Notice and Deposit

coco_lola

Hi There,

My housemates and I are trying to move out of our house and the landlord is being extremely sticky about it. My housemate took out a one year lease last January 2011 on the house, and me and the other housemate moved in in September. The lease was up this month and the landlord never contacted us to review/renew so I assume first of all that we automatically entered a Part 4 Tenancy with this?

Our house was broken into on Saturday night and as a result we feel uncomfortable in the house, as this isn't the first time safety has been an issue since we moved in. There is a house alarm so I don't think we can use that as a reason for leaving. We called the landlord and advised him we wanted to move and were giving our notice. Our rent is paid on the 15th of every month, and we told him that while we would ideally like to move on the 15th February, we understand that this may not be enough notice for him, so we advised we would stay until the end of February, pay an extra two weeks rent, and facilitate any viewings he wanted to arrange. He became irate and said that it was "an overreaction" and we can't just leave whenever we feel like it.

We are giving him enough notice through the terms of the Part 4 tenancy, what is the situation with deposits etc, should we tell him take the final 2 weeks rent from our deposit, or have we any reasonable grounds to leave on the 15th with only 2 weeks notice? Also, where do we stand if he refuses to give back the deposit (as he seems like this would be a problem)?

djimi

Once you are in a part 4 tenancy (ie once you did not sign another fixed term lease when your first term ended) and provided you gave the landlord the correct amount of notice required he cannot prevent you from leaving the accomodation. You have no obligation to stay beyond the agreed time stated in the signed lease. Once correct notice is given and you are paid up to date to the time you are leaving your landlord has no reason to penalize you for moving out.

the_syco

coco_lola wrote: »

My housemate took out a one year lease last January 2011 on the house, and me and the other housemate moved in in September.

To confirm: are you subletting from the original housemate, or did you sign a lease with the landlord?

coco_lola

We didn't sign any lease when we arrived, so I guess we must be subletting from the original housemate. She had two other housemates at the time she took out the lease, but the lease was in her name, and they moved out, we took their place.

djimi

You may have another problem on your hands (or rather the original housemate may have a problem on her hands) as a lot of landlords do not like or allow subletting, and if she didnt inform him of the arrangement then he might take issue with it. That doesnt change anything with regard the original lease though; she signed a lease over a year ago, that lease and fixed term has now expired, and assuming you havent signed anything else then you are free to move provided you give the landlord the correct notice outlined in a part 4 tenancy.

coco_lola

She informed him of it and he was ok with it, so essentially I assume we were subletting from her, although we lodged the money direct to the landlords account every month. So the main thing is that we are entitled to go with the 35 days notice period, we will pay an extra two weeks rent and be entitled to our deposit back. He strikes me as someone who will be difficult when it comes to the deposit, any advice on this?

gibo_ie

I would think that if you never signed a new lease it was a continuation of the old one. If this was just over a year then its 42 days notice in writing to the landlord. I understand you only moved in in September but if you were just continuing someone else's lease and haven't signed a new one, i would take it as 42 days (From a Landlords point of view anyway!)


Duration of Tenancy Notice by Landlord
Less than 6 months 28 days
6 or more months but less than 1 year 35 days
1 year or more but less than 2 years 42 days
2 years or more but less than 3 years 56 days
3 years or more but less than 4 years 84 days
4 or more years 112 days

djimi

coco_lola wrote: »

She informed him of it and he was ok with it, so essentially I assume we were subletting from her, although we lodged the money direct to the landlords account every month. So the main thing is that we are entitled to go with the 35 days notice period, we will pay an extra two weeks rent and be entitled to our deposit back. He strikes me as someone who will be difficult when it comes to the deposit, any advice on this?

Was a full inventory taken and signed when the original tenant moved in a year ago? Was all existing damage at the time noted and agreed? This will make any deposit returning discussions a lot more straightforward.

If none of this was done at the time then the best I can say is clean the place to the best of your ability and for anything that might require repair get a quote yourself to ensure that you are not going to get ripped off by the landlord. Do not allow the landlord to talk you into paying for any cosmetic touchups; normal wear and tear of the apartment and the likes of furniture is not your responsibility, nor is it up to you to pay to have the place painted/cleaned after you leave unless you have done damage that does beyond what would be considered normal wear and tear.

Zamboni

coco_lola wrote: »

She informed him of it and he was ok with it, so essentially I assume we were subletting from her, although we lodged the money direct to the landlords account every month. So the main thing is that we are entitled to go with the 35 days notice period, we will pay an extra two weeks rent and be entitled to our deposit back. He strikes me as someone who will be difficult when it comes to the deposit, any advice on this?

Who did you give your deposit to (if any) and who has it now?

coco_lola

djimi wrote: »

Was a full inventory taken and signed when the original tenant moved in a year ago? Was all existing damage at the time noted and agreed? This will make any deposit returning discussions a lot more straightforward.

I don't think an inventory was done, I have to check with the original housemate. There have been some issues that need repairing but these have been ongoing issues that keep cropping up and the landlord is completely aware of them, e.g dishwasher not working, gate not locking properly, door handles falling off (house is falling apart!). He has been over multiple times to look at this and everything else is perfect.

Zamboni wrote: »

Who did you give your deposit to (if any) and who has it now?

Deposits were given to original housemate. With regard to who has it now, I honestly don't know. She could have given them to the original two housemates, or she could have given them to the landlord. Problem is, is that she has taken off and left us in the lurch. We have limited contact with her, when she decides to answer her phone.

djimi

coco_lola wrote: »

I don't think an inventory was done, I have to check with the original housemate. There have been some issues that need repairing but these have been ongoing issues that keep cropping up and the landlord is completely aware of them, e.g dishwasher not working, gate not locking properly, door handles falling off (house is falling apart!). He has been over multiple times to look at this and everything else is perfect.

