Do we actually have complete 'freedom' ?

LighterGuy

Lets look at recent times:

- Vat increase to 23%
- New tv license to include owning a pc (at a higher cost no doubt)
- SOPA and PIPA
- household charge
- increasing the price of alcohol in off-licenses.
- this new ACTA thing.
- etc (I could go on) But add your own


So define 'freedom' - cause we are not getting asked to vote certain new things in. It comes in and you gotta accept it.

Poll is included.
For me ... I dont think there is utter freedom. Yeah sure you can do alot being a person. But you dont have a say. Even people as a whole dont have a say. We dont make the laws. Others in power do.

Sl!mCharles

Freedom to make choices as long as we make the right ones!!!

old_aussie

Next thing they'll want you to pay for water.

O' the poor suffering Irish.

shanered

Thats quite a philiosophical question there........:p

AlmightyCushion

How do vat increases, the household charge, increases in alcohol prices limit freedom?

Victor

LighterGuy wrote: »

Lets look at recent times:

- Vat increase to 23%
- New tv license to include owning a pc (at a higher cost no doubt)
- SOPA and PIPA
- household charge
- increasing the price of alcohol in off-licenses.
- this new ACTA thing.
- etc (I could go on) But add your own


So define 'freedom' - cause we are not getting asked to vote certain new things in. It comes in and you gotta accept it.

Poll is included.
For me ... I dont think there is utter freedom. Yeah sure you can do alot being a person. But you dont have a say. Even people as a whole dont have a say. We dont make the laws. Others in power do.

Banned.

LighterGuy

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

How do vat increases, the household charge, increases in alcohol prices limit freedom?

Because people did not have a choice. A say. It was brought in. Thats it.

Darius.Tr

old_aussie wrote: »

Next thing they'll want you to pay for water.

O' the poor suffering Irish.

Well paying for water is common in most of the eu countries...but yeah I vote for no, these new "laws" start to appear more often than before, who knows what they will decide next,pay tax for breathing, im sure they'll come up with something....

Eric Cartman

freedom means walking through a park, naked, firing an automatic rifle into the air, singing racist songs while smoking a joint and necking a can to celibrate your missus having an abortion.

this you cannot do without being arrested, thus we are not free.

Chuck Stone

More free than donkeys but not as free as birds.

Stereomaniac

Just because you can't see your cage, doesn't mean that you're free!

dxhound2005

Darius.Tr wrote: »

Well paying for water is common in most of the eu countries...but yeah I vote for no, these new "laws" start to appear more often than before, who knows what they will decide next,pay tax for breathing, im sure they'll come up with something....

"They" wouldn't be there to decide what's next if you hadn't voted "them" in.

quietriot

AlmightyCushion wrote: »

How do vat increases, the household charge, increases in alcohol prices limit freedom?

They don't, obviously, but he needed something to add credibility to the little rant...otherwise...ya know...it'd just be another baseless rant.

LighterGuy, you're free to leave the country if you don't like those measures...that is freedom.

We have a reasonable amount of freedom. Some people can't be trusted to watch themselves though, as the prison figures show, so some limitations on freedom have to be imposed for the good of society.

Chuck Stone

Eric Cartman wrote: »

freedom means walking through a park,

Park paid for by who?

firing an automatic rifle into the air,

But there are other people in the park and you're frightening them and then there's the noise.

singing racist songs

You're upsetting people who identify with that race.

while smoking a joint and necking a can

agree with this

to celibrate your missus having an abortion.

Depends on whether the fetus will suffer. At some point the right to be protected from pain and suffering of the fetus must be taken into consideration.

this you cannot do without being arrested, thus we are not free.

Lol.

mikom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVY7qDjrPZk

later12

Of course we do not have complete liberty.

If one must enjoy even an ounce of state sponsored equality, then one's freedom must be reduced correspondingly.

Equality and liberty are essentially mutually exclusive. You cannot be totally at liberty if you are totally equal to everyone else; you cannot be totally equal to everyone else and be your own man.

The question of how best to reconcile liberty with equality is a question that has dogged human kind since the French Revolution. In the end, it all comes down to a matter of personal philosophy.

