fuell cell technology taking-off, which trade ?

heinbloed

The first field tests of fuell cells in the home heating sector are taking off.

http://www.callux.net/home.English.html

http://www.baxi-innotech.de/index.php?lang=1

http://www.vaillant.de/Presse/Press-Releases/article/Vaillant_Group_presents_first_wall-hung_fuel_cells_heating_appliance.html

Vaillant has a small wall-hung element now in the field test, 2kW on the thermal side and 1 kW on the electric side. This size would suit me well.

Which trade in Ireland is responsible for the correct installation of fuel cells? Chemists, physicians, plumbers, electricians, factory trained DIYers, civil engineers, gas fitters ... ?

Thanks!

anuprising

electro mechanical engineers do it here in Ireland

who does it on Pluto ?

heinbloed

Thanks, are there gas fitters (RGIs) on Pluto?
These fuel cells run on methane (natural gas) or LPG and have to be maintained anually.
I don't know of Irish electric engineers capeable to do this type of legally restricted work, hence my question.....

anuprising

just cause they don't post on here doesn't mean they don't exist

do you want help with something ?

we here in Ireland get technology last but our engineers are leading the way in development - our infrastructure lags behind mainland Europe

you should consider posting on a uk forum as they are a few years ahead of us :rolleyes:

heinbloed

I need to do the cost-benefit calculation.
So the maintenance costs ( without any spare parts,fuel etc.) play an important role.
Flying-in maintenance staff from abroad is out of question.
For a standard gas boiler the anual maintenance is around €100.- per year, incl. the certificate.
How much do I have to expect for a fuel cell boiler-generator incl. a certification for the insurance, gas safety and grid feed-in electricity ?

Are there already price lists from registered specialists for this type of work?

The device is small, 1 kw on the electricity and max. 2 kW on the heating side.

http://www.hexis.com/ (already available in Switzerland)

or

the Vaillant device once available

http://www.vaillant.de/Presse/Press-Releases/article/Vaillant_Group_presents_first_wall-hung_fuel_cells_heating_appliance.html


PS
The anual maintenance includes meassurements of CO, CO2, methane/propane and hydrogen in the flue gas as well as the meassured electric output, resistance etc..
I'm pretty unexperienced in this type of generators, so any advice on the costs is welcome.

anuprising

given that none are installed in Ireland (officially )

costs are no more than a proper service currently being offered
turbine is really the only extra part used in these units

flue gas analysis is nothing new ( how to read them properly is )

on the electrical side , multi meter and clamp meter
anyone doing a new gid is given instruction on electrical testing and it's more rigorous than the gas test ( my opinion)

don't know whether you being smart posting here but maintenance costs on these fuel cells will be no dearer than normal when/if they become mainstream

won't be for a while here but if you want one and you can supply it , I will install it , set it up to manufacturers spec , commission in accordance with local regs and bye laws , and sign up a maintenance contract if you wish - gas and electrical .

how much can you get one for ?

heinbloed

Mmh, I'm not sure if you understand what is involved, anuprising...

There is no turbine involved. It is a fuel cell.

The gas readings required are considerable different from a gas boiler, since hydrogen is involved I'm not willing to let an ordinary gas fitter next to it.

The electricity grid it will be connected to is the public grid. Buying and purchasing via the same cable, emergency separation, meters, surge protection etc...

Are you (a gas fitter) handling fuel cells, any experience, what makes/fuels?

The costs of the fuel cells (in this size) are around € 5,000 - 10,000 purchase only. Depending on the make the condition could be that it will only be installed and comissioned by the company manufacturing it.
Afterwards it's up to the owner and national legislations who maintains the device.

Billy Bunting

The costs of the fuel cells (in this size) are around € 5,000 - 10,000 purchase only. Depending on the make the condition could be that it will only be installed and comissioned by the company manufacturing it.
Afterwards it's up to the owner and national legislations who maintains the device.

