Do you prefer your greens undulating or flat?

The_Architect

If we were talking extremes, do you enjoy playing on pancake flat greens or hugely undulating greens more?

Why?

charlieIRL

the more slopes the merrier - whats the point in flat greens?!!

The_Architect

charlieIRL wrote: »

the more slopes the merrier - whats the point in flat greens?!!

That's effectively how I see it but there are plenty who would disagree.

As someone who likes undulating greens, have you ever played on any that you consider over the top?

charlieIRL

no, don't think so. The 5th (i think) in Tullamore is a very tricky and hard to read green but I have never come across one yet that made me think "WTF are these lads at?!!" Some hole positions maybe but not greens themselves.

dnjoyce

13th (i think) in Mount Temple is the only green I've ever walked off thinking that it was just ridiculously unfair. Granted the time I played it the greens were running fast, but I saw many people over the weekend seeing 20 footers get to within a foot of the hole and then roll back to their feet and sometimes further away from where they started. Nonsensical stuff.

Generally speaking though, more slopes are better than none at all imo.

Rikand

charlieIRL wrote: »

no, don't think so. The 5th (i think) in Tullamore is a very tricky and hard to read green but I have never come across one yet that made me think "WTF are these lads at?!!" Some hole positions maybe but not greens themselves.

That's the par 5 ? it's a very tough one, but made even more tough by some of the ridiculous places they stick the pin.

The one after it is an almost impossible read. Every putt is almost straight, but the green slopes massively back to front and you think the putts "have" to break from back to front. They don't.

on topic.

I'd prefer flat greens. It's more about how good your stroke is than how well you can guess if the break is 20 feet or 21 feet and then underhitting it slightly, only giving it 15 feet of break and ending up 45 feet from the hole cause you caught the wrong slope

Poker Face

When the Ring of Kerry GC first opened some of the greens there were bordering uplayable. The one I remember best is the 7th par 3. Guy Im playing with hits the green pin high at the back of the green but has probably a 40 foot putt for birdie. He hits his putt, gets within about 3 feet of the hole when it catches a slope and just keeps going, going and gone off the green and into a water hazard. He proceeds to take his drop, chips up the green when the ball does a u turn back down the green into the drain again!! By now I'm in stitches!!. Thankfully they changed them eventually and are much more playable now.

Russman

Ahh, but some would say reading the slope correctly is also part of the game, not just the stroke

I find Edmondstown's greens to be very undulating, they're not too hard to putt on though coz the slopes are so severe that, as far as I know, they can't cut them right down to be really quick...
If they ever had them quick, they'd be impossible to putt on.

I also remember a few years ago at the Barton Shield up in Powerscourt on the West Course the greens were borderline silly, there was one par 3 (maybe the 5th or 6th) where some guys just gave each other halves !
I recall having a 30 footer as our second putt on the ninth :eek:

Generally though, I prefer undulating.

blue note

I generally prefer the slightly flatter greens - because I grew up with them I'd say. But as long as they're fair I wouldn't give out.

Kevinmarkham

Poker Face wrote: »

When the Ring of Kerry GC first opened some of the greens there were bordering uplayable. The one I remember best is the 7th par 3. Guy Im playing with hits the green pin high at the back of the green but has probably a 40 foot putt for birdie. He hits his putt, gets within about 3 feet of the hole when it catches a slope and just keeps going, going and gone off the green and into a water hazard. He proceeds to take his drop, chips up the green when the ball does a u turn back down the green into the drain again!! By now I'm in stitches!!. Thankfully they changed them eventually and are much more playable now.

Yea, played there at the very start and the Pro actually told us that on three of the greens we should take three putts and then pick up and walk off. Crazy.

A couple of the greens at Bantry Bay have similar traits. I was moaning to the Captain after a Scratch Cup, saying that my playing partner had taken two 30 foot putts and didn't have to move as the ball came back to his feet. It took him four to hole out. The Captain told me it had taken him five putts. Again, crazy.

Leinster Hills has (or had) some nightmare slopes too.

