allow enough recovery between the reps to allow the body to recover fully so that it does not enter a deeply exhausted state where the recovery would hinder training later in the week. The aim of training is to try and simulate racing without exhausting the body to the point when you are racing your workouts.

When I say full recovery in this incidence I mean to the point when they are not working too hard. Obviously there will be a cumulative effect to a point (build up of lactate for example) which can make blowing up in these types of sessions a bit more acceptable (as much as blowing up becomes acceptable) Because these types of sessions are working on a rep by rep basis as opposed to the cumulative effect these are ones where pulling up a rep early or being way off the pace and calling it a day dont have adverse effects on the overall session but rather the individual rep.


If you look to the training as an overall and how the session and the paces match up to your target event then you will be able to get a better understanding on what type of session it is. In terms of the session that was for you today it was more a case of the shorter end of the scale for marathon training yet was still looking for a cumulative effect to work on efficiency at quicker paces