Then who in their right mind would look to import one into this country, now! :rolleyes:

DGOBS

Surely there isn't hydrogen in the flue gas, if so stand well back!
(unless mixed with a healthy amount of O2)
I m not aware of any RGI in this line of work, maybe contact the manufacturer to see if they have trained any warranty staff for this country and deal with them for any service requirements.

anuprising

think he just trying to belittle people on here

DGOBS

Yeah, but I haven't found an extraordinary gas fitter advert yet!

But, current legislation would require someone who is RGI registered (gas fitter) as to work on it would be deemed as gaswork,

heinbloed

DGOBS has got it, gas fueled fuel cells come under gas legislations. Well, at least as long as they are connected to the public grid.

There are also alcohol fueled fuel cells, Irish legislations propably demand the maintenance done by a publican (now I'm belitteling, anuprising).

All fuel cells 'consume' hydrogen as far as I know, mobile phones can run on methanol and are available in the shops.

Hydrogen is present in our atmosphere, an increase in the hydrogen concentration in the flue gas of a fuel cell would indicate a failure or an aging of the cell, an inefficient operation.Therefore it should be meassured during the inspection.
I'm an amateur and looking for information myself ...

Seriously: is there any defined legislation for fuel cells working on gas?
There are fridges and heat pumps running on gas as well, are these to be maintained by gas fitters ?

Any link to an Irish 'fuel cell organisation' or the like?

Thanks.

DGOBS

You see your trying to put a cart before the horse..

There is no legislation for a gas driven appliance other than what the CER has written to date for gas installations.

You are talking about a relatively new technology, some of which come and go pretty quickly, so to have a government body there trying to keep pace with it would really be an act of futility, and not constructive at all.

Once a technology is proven and rolled out in the country, normally the manufacturers would start by offering training to the appropriate sectors (in this case electricians and gas installers) in the installation, service and repair requirements for a given appliance.

If the installers are seeing a demand, then they avail of that training, remember for me to go and get involved in a new technology costs me money, and as a business I would need to see a ROI for any new venture, we are not a commodity that is there to bend to the will of one or two people who wish to trailblaze and new technology into this country.

Most installers who jump feet first into new technologies as they have come to the market have found it very difficult to survive as a business (of course there is a few wealthy lucky few also) so for you to come here and try and belittle installers who spend a lot of time and money keeping themselves up to date is unfair and unwarranted.

Also, the fact that professionals in the industry are willing to come here and debate technologies with other professionals and non-professionals alike free of charge should be viewed as a positive thing, not as you seem to view it.

We are in general a profession who constantly evolve to encompass new technologies, and at times do see the need to specialize as technolgies become more advanced, this is nothing new to our industry as to date you will find general plumbers - gas plumbers - oil plumbers - domestic - non-domestic - industrial - catering - appliance specialists and the list goes on.

The reason there is no expertise on this fuel cell CHP unit to date in the country as there is no demand from the public, and the manufacturers have not seen fit to launch it here yet and supply the appropriate training for installers (service training usually comes on stream after the initial installer training) so for this I would recommend you direct you line of questioning directly to the appliance manufacturer to see what if any support shall be given in Ireland for said appliance.

heinbloed

So no information on home heating fuel cells in the heating and plumbing forum......thanks for nothing, so far.

DGOBS

Once again, why would we have spent time training for an appliance that has not been marketed here? (yet)

Most here run their own business, we don't sit at home consuming manuals and technical data, we work on installing and maintaining current installations and train on new technologies as they arrive onshore if there is demand for it.

This isn't a hobby for us.

I have given you help, I have told you the facts about this technology IN IRELAND and have directed you to the manufacturer for more info. Or do they not want to engage with unqualified people?
If not maybe someone here would do it on your behalf, if you treated them with a little more respect and dignity.

anuprising

what information do you want specifically on a free public forum ?

would you like to book a consultation with me and I can come and discuss your needs and will have all information calculations and estimates to hand

pm me your area and I will schedule an appointment for you

Joey the lips

No information available so thread closed - Thanks for all the contrabutions