Cromwell's writings and speeches on-line.

Bannasidhe

Following on from the success of the the digitisation of the 1641 Depositions by TCD, the University of Cambridge has just launched a similar project - the writings and speeches of Oliver Cromwell are now available at http://www.cromwell.hist.cam.ac.uk/.

Now we can all see what came from the horse's mouth before deciding if he was indeed the Biggest B*stard in Irish history or the Fall Guy*



*(I used to give a lecture with that title....:p)

CDfm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Now we can all see what came from the horse's mouth before deciding if he was indeed the Biggest B*stard in Irish history or the Fall Guy*



*(I used to give a lecture with that title....:p)

Don't stop now, you're on a roll.

AFAIK, he left my ancestors alone and didn't stable a horse anywhere he wasn't supposed to.

Before leaving Ireland through Water Gate Arch in 1650, Oliver Cromwell stabled 1,600 horses and cattle in the nave and chancel of St Mary's Collegiate Church built in 1220 by Maurice Fitzgerald. Cromwell's men desecrated coffin-lids and the building generally. It was not until 1865 that the church was restored and is now used by the Church of Ireland .http://www.commissionersofirishlights.com/cil/aids-to-navigation/lighthouses/youghal.aspx

Bannasidhe

CDfm wrote: »

Don't stop now, you're on a roll.

AFAIK, he left my ancestors alone and didn't stable a horse anywhere he wasn't supposed to.

A church on what was Raleigh's town which is now CoI? Surely Ollie didn't desecrate a Protestant church :eek:?

I may be on a roll- put I'd need the powerpoint presentation to take flight.

CDfm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

A church on what was Raleigh's town which is now CoI? Surely Ollie didn't desecrate a Protestant church :eek:?

He seemed to be fine with everybody cept the royalists.

MarchDub

Bannasidhe wrote: »

A church on what was Raleigh's town which is now CoI? Surely Ollie didn't desecrate a Protestant church :eek:?

Of course... that's what the Puritans were all about. Nothing new there.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

Of course... that's what the Puritans were all about. Nothing new there.

I didn't have you pegged as a Roundhead , MD .

Though I suppose Cromwell's main legacy was using Ireland to pay his army and the mayhem that caused.

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

I didn't have you pegged as a Roundhead , MD .

Well seeing as how the Puritans tried to ban Christmas, closed the theatres, and generally went around beating up on anyone who looked like they were having fun - who wouldn't be? :pac:

CDfm wrote: »

Though I suppose Cromwell's main legacy was using Ireland to pay his army and the mayhem that caused.

That - and beheading the King.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

Well seeing as how the Puritans tried to ban Christmas, closed the theatres, and generally went around beating up on anyone who looked like they were having fun - who wouldn't be? :pac:

I think they made a comeback. We elected them. :pac:

That - and beheading the King.

Was Charles I good ?

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

I think they made a comeback. We elected them. :pac:

Like this one you mean? He'd turn milk sour by looking at it.

CDfm wrote: »

Was Charles I good ?

At what?

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

Like this one you mean? He'd turn milk sour by looking at it.

You have a point.

At what?

So he was bad for Ireland then ?

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

So he was bad for Ireland then ?

It was more that Charles was regarded as the lesser of two evils really - the Irish nationalists saw Charles as being sympathetic towards Catholics [his wife was Catholic] as opposed to Cromwell and the Puritans who were against everyone - Catholics, Anglicans - but their own kind.

In 1641 there was still hope - expressed in the proclamation by the "Rebels of Ireland" of that year - that the lands seized from Catholic ownership would be restored.

Snickers Man

Ah the ironies of history!

Isn't it strange that the first great Republican to have a major influence in Ireland is not exactly remembered fondly in this Republic, least of all by republicans? And that the people whose trials and tribulations he came to avenge are today the most fervently royalist/monarchist on this island? Or should I say "these islands"?

I think it very likely that he would have desecrated Anglican churches. Most of them were regarded as "papists" anyway by the puritans. The basic viewpoint of Cromwell and his fundamentalists, in religious terms, was that man communed directly with God with only the bible to guide him. "Intercession" via a saint, or a church hierarchy was anathema to them, if one could use that word in such company

Much of the Anglican church was, and is, Catholic in all but name. Henry VIII, the first English king to break from Rome, was not really a Protestant; he was a Pope whose writ ruled in Britain and Ireland. Which, after he was crowned king of Ireland (prior to him all kings since the Norman conquest had been merely "Lords" of Ireland), was all the one country anyway.

The Anglican church retained an entrenched hierarchy and a certain belief in the "divine right of kings" which the Puritans despised. The doctrinal differences between High Anglicans and Roman Catholics remain minimal to this day. (Which of us can say they give a rat's ass about the essential difference between consubstantiation and transubstantiation?)

By the way, who was the "Irish prime minister who refused to enter the office of a British secretary of state because a portrait of Cromwell was on his wall"?

