protecting water from freezing in 1000L IBC tanks

CamperMan

protecting water from freezing in 1000L IBC tanks

I can't really afford to be having an electric heater on 1000 watts just to get the garage up to about 5 to 7 deg C to protect the water in the IBC tanks from freezing.. I also have to think of the water in the pipes and the pumps..

Would an Aquarium Heater be OK to stop the water from freezing up in each IBC tank?

also, for the pipes I was thinking of using Pipe Heat Tape to prevent the pipes from freezing up..

any suggestions?

baords dyslexic

I don't think freezing will damage the tank - its plastic and should take it OK our 220l drums suffer no harm when frozen. So obviously you could disconect the pipe work and drain it down but I don't think thats what you want to hear

I'd firstly think about insulating the tanks and pipes and then apply what heat I had near where the pipe work was connected near the bottom of the tanks. All you want is the water to flow if the water at the top of the tank is frozen then does it matter if its flowing at the bottom. One of the electically heated tapes around the outflow pipe and junction might be all you need plus a frost stat to switch it on and off.

Another plan might be to put an insulated box around the tanks and just heat inside the box - fan heater or heat lamp?

Heat lamps on a frost stat is a standard farming solution and Glambia etc sell the lamps and frost stats pre wired to a 13 amp plug.

And if you use the heat tape don't forget to put thick insulation over the top of it.

Grizzly 45

Super insulate the tanks as best as possible,no real need to go to heaters etc as these tanks are inside?Get a load of styofoam,bubble wrap,straw,newspapers,anything that keeps heat in and pack it around the tank by any means.Even build a outside container around the IBC to contain the insulating materials.You only need it to stay a degree or two above freezing.
Ask around or your neighbouring farmers in Germany..Bet they have some nifty ideas and set ups as it can get damn cold over there with the winters.I've even seen mud wrapped around with bandage like material used on hot water pipes as insulation in our cellar in Germany.Hot water dried out the mud and made it like brick.
Ice can certainly bust up a plastic tank ,but it would have to be really extreme to freeze that amount into a solid block.By rights you will find a thick layer of ice on the top of the tank and flowing water under the ice sheet,as in nature in lakes or rivers.So if your out flow is at the base it should still free flow into the system?
Where it needs the lagging is any outside exposed pipes obviously.The best option is bury them and over there ,thats at least three feet down if not more.:eek:

Tabnabs

The alternative to insulating is circulation. An agitation motor of some sort would solve the problem.

krissovo

I have a 1100 ltr (oil) water tank which is outside on the North side of the house. It supply's most of my home water requirements which are not fed by the water mains.

It survived last years 10 days or so of -10 to -16 without freezing and with minimal preparation. I hate to throw money at things so these are cheap or free Now it was not totally ice free as the corners of the tank still froze a little but nothing to impede the functionality.

Firstly the tank is only filled roughly 7/8ths of capacity to give room for expansion if it does freeze, the water level is maintained by a float valve from a toilet. The tank will only split if there is no room for the ice expansion.

The only insulation I have is under the tank, its part of a pallet cut down to fit with a layer of kingspan insulation. The tank sits on top of this no problem.

I have normal pipe lagging but for the metal joints I have wrapped newspaper about half inch thick and a layer of duck tape over the top. 2nd season and still works and looks ok.

I have some corks that I have placed in the tank, its an old army trick that we used to stop our water tanks freezing in Bosnian winters (-40). These move about when the tank starts to freeze and slow down the freezing process. They vary in size from wine bottle to 6 inch wide.

My last line of defense is a old car window washer pump to circulate the water and get the corks moving about. Its submersible and the circuit is easy, timer plug to 12v converter transformer, fuze, pump. I have it set so that the top of the water is agitated when operated. I only used it once last year when I noticed the ice in the tank creeping towards the inlet valve (it was -16). It worked great preventing the freeze overnight and is way cheaper than putting a heat lamp on it. Using the timer I have it on for 10 minutes and off for 15.

Tabnabs

Love the corks tip

CamperMan

the IBC tanks are in the garage, yesterday they were fine, I put an electric heater in the garage yesterday, all day, on 500 watts, and the tanks have started to freeze!

the agitation of the water sounds like a good idea

krissovo

How about painting the tank black? It would absorb heat better and as its inside would not be too much of a issue in summer.

baords dyslexic

CamperMan wrote: »

the IBC tanks are in the garage, yesterday they were fine, I put an electric heater in the garage yesterday, all day, on 500 watts, and the tanks have started to freeze!

the agitation of the water sounds like a good idea

So just how cold is it, both inside and outside where you are?