In answer to the question, I prefer slopes - but not big whacky tiers. It has to be fair. Watching your putt move left and/or right, going where you want it to go gives you a good buzz about reading the line and pace accurately. I'd rather sink a swinging 8 foot putt than a straight 15 foot putt - but it's been a while since I managed either.

thewobbler

I think everyone must prefer the challenge of rolling greens - but the greenkeeper/course manager has a big say in the enjoyment of greens. On rolling greens, if time isn't taken to provide pin placements that are actually achievable, then the slopes aren't so much a challenge to your card, as a boundary to success.

By the way, I'm not asking for easy placements here and I always expect a range of difficulty, but if pin placement means that the only winning strategy for a long par 4, is a 200 yard draw to an area of 10 square feet, then that's not what I want to sign up for.

Webbs

I like undulating greens as then both line and weight are both challenges for longer putts. However a good putt or approach shot has to be rewarded so each green has to have hole locations where the slopes are gentle or flat so that you are not faced with a 6 footer with 3 feet of break.

The_Architect

For what it's worth, I think greens are sometimes maintained at too fast a speed for the undulations that are designed within. This is the usually why we end up with stories such as the 2 or 3 above (which are often as much to do with flattish surfaces with one main slope as with undulations)

Going to Wobbler's point, very occasionally I think it OK to have a pin position that is almost impossible to get close to with a long approach.

Osgoodisgood

thewobbler wrote: »

I think everyone must prefer the challenge of rolling greens - but the greenkeeper/course manager has a big say in the enjoyment of greens. On rolling greens, if time isn't taken to provide pin placements that are actually achievable, then the slopes aren't so much a challenge to your card, as a boundary to success.

This is pretty much exactly what I was going to say. Pin placement is crucial particularly on exposed fast tiered greens especially on windy days. A putt that barely reaches the hole which then picks up pace and finishes 30 yards off the green is not the hallmark of quality greenkeeping.

bustercherry

Don't really care either way but I hate ridiculous pin placements. Played a course in Vegas where the pin placement was so bad, on a slope, you could not get to within 8 foot (if you didn't make you putt ).

GreeBo

In Grange we dug up and reshaped 2 of our greens and have one more thats within our sights...
The problem is that what was a fine slope on older, meadow grass greens is now impossible and unfair on the new, faster grasses.

Pin position is vital in making a hole playable, but if the green is bad even with good, sensible positioning you can end up with greens that only have maybe 2 usable positions, which is pretty boring for members.

The_Architect

GreeBo wrote: »

In Grange we dug up and reshaped 2 of our greens and have one more thats within our sights...
The problem is that what was a fine slope on older, meadow grass greens is now impossible and unfair on the new, faster grasses.

Pin position is vital in making a hole playable, but if the green is bad even with good, sensible positioning you can end up with greens that only have maybe 2 usable positions, which is pretty boring for members.

This gets to the heart of the matter.

With the need for speed, all old greens are gradually getting flattened. I'd rather slightly slower greens with bigger undulation. More fun.

PhilipMarlowe

I really enjoyed the Castle Course at St. Andrews which has some mad greens, though possibly a couple are a little too extreme. Played it in November but I know some of the guys weren't that fond of it and it created plenty of argument over pints afterwards with most of those "against" arguing that you should have a birdie chance from anywhere on the green whereas I didn't mind the fact that you could be 10ft away and in danger of 3 putting if you're on the wrong part of the green. I aslo felt that they couldn't have the greens that fast in summer but would be interested to see them in season and how you'd manage if they were summer firm.
I drove the 9th green and then 4 putted for bogey so it's not that I played well that made me love the place. However, as much as I loved it, I'm not sure I'd want undulating greens every time out. I aslo enjoy subtlety on pacey greens.

Senecio

I prefer greens with subtle undulations that take a bit of skill to read. More enjoyable to pick that subtle break and roll your ball on a line that your playing partners didn't see.

Nothing wrong with steeper slopes to break a green up into tiers, but there needs to be a selection of pin positions that reward good approachs and putts.

k.p.h

I really love greens with tiers or false fronts etc. but mad undulations or turtle back shaped greens are just taking the piss and taking the skill out of it. You should be rewarded for hitting the right area of the green but you should never have a major triple breaker if you miss.