Its hard to say how the landlord will handle returning the deposit but without an inventory or agreed damage list its going to be your word against theirs. There are people who can help mediate in the event of a dispute over returned deposit, but hopefully it wont come to that!

coco_lola wrote: »

Deposits were given to original housemate. With regard to who has it now, I honestly don't know. She could have given them to the original two housemates, or she could have given them to the landlord. Problem is, is that she has taken off and left us in the lurch. We have limited contact with her, when she decides to answer her phone.

Ordinarily what would happen in situations like that would be the remaining housemate gives your deposits to the outgoing housemates and the landlord retains the original deposits until you move out. It may be different in your case of course.

Zamboni

coco_lola wrote: »

Deposits were given to original housemate. With regard to who has it now, I honestly don't know. She could have given them to the original two housemates, or she could have given them to the landlord. Problem is, is that she has taken off and left us in the lurch. We have limited contact with her, when she decides to answer her phone.

Ok so to summarise...

You have signed nothing.
You gave a deposit to the original housemate who is the person who signed the original lease.

The way I see it you should pay no more rent and leave when it suits.
You have entered no written contractual agreement with anybody and it is highly unlikely that you will see your deposit again.
You have no obligations here.

the_syco

coco_lola wrote: »

Deposits were given to original housemate.

Your landlord can't give you back a deposit that you never gave to them, so inquire who got the deposits?

coco_lola

the_syco wrote: »

Your landlord can't give you back a deposit that you never gave to them, so inquire who got the deposits?

Managed to get in touch with housemate. Looks like the landlord has our deposits. The only thing is I'll be out of pocket by 400quid cause that was the deposit, and our rent is paid up.

djimi

Why will you be out of pocket by €400?

coco_lola

djimi wrote: »

Why will you be out of pocket by €400?

Sorry, I when I said I would be out of pocket by 400, I was referring to the below solution:

Zamboni wrote: »

Ok so to summarise...

You have signed nothing.
You gave a deposit to the original housemate who is the person who signed the original lease.

The way I see it you should pay no more rent and leave when it suits.
You have entered no written contractual agreement with anybody and it is highly unlikely that you will see your deposit again.
You have no obligations here.

djimi

Ah fair enough. Im still not sure you will be out of pocket, or at least that you should expect to be. A deposit is usually paid in full, not broken down by tenant (a deposit for 3 people in a €900 house for example is €900, not 3 x €300), so unless the original agreement has a different arrangement the landlord is obliged to return the deposit in full (or as much as they deem you will be getting back) and its then up to you to split it between yourselves as you see fit.

petethebrick

Don't pay for the final two weeks of february, tell the landlord to take that out of your deposit. And then hopefully you'll get back the other 200euro when you move out

coco_lola

Spoke to Landlord. He is enforcing the 45 days notice, so we'll have to stay there 6 weeks. As our housemate has upped and left, where do we stand as she was the original leaseholder? Can we just tell him to keep our deposit as the rent is paid for the next two weeks, and our deposit will cover the last month's rent?

djimi

You can suggest it but he not obliged to allow you to use your deposit as the last months rent. Has your housemate paid her last months rent? Her name is on the lease I presume so it is in her interest to get back to you and sort everything out.

odds_on

Originally Posted by djimi
Its hard to say how the landlord will handle returning the deposit but without an inventory or agreed damage list its going to be your word against theirs. There are people who can help mediate in the event of a dispute over returned deposit, but hopefully it wont come to that!

If there was no entry inventory done, the landlord would have great difficulty in convincing a PRTB adjudicator that any damage was done by the tenant as he has nothing to prove his case. Adjudication would therefore be given in the tenants' favour - namely return in full their deposit.

I believe that so many landlords have adjudication against them because in their mind they are correct but fail to prove their case by proper paperwork.

djimi

odds_on wrote: »

If there was no entry inventory done, the landlord would have great difficulty in convincing a PRTB adjudicator that any damage was done by the tenant as he has nothing to prove his case. Adjudication would therefore be given in the tenants' favour - namely return in full their deposit.

I believe that so many landlords have adjudication against them because in their mind they are correct but fail to prove their case by proper paperwork.

Is that how the PRTB determines these disputes? Fair enough; i wasnt sure about that.

odds_on

djimi wrote: »

Is that how the PRTB determines these disputes? Fair enough; i wasnt sure about that.

If the landlord can prove, usually with a detailed inventory (+ photos if poss.) which has been signed by tyhe tenants, stating the condition of everything then the landlord has the upper hand. If the landlord can prove that the furniture was all new (by providing receipts/invoices with a full description of the each item) at the start of the tenancy, this would also go a long way to proving any damage, even without an entry inventory - but what about the condition of floors, walls and all fixtures and fittings - these need to be on an entry inventory.

Again if the tenant has signed the inventory he cannot later say that that something was broken when he has signed the inventory as being a true and accurate record of what is on the inventory; i.e. at the bottom of the inventory there should be a phrase similar to:

This is a true and accurate record of the above mentioned items. Signed ..........

The PRTB basically acts as a court of law and solid proof is the name of the game. Tenants will usually be given the benefit of any doubt as they are not professionals - landlords are considered professionals in renting so should have all the paperwork to prove their case.

When in doubt, play safe and keep full records. All landlord/tenant communication should be in writing. Likewise, any tenant with a complaint re a landlord's obligations should be in writing - (even after an initial phone call or text message). Although text messages are good, nothing is better than the written word, again, best on the computer where you can keep a copy (but it can also be modified by the unscrupulous person!).