500Watts would be better used with an Infra Red Heat Lamp, above the tanks. More of the heat would end up heating the tanks and not just the air in the garage.

CamperMan

baords dyslexic wrote: »

So just how cold is it, both inside and outside where you are?

500Watts would be better used with an Infra Red Heat Lamp, above the tanks. More of the heat would end up heating the tanks and not just the air in the garage.

at mid day today, it is -10 with a wind chill factor of -17 :eek:

last night was much colder..

Tabnabs

Just be careful, those electric heaters are thirsty things for electricity.

CamperMan

Tabnabs wrote: »

Just be careful, those electric heaters are thirsty things for electricity.

I have noticed.. the electric meter is spinning like a CD..

problem is, this old house has no other form of heating..

no wood burning stoves, nothing

Grizzly 45

Gotta get that sorted Dude!:eek:

CamperMan

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Gotta get that sorted Dude!:eek:

I know... no chimneys on this old house, the last owner removed all of them, so a new chimney will cost at least €2000

we have plenty of logs to burn but no fire to burn them in

CamperMan

OK, I have put a 100 watt infra red bulb over the water pump, wrapped all the pipes well and stuck a 12 volt caravan water pump in the main IBC tank to agitate the water, I have also wrapped the tanks with cardboard..

see if this works

kildare.17hmr

Would you not put a stove in? Chimney for that would be alot less

CamperMan

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Would you not put a stove in? Chimney for that would be alot less

that is what I am talking about having in.. a wood burning stove, the metal chimney alone will cost over €1000, then the work involved in fitting it

kildare.17hmr

CamperMan wrote: »

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Would you not put a stove in? Chimney for that would be alot less

that is what I am talking about having in.. a wood burning stove, the metal chimney alone will cost over €1000, then the work involved in fitting it

It will pay for itself in a couple of years tho so better to take the hit now than waist a load on electricity for the next year!! Good luck with it what ever you decide

kildare.17hmr

Was thinking it would be great to see the area your livin in camperman, any chance of some pics?

Gingermagic

The price you have been quoted to put in a chimney for a stove does seem to be a bit high........If the stove is at the gable end of a house or at a wall facing outside what is wrong with doing it yourself....you could essentially drill the size of hole appropriate for the pipe, make sure it is attached securely to the house so in high winds it is still safe....There is site called instructables http://www.instructables.com/ they give step by step guides for so much stuff....it also shows you how to make a woodburning stove from old gas bottles....Anyhoo hope this gives you some ideas....stay warm..:D

Grizzly 45

Trouble is he is in Germany,and they take their planning and house modification laws abit more seriously than we do.As well as that the Germans have an ultimate yes or no sayer on chiminies installation thereof,and related,even the fuel you burn.That fellow is, by our standards a very humble man, the chiminey sweep!:eek:
In Germany they can be the Gestapo reincarnated!!!As a matter of fact their power still derives from laws left over from the 3rd Reich,[as do quite a few other annoying ones ,like church tax,the impossibility of setting up private bus routes between major cities],it was for air raid precautions and such,but their power even goes to disallowing you from burning certain types of fuel if need be..Like too damp wood.. Its a learned trade with its own guild and regions set down to be coverd by one chiminey sweep,and what he says goes with no appeal to anyone.

So going and slapping up a DIY pipe chiminey is going to attract some very beuracratic Teutonic ire!:PHence the steep enough prices.

CamperMan

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Was thinking it would be great to see the area your livin in camperman, any chance of some pics?

some pics here of the old house we bought in Germany for the price of a second hand Ford Mondeo

the pics are as we bought it, overgrown garden, neglected paintwork, and interior, etc..

Doc Ruby

CamperMan wrote: »

some pics here of the old house we bought in Germany for the price of a second hand Ford Mondeo

the pics are as we bought it, overgrown garden, neglected paintwork, and interior, etc..

Oho, spotted the kelly kettle in there!

kildare.17hmr

CamperMan wrote: »

kildare.17hmr wrote: »

Was thinking it would be great to see the area your livin in camperman, any chance of some pics?

some pics here of the old house we bought in Germany for the price of a second hand Ford Mondeo

the pics are as we bought it, overgrown garden, neglected paintwork, and interior, etc..