This is the crux of an argument between traditional 'right' and 'left' wing politics. Thankfully, preference between the left v right debate is not a question that the OP has asked, but the answer to the original question is most certainly "No, we are not completely free",and we never were prior to these taxes either. Not since man left the cave and saw his reflection in other men has he ever been free.

LighterGuy

quietriot wrote: »

They don't, obviously, but he needed something to add credibility to the little rant...otherwise...ya know...it'd just be another baseless rant.

LighterGuy, you're free to leave the country if you don't like those measures...that is freedom.

We have a reasonable amount of freedom. Some people can't be trusted to watch themselves though, as the prison figures show, so some limitations on freedom have to be imposed for the good of society.

Do you have any fucking clue what you are talking about

what the fuck does laws such as SOPA, PIPA, ACTA and the household charge, increase of alcohol (etc) have to do with prison figures.

No doubt you'll get back with some failed attempt to redeem yourself.

Eric Cartman

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin

our loss of freedom stems from our desire for security

rossie1977

of course we don't have complete freedom, there is still censorship, there is still prohibition, you can't buy alcohol after a certain time, you can't buy it at all on certain days

Stereomaniac

Does freedom match up with anarchy? I am just curious what peoples' different takes on it are. Maybe a serial killer who never gets caught is truly free. Maybe a figurehead, a leader.

Eric Cartman

Stereomaniac wrote: »

Does freedom match up with anarchy? I am just curious what peoples' different takes on it are. Maybe a serial killer who never gets caught is truly free. Maybe a figurehead, a leader.

anarchy can thrive in a free society, but a free society does not necessitate anarchy.

Chuck Stone

LighterGuy wrote: »

- increasing the price of alcohol in off-licenses.

I have some sympathy for this ^^ being an encroachment on personal freedom.

If we leave aside that you can home brew and take it as a given that alcohol prices are being increased to benefit a cabal of Publicans/VFI then I believe that to be an erosion of personal freedom - of sorts.

Eric Cartman

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Park paid for by who?
But there are other people in the park and you're frightening them and then there's the noise.

You're upsetting people who identify with that race.

Depends on whether the fetus will suffer. At some point the right to be protected from pain and suffering of the fetus must be taken into consideration.

Having the freedom to do something does not mean that common decency goes out the window, If it was legal to fire weapons in a park, there would not suddenly be hundreds of people doing it

The abortion thing depends on whether you consider something life, medically a faoetus doesnt have what I would call life until many weeks into the pregnancy, at the UK cutoff point of 12 weeks, I and many others do not consider it to be a viable life, If people dont like abortion, dont have one. The problem with freedom restricting laws is that they are there to appease a minority at the expense of rational thinking.

quietriot

LighterGuy wrote: »

Do you have any fucking clue what you are talking about

Yes, but it's pretty clear you don't, and not for the first time today

what the fuck does laws such as SOPA, PIPA, ACTA

You do realise that those are attempts to protect people's rights, right? They're not just trying to impose on your freedom, man, or trying to "harsh your buzz", they're in reaction to people quite flagrantly abusing the freedom they have to access material online.

The issues with SOPA is that it's over the top and gives private corporations power that they shouldn't be given, NOT that the base of it imposes on your individual freedom. It has the potential to damage our individual freedom, but is not created for that purpose.

It's clear that action is needed to protect the rights of the creations of individuals, the answers proposed aren't the solution but it will be implemented in some way and rightfully so. If I create something, it is my creation and I have rights associated with it. You are not free to infringe on those rights. Do you see how that works? Or are you against rights now? Because if you are, I'm sure you'd be thrilled to see your rights removed to increase the "freedom" of others.

I mean, I'm sure there's no point really, it's clear that you've got a few buzz terms and you're dead set on ranting about them.

What is the household charge restricting you from doing? Nothing, it affects your personal freedom in no way, but hey, don't let that stand in the way of your illogical little rant. Use that soapbox sir, get it off your chest

and the household charge, increase of alcohol (etc) have to do with prison figures.