MarchDub

Snickers Man wrote: »

. 76825465]By the way, who was the "Irish prime minister who refused to enter the office of a British secretary of state because a portrait of Cromwell was on his wall"?

It was said of Bertie Ahern but he has denied that it happened in the way that it was written of in later references. Ahern says that when he saw the portrait of Cromwell in the room of the British Foreign Secretary he became uncomfortable and Robin Cook saw this and asked Ahern about it - but Ahern never walked out of the room. When asked by Cook he just told Cook of his discomfort at the prominent place the portrait had.

Enkidu

I just wanted to say to anybody who wants to know more about Cromwell, you really can't beat the massive book by Antonia Fraser "Cromwell, Our Chief of Men".

pedroeibar1

MarchDub wrote: »

It was said of Bertie Ahern ..............when he saw the portrait of Cromwell in the room of the British Foreign Secretary he became uncomfortable and Robin Cook saw this and asked Ahern about it........... he just told Cook of his discomfort at the prominent place the portrait had.

Dubhthach doesn't like him either; a few posts back I rattled his cage a bit when I commented on the Protector's statue outside the Houses of Parliament;):D.
Fraser's (nee Pakenham) book is a great read but heavy going for an amateur. Bulstrode Whitelocke's almost contempory account on Cromwell in Ireland is another good source. I would not be here but for Ollie's men, so I cannot complain too much.
Anyone got suggestions for sources in contemporary media on for e.g. the siege of Kilkenny (pamphlets, broadsheets, etc?) seeing as there were no newspapers. I have Prendergast.
Thanks,
P.

Bannasidhe

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Dubhthach doesn't like him either; a few posts back I rattled his cage a bit when I commented on the Protector's statue outside the Houses of Parliament;):D.
Fraser's (nee Pakenham) book is a great read but heavy going for an amateur. Bulstrode Whitelocke's almost contempory account on Cromwell in Ireland is another good source. I would not be here but for Ollie's men, so I cannot complain too much.
Anyone got suggestions for sources in contemporary media on for e.g. the siege of Kilkenny (pamphlets, broadsheets, etc?) seeing as there were no newspapers. I have Prendergast.
Thanks,
P.

If you can get access to Early English books on-line http://eebo.chadwyck.com/home that's a great resource.

State papers are available here: http://gale.cengage.co.uk/state-papers-online-15091714.aspx

slowburner

In the interests of balance, has anyone got anything good to say about Cromwell?

CDfm

slowburner wrote: »

In the interests of balance, has anyone got anything good to say about Cromwell?

Well he left my ancestors alone and I would say that is a definite plus.

A gentleman & a scholar.

Fratton Fred

slowburner wrote: »

In the interests of balance, has anyone got anything good to say about Cromwell?

From whose perspective?

From an English perspective he ensured England was controlled by a (un) democratically elected parliament and the monarch became little more than window dressing. At the time England was about the only country in europe without a king and I believe they weren't too sure what to do. The concept of a president didn't exist then. If it had, the UK would most likely have become the first proper republic in europe.

The statue outside Westminster is there as more of a warning to monarchy than anything else. Comply or die...

Also, he reluctantly (he was asked to take the NMA to Ireland by parliament, it wasn't his idea) protected England from the prospect of yet another episode in the civil war and the possibility of English land given to "Irish" nobles. Good news for the English, very bad news for Ireland.

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

Well he left my ancestors alone and I would say that is a definite plus.

All politics is local...:pac:

CDfm wrote: »

A gentleman & a scholar.

The jury is still out on the scholar part of that. His first biographer, James Heath - who admittedly went into exile with Charles II - was at pains to point out that Oliver was inconsistent in his interest in scholarship and books and preferred raiding local orchards to study.

Fraser tries to answer this but really only concludes that Cromwell was an energetic boy who may not have loved books but did have

"a soul awakened within to a dialogue with God and a notion of searching out by signs His will on earth".

This is likely what made him so dangerous/violent to opponents.

CDfm

MarchDub wrote: »

All politics is local...:pac:



The jury is still out on the scholar part of that. His first biographer, James Heath - who admittedly went into exile with Charles II - was at pains to point out that Oliver was inconsistent in his interest in scholarship and books and preferred raiding local orchards to study.

Fraser tries to answer this but really only concludes that Cromwell was an energetic boy who may not have loved books but did have

I think you are being overly harsh here.

This is likely what made him so dangerous/violent to opponents.

Whosever God he was speaking to seemed to have a good perspective on things.

MarchDub

CDfm wrote: »

I think you are being overly harsh here.


Whosever God he was speaking to seemed to have a good perspective on things.

Amazingly Gods always seem to! Makes life easy...

CDfm

slowburner wrote: »

In the interests of balance, has anyone got anything good to say about Cromwell?

MarchDub wrote: »

Amazingly Gods always seem to! Makes life easy...

I think we have achieved balance here

Precious flower

There's a programme on Blighty called 'Great Britons' and they did an episode about Cromwell. It might be an interesting watch, it was on a few nights ago so it might be on again soon. Was looking for it on YouTube but couldn't find it!