Fair play looks good! Is it out in the countryside or close to a big town? Reminds me of the place i lived in in sweeden, ahhh memories!!

Got a few pics of what ya have done so far?

Grizzly 45

Work aplenty there Camperman!:eek::)

CamperMan

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Oho, spotted the kelly kettle in there!

that was a life saver..

the very first day we arrived here, the power wasn't on, it was sub zero, and we didn't have the keys for the house so we spent the first night in the garden house, the kelly kettle worked a treat giving us hot water and something to cook on..

Doc Ruby

CamperMan wrote: »

the very first day we arrived here, the power wasn't on, it was sub zero, and we didn't have the keys for the house so we spent the first night in the garden house, the kelly kettle worked a treat giving us hot water and something to cook on..

Jaysus not its often moving into a new house becomes a survival situation! :eek: what size is the garden on that?

CamperMan

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Jaysus not its often moving into a new house becomes a survival situation! :eek: what size is the garden on that?

Doc,

we bought the old house from auction.... we had never even been to Germany before and we bought the place from seeing photos.. we were given the keys but none were for the main house, the keys we got were for the sheds and garden house, the other keys followed 4 weeks after we arrived (I had to break in.. wasn't going to live in the garden house for a month freezing with no electric.).. it was February 2011 when we arrived, it's February 2012 and today outside it's -10 .. February last year was probably worse..

Still, it was an experience, an adventure

The garden is half an acre and is packed with fruit trees, there and plum trees, apple trees, cherry trees and a pair tree, + gooseberry bushes & strawberries .. there is probably a walnut tree somewhere around, we are always finding walnut shells..

kildare.17hmr

Sounds class and a very brave move fair Play to you!

CamperMan

kildare.17hmr


money is tight, business is very slow in Ireland, I had a choice, carry on living in Ireland and renting, total cost to exist in Ireland about €24,000 a year with food, rent, bills, etc.. €24,000 is alot of euros to find each year...

or buy a house in Germany outright for less than 1 years rent in Ireland (€100 per week)..

Our total living expenses here in Germany are under €8,000 a year.. so, we can live in Germany for 3 years for what it costs us to live in Ireland for 1 year..

It's about Survivalism, we could not survive on our income in Ireland...

Here in Germany, we can! (just about!)

Grizzly 45

My Mum is currently over in our home in Sthn Germany..Last night it dropped to MINUS 18!!! around Nurenberg.We are a half hour from there.:eek:
Fair dues to Camperman totake a move like that..
BTW how are you managing with the lingo??:)

Gingermagic

I applaud you Camperman that was indeed a brave move to make.....amazing how Ireland and Germany have the same currency and yet it is cheaper to live in Germany.....must have sounder infrastructure.
Pity about all of the red tape though in regards to wood burner....Your place sounds amazing:D

CamperMan

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

My Mum is currently over in our home in Sthn Germany..Last night it dropped to MINUS 18!!! around Nurenberg.We are a half hour from there.:eek:
Fair dues to Camperman totake a move like that..
BTW how are you managing with the lingo??

slowly!


still.. I get by, mostly sign language and drawings

bonniebede

CamperMan wrote: »

slowly!


still.. I get by, mostly sign language and drawings

I think you have done an amazing and forward thinking thing. Hope it goes very well for you indeed. Hope you are out of debt. I think this way of taking out a mortgage that dictates your life for ever is a big mistake, and you are blazing a trail and showing what can be done with effort and determination.

Amazing!.

CamperMan

bonniebede wrote: »

I think you have done an amazing and forward thinking thing. Hope it goes very well for you indeed. Hope you are out of debt. I think this way of taking out a mortgage that dictates your life for ever is a big mistake, and you are blazing a trail and showing what can be done with effort and determination.

Amazing!.

Hi,

I have never bothered with credit, I buy what I can afford and if I can't afford it I do without, having debt grinds you down and then your a slave to the banks....

I just want a simple, stress free life..

Grizzly 45

CamperMan wrote: »

slowly!


still.. I get by, mostly sign language and drawings

Recommend a great book The quick and dirty guide to learning langauges fast by AG Hawke [Same guy who designed the TOPS Hawkes Hellion knife] Paladin Press,or google it ,Im sure its out there for free.
I've used it and I can manage now passable French,Spanish and am too lazy now to brush up,but need to my Italian for this year.
Nothing overly complex about it or much studying needed and well worth trying.