Why do I need a PPS number/welfare?

TroikaBox

Seems like just another way the Government can interfere in the inalienable rights of each and every citizen:mad: Is it possible to even opt out of the social welfare system? I highly doubt I will see a return on investment. Where is the choice?

FreudianSlippers

TroikaBox wrote: »

Seems like just another way the Government can interfere in the inalienable rights of each and every citizen:mad: Is it possible to even opt out of the social welfare system? I highly doubt I will see a return on investment. Where is the choice?

What "inalienable rights" are these now?

TroikaBox

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

What "inalienable rights" are these now?

By definition, any rights that aren't legislated into existence. Life, Liberty, and private property being the most notable ones.

FreudianSlippers

TroikaBox wrote: »

By definition, any rights that aren't legislated into existence. Life, Liberty, and private property being the most notable ones.

I don't think you understand; they're all subject to removal. Another quality thread.

AlekSmart

TroikaBox wrote: »

By definition, any rights that aren't legislated into existence. Life, Liberty, and private property being the most notable ones.

Interesting concept here I suspect....shades of "Location,Location,Location" or Duncan Stewartism perhaps...?

And I'd equally argue that "Liberty" is of itself a fairly recent occurence within humanity itself and has most definitely been the product of leglislation.

That does leave Life itself,whose inclusion is unargueable in the list of one.

TroikaBox

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I don't think you understand; they're all subject to removal. Another quality thread.

Subject to removal only by unsolicited and illegal coercion. This is an important distinction.

longhalloween

AlekSmart wrote: »

That does leave Life itself,whose inclusion is unargueable in the list of one.

Many, many people throughout history would strongly disagree with that one. Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Hitler are just a few from the last 100 years.

To the OP, the reason you have a PPS number is so the government can keep track of the tax you pay/ benefits you're entitled to.

Which leads me to the inalienable truths of life- Only two things in life are certain- death and taxes.

FreudianSlippers

TroikaBox wrote: »

Subject to removal only by unsolicited and illegal coercion. This is an important distinction.

Let me guess, you're a freeman.

TroikaBox

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Let me guess, you're a freeman.

LOL - Those guys are quacks. A distinction between state and federal citizens has never really existed, at least in the USA. The Freemen are illegitimate:mad:

FreudianSlippers

Firstly, the rights can be removed with due process; simply.
Secondly, how are social welfare payments removing your right to "Life, Liberty, and private property"


I thought you were a Freeman because of your use of 'unalienable' in another thread and your capitalisation of random words.

TroikaBox

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Firstly, the rights can be removed with due process; simply.
Secondly, how are social welfare payments removing your right to "Life, Liberty, and private property"

Once this has occurred, a basic state of Fascism has been achieved. Social welfare payments affect your private property rights because you are forced against your will to pay high levels of income tax or face going to jail. This is state sanctioned theft in my eyes. Why isn't the individual allowed steal via threat of force, but yet it's ok for the Government?

Sponge Bob

TroikaBox wrote: »

Seems like just another way the Government can interfere in the inalienable rights of each and every citizen

A number is not interference ...mainly because it is a number. Why do you not like numbers?

longhalloween

TroikaBox wrote: »

Once this has occurred, a basic state of Fascism has been achieved. Social welfare payments affect your private property rights because you are forced against your will to pay high levels of income tax or face going to jail. This is state sanctioned theft in my eyes. Why isn't the individual allowed steal via threat of force, but yet it's ok for the Government?

Because that's the price you pay to live in a first world country, to enjoy the benefits of a health service, police, fire brigade, law, infrastructure, services, free (enough) education and the ability to get that decent job in the first place.

Everybody is expected to make a contribution. If that contribution was not enforced (PPS number tracking) then the system would fail.

If you don't like it there's always the option to leave. :pac:

TroikaBox

Sponge Bob wrote: »

A number is not interference ...mainly because it is a number. Why do you not like numbers?

Numbers of this nature are unique to the individual, thus this acts as a primary index to a vast array of private documents.

I would prefer do everything anonymously, but I might use a legal name if required.

The PPS number is a bit too "big brother" for my tastes. We live in precarious times.

TroikaBox

longhalloween wrote: »

is expected to make a contribution. If that contribution was not enforced (PPS number tracking) then the system would fail.

I am pretty sure they have the ability to collect tax/benefits without these "PPS" numbers:p Worked for thousands of years in the past. It's an invasion of privacy in my eyes.

Government should not have the ability to just snoop through records without a court order and reasonable cause.

CiaranC

longhalloween wrote: »

Because that's the price you pay to live in a first world country, to enjoy the benefits of a health service, police, fire brigade, law, infrastructure, services, free (enough) education and the ability to get that decent job in the first place.

In theory theres nothing stopping someone who is independently wealthy from moving here, living and not registering for a PPS number.

Sponge Bob

PPS numbers have been around for over 30 years ( they were PRSI numbers then). Why are they suddenly significant now.??

BostonB

The PPS number is also used to help eliminate someone pretending to be you.

You used numbers/address'es that identify you to get on the web and post this. If you really wanted to be anonymous you'd stay off the web.

marketty

Sponge Bob wrote: »

PPS numbers have been around for over 30 years ( they were PRSI numbers then). Why are they suddenly significant now.??

Because thanks to the Internet this 'freeman' thing has really taken off.
No PPS numbers in Somalia OP, that place seems to be a model of freeman living, give it a go and be sure to send us a postcard

Victor

TroikaBox wrote: »

Subject to removal only by unsolicited and illegal coercion. This is an important distinction.

But tax demands aren't illegal coercion.

TroikaBox wrote: »

Numbers of this nature are unique to the individual, thus this acts as a primary index to a vast array of private documents.

I would prefer do everything anonymously, but I might use a legal name if required.

The PPS number is a bit too "big brother" for my tastes. We live in precarious times.

So, would you be one of the gombeens who likes "cash" then.

JustinDee

TroikaBox wrote: »

Seems like just another way the Government can interfere in the inalienable rights of each and every citizen:mad: Is it possible to even opt out of the social welfare system? I highly doubt I will see a return on investment. Where is the choice?

Oh ffs. Its a number that can be used across all sorts of administrative platforms, saving time, money and bother. Used all over the world and successfully so.
No, you can't opt out.

JustinDee

TroikaBox wrote: »

By definition, any rights that aren't legislated into existence. Life, Liberty, and private property being the most notable ones.

"Private property"???
What deems something your own? A legally binding contract, be that buying a mars bar or a house, once you a transaction made, it is legally yours ie. protected as such by way of legislation.

Cavehill Red

I admire the defence of individualism offered by the OP, and feel that no stringent argument has been put up to him as yet.

Why should an individual not be entitled to withdraw from the state if they so choose? The answer does not lie in the excuse of democracy, since firstly democracy can rule against the interests of the individual, and secondly nowhere does actual democracy (where individuals genuinely have equal say in governing) exist, with the debatable exception of Switzerland, a country whose political system I personally greatly admire.
So far, the OP has merely been shouted down with retrograde defences of the status quo based on nothing more than 'it is, why change it?' and pathetic allegations of freemanism.
I'm personally in favour of a democratic state, but am uneasy with the concept of coercion without concomitant and meaningful rights, by which I mean genuine direct democracy as opposed to 'representative' oligarchic rule by elites.
That's why I'd like to see a more stringent and logical response to the OP. Can anyone formulate one?

Dr Galen

I tried to see some merit in this OP, and thread in general, but I just can't.

OP - If you wish to continue using this forum, I suggest you have a read of the Forum Charter and structure your posts accordingly

Cheers

DrG