They don't. Try reading properly. My point was that prison figures reflect the fact that people can't be trusted with freedom, even that what we have now, so complete freedom will never be an option.

No doubt you'll get back with some failed attempt to redeem yourself.

It's really hard to fail when the person you're addressing has absolutely no clue what they're talking about. I'm sure you've many more ideas in your head that are outright wrong but I'll certainly be sure to dodge the next thread you make on them!

I'm sure the above will "go in one ear and out the next", you're fairly dead set on having a rant at all costs, even if it makes no sense. You should consider a blog though, that way there'd be nobody to step in with facts and you know, correct you or "harsh your buzz".

LighterGuy

quietriot wrote: »

Yes, but it's pretty clear you don't, and not for the first time today



You do realise that those are attempts to protect people's rights, right? They're not just trying to impose on your freedom, man, or trying to "harsh your buzz", they're in reaction to be abusing the freedom they have to access material online.

The issues with SOPA is that it's over the top and gives private corporations power that they shouldn't be given, NOT that the base of it imposes on your individual freedom. It has the potential to damage our individual freedom, but is not created for that purpose.

It's clear that action is needed to protect the rights of the creations of individuals, the answers proposed aren't the solution but it will be implemented in some way and rightfully so. If I create something, it is my creation and I have rights associated with it. You are not free to infringe on those rights. Do you see how that works? Or are you against rights now? Because if you are, I'm sure you'd be thrilled to see your rights removed to increase the "freedom" of others.

I mean, I'm sure there's no point really, it's clear that you've got a few buzz terms and you're dead set on ranting about them.

What is the household charge restricting you from doing? Nothing, it affects your personal freedom in no way, but hey, don't let that stand in the way of your illogical little rant. Use that soapbox sir, get it off your chest



They don't. Try reading properly. My point was that prison figures reflect the fact that people can't be trusted with freedom, even that what we have now, so complete freedom will never be an option.



It's really hard to fail when the person you're addressing has absolutely no clue what they're talking about. I'm sure you've many more ideas in your head that are outright wrong but I'll certainly be sure to dodge the next thread you make on them!

I'm sure the above will "go in one ear and out the next", you're fairly dead set on having a rant at all costs, even if it makes no sense. You should consider a blog though, that way there'd be nobody to step in with facts and you know, correct you or "harsh your buzz".

Failed attempt to redeem yourself

old_aussie

LighterGuy wrote: »

For me ... . We dont make the laws. Others in power do.

I wonder who elected these people.

quietriot

LighterGuy wrote: »

Failed attempt to redeem yourself

Good argument, well done. Can't construct a well written, factual response so you merely re-iterate more of the same crap, fairly typical of someone with absolutely no knowledge of the subjects they're trying to discuss.

Go read a few books like a good lad and try to learn something, hell, maybe someday you might have some idea what you're ranting about. Otherwise it'll remain the same incoherent bullshit that you've spouted in this thread and elsewhere.

I'm surprised that you're not out on Dame St with the other crusties who can't piece together an argument. At least you'd meet some like-minded people to share your "knowledge" with

quietriot

old_aussie wrote: »

I wonder who elected these people.

Not him of course, he was too busy watching his fingers for movement that day.

TanG411

"Even liberals are conservative once they get their way. "

LighterGuy

quietriot wrote: »

Good argument, well done. Can't construct a well written, factual response so you merely re-iterate more of the same crap, fairly typical of someone with absolutely no knowledge of the subjects they're trying to discuss.

Go read a few books like a good lad and try to learn something, hell, maybe someday you might have some idea what you're ranting about. Otherwise it'll remain the same incoherent bullshit that you've spouted in this thread and elsewhere.

I'm surprised that you're not out on Dame St with the other crusties who can't piece together an argument. At least you'd meet some like-minded people to share your "knowledge" with

Lighterguy - 1 ..... quietriot - 0

Come on, I can do this all night

Bullchomper

Existentially - yes.
Realistically - no.

quietriot

LighterGuy wrote: »

Lighterguy - 1 ..... quietriot - 0

Come on, I can do this all night

Oh I'm sure you can, I'd be fairly certain you don't have college or a job to go to tomorrow.

You're not even reading the replies, just bashing at your keyboard in an attempt to feel good about yourself, just as you did when writing the original post. It's a shame that some people make it to adulthood so ignorant, but there you go, you're a marketers dream.

Havermeyer

In order to be free, you must give up 10% of your freedom.

Stereomaniac

Drink the Kool-Aid.

5starpool

I've only skimmed the thread, but I'm impressed it hasn't been taken over by 'freemen' nutjobs who don't recognise the courts or guards as having any actual authority.

Jesus Wept

When your birth cert is filed, this is when your legal person is created, it's not you physically but if you appear in court or a garda stops you, they will try to get you to tether yourself to this legal person so that they can enforce 'laws'.

I say 'laws' because they are not actually laws, they are invitations to treat/contract and are not actually enforceable.

On another note, if you need to take a dump in the street, a police man must give you his hat.



how did i do?

AlmightyCushion

The-Rigger wrote: »

When your birth cert is filed, this is when your legal person is created, it's not you physically but if you appear in court or a garda stops you, they will try to get you to tether yourself to this legal person so that they can enforce 'laws'.

I say 'laws' because they are not actually laws, they are invitations to treat/contract and are not actually enforceable.

On another note, if you need to take a dump in the street, a police man must give you his hat.



how did i do?

I'd rather he gave me some toilet paper.

Kirby

Depends on what way you look at it. If you choose to live as part of a society and all the benefits it brings, than you have to abide by its rules. So no, you don't have complete freedom.

But If that society tries to impose rules that are idiotic and you don't agree with them, you are however free to leave that society and join another. People do it all the time. We call it immigration.

The laws differ quite alot from country to country. Hell, even from state to state in the same country. Whats illegal one is fine in another. I suppose you are free to choose which one suits you best. Although I suppose you might have to jump through hoops to be allowed to join it.

Shiroki

quietriot wrote: »

Oh I'm sure you can, I'd be fairly certain you don't have college or a job to go to tomorrow.

You're not even reading the replies, just bashing at your keyboard in an attempt to feel good about yourself, just as you did when writing the original post. It's a shame that some people make it to adulthood so ignorant, but there you go, you're a marketers dream.

I agree with a lot of your points, but honestly, there's no need to be so smug and patronizing towards other posters. It's unpleasant to read and very ****ing rude.

biko

quietriot and LighterGuy, chill the jets

Stiffler2

Of course we have freedom
















just like they had freedom in Soviet Russia

Teyla Emmagan

Of course not, there is no such thing as complete freedom. Not if you choose to live inside of society anyway. If you owned your own mountain and decided to live up there as a hermit, in a cave, then maybe you could be free.

I bet that would get tired pretty fast though.

Voodoo_rasher

what freedom? We willingly make ourselves bank-slaves,bitches by yoking

ourselves

(some of us) up to life-expectancy mortgages haha!

&


G o l d m a n 'Sucks And the R o t s c h i l d s determine your quality of living here now.

Davyhal

Sl!mCharles wrote: »

Freedom to make choices as long as we make the right ones!!!

Haha, this just brought me back to the Lisbon Treaty all over again!

Ireland in the 50's, you were free to starve and die.
Ireland today.........you will be charged to starve and die.:D

AngryBollix

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diYAc7gB-0A

Agricola

Freedom compared to what............a North Korean?

bleg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism


You're controlled by the neurotransmitters in your brain!

bnt

This is another case of people not knowing enough about History. Years ago there was a Frontier, land not under the control of any government, where you could go if you were dissatisfied with the way you were being "controlled" by your governments. In South Africa, in the 1830s, the Boers started the "Groot Trek" ("Big Pull") in response to rule by the British over the Cape. In the USA it was the "West", of course, and it attracted immigrants from many countries, including Ireland.

As long as you live in an established country, with fixed borders, you are not free. The question I have is: if I had the option of hitting a Frontier, would I want to? I would lose the support of government along with the shackles. But I don't have the option, since the world is nearly full.