Ticking/Clicking in radiator or pipes driving me mad.

TheChevron

I have the heating set to come on in the mornings, about a half an hour before I get up, but I've had to stop it recently as there is an extremely loud ticking/clicking/tapping sound.

It starts off fast, say once a second, and gradually gets slower, once every 5 seconds. Once the heating has been on for a while it goes away.

Its like someone is tapping on the radiator with a spanner.

It happens on a few radiators in the house, but not to the extent of my bedroom radiator, which is right beside be and is better than any alarm clock.

Can anyone tell me what's causing it and what can be done to fix it?

Billy Bunting

Expansion and contraction.

Not a lot you can do about it now, IF its just from a rad then you can get plastic clips for the rad brackets, these should have been fitted on installation, if its in pipework it can be very difficult to find, ever tried earplugs

TheChevron

Ah don't say that.

What are these clips you speak of and where are they located on the rad?

Billy Bunting

You wont see them, especially if you have none but at the back of the rad there are 2/3 brackets that hold the rad, between the rad and the bracket there should be a small plastic clip, you could try your local plumbers mechant for them.

heinbloed

The solution can't be more simple: keep the temperature in the system.
For example with the aid of a modulating boiler.

Billy Bunting's advise (or comment)

Not a lot you can do about it now,

is wrong.

Talcum powder on the resting points/brackets ("clips") will reduce the noise as well.

Billy Bunting

heinbloed wrote: »

Talcum powder on the resting points/brackets ("clips") will reduce the noise as well.

Well if thats all youve got, thats not a lot. :rolleyes:

gdavis

it seems from the post that it is only a recent occurence so id say a bit of investigation would sort out problem,i.e something has started it so can be fixed as easily

TheChevron

I should have said, its been there from the start. The house is 2 years old. I only recently started setting the timer so didn't notice the noise as much as I never had it on early in the morning.

The noise would wake you up. Anything to reduce the noise, even partially, would be welcome.

heinbloed

What type of boiler is installed, model, minimum and maximum output?

sullzz

heinbloed wrote: »

What type of boiler is installed, model, minimum and maximum output?

Knowing that wont help whatsoever, the problem is more than likely as billy bunting already said expansion and contraction due to the little white clips missing off the brackets or the pipework too tight to joists ( joists not notched enough or qualpex clipped to the joists ) or could be the pipe coming up to the rad too tight to the hole drilled in the floorboard. Chances are your going to have to live with it.

heinbloed

There won't be any expansion and contraction with a well designed heating system as long as the heating is turned on.

What the OP is describing are the effects of a badly designed heating system.

It's not only the noise but the reduced life time and the increasing failures of the heating system which is contributed to by expansion and contraction.

A well designed heating system keeps the temperature as well as the pressure steady. The boiler's output and the pump's capacity modulating according to demand = no noise problem.

Therefore it is of uppermost importance to know the boiler type and model, a modern boiler/CH system offers plenty of features to avoid the problem described by the OP.
And the OP speaks of a 2 year old house/ central heating system.....

There is a good chance that the described problem can be solved with the correct setting on the boiler/controls within a minute. By the owner/operator.

Billy Bunting

Amazing how the mind can work. :rolleyes:

heinbloed wrote: »

What the OP is describing are the effects of a badly designed heating system.

.

It's just a badly installed system, change the boiler!!! your havin a laf!!

gdavis

have u floorboards in the house that u can take up easily to access pipework?if so,u may have a chance of sorting it out.Heinbloed u are way off,AGAIN

sullzz

heinbloed wrote: »

There won't be any expansion and contraction with a well designed heating system as long as the heating is turned on.

What the OP is describing are the effects of a badly designed heating system.

It's not only the noise but the reduced life time and the increasing failures of the heating system which is contributed to by expansion and contraction.

A well designed heating system keeps the temperature as well as the pressure steady. The boiler's output and the pump's capacity modulating according to demand = no noise problem.

Therefore it is of uppermost importance to know the boiler type and model, a modern boiler/CH system offers plenty of features to avoid the problem described by the OP.
And the OP speaks of a 2 year old house/ central heating system.....

There is a good chance that the described problem can be solved with the correct setting on the boiler/controls within a minute. By the owner/operator.

So what your saying is that the homeowner could sort out the noise problems
within a minute through the boiler and controls , no need to go near any pipework , rads , floorbards , and no need for a plumber , ive never heard so much rubbish information , do you have any on the job plumbing/heating experiance , a lot of the info you give people seems to be quotes and links from websites.

freddyuk

Do you have any plastic(qualpex) in the system? Plastic pipes expand dramatically with any heat and will squeak through tight holes in joists and walls. Copper will also but nowhere near as much as plastic.
Radiator brackets should have plastic inserts which prevent any problems with the radiator itself. (but they never get fitted as said)
So is the noise from the pipes or the rad? Hold your hand on the pipe and you should feel if it is binding as it expands.
Talc is good and also silicone spray but it is only ever temporary if you can get it into the problem area.
Check where the pipe goes into the wall or floor.

theboyhurley

Did you manage to tone down the noise from the rad with any of the recommendations?
I have the same issue.
My bedroom rad ticks (you could also call it a dripping sound) firstly as it starts to heat (my 6.30am wake up call) and again when the heat is turned off.

Did you manage to fit those plastic inserts? Any good?

anheneti

sullzz wrote: »

Knowing that wont help whatsoever, the problem is more than likely as billy bunting already said expansion and contraction due to the little white clips missing off the brackets or the pipework too tight to joists ( joists not notched enough or qualpex clipped to the joists ) or could be the pipe coming up to the rad too tight to the hole drilled in the floorboard. Chances are your going to have to live with it.

you are probably right but joists should never be notched

anheneti

heinbloed wrote: »

What type of boiler is installed, model, minimum and maximum output?

you seem to always mention heating engineers, what are they?
how do they differ from plumbers?

sullzz

anheneti wrote: »

you are probably right but joists should never be notched

Joists can be notched , if done within the correct manner , there are guidelines to work with , how would you pipe a house otherwise if qualpex was not wanted , i did work for a builder who would not let qualpex near the site and this was a scheme of about 300 houses , how would you suggest i could have 1st fixed these houses without notching the joists.

sullzz

anheneti wrote: »

you seem to always mention heating engineers, what are they?
how do they differ from plumbers?

I cant wait for this reply :D

dm1388

sullzz wrote: »

Joists can be notched , if done within the correct manner , there are guidelines to work with , how would you pipe a house otherwise if qualpex was not wanted , i did work for a builder who would not let qualpex near the site and this was a scheme of about 300 houses , how would you suggest i could have 1st fixed these houses without notching the joists.

what was the builders problem with qualpex? i have come across one or two clients with this issue and none of them could answer me.

Was it copper or gb used?

sullzz

dm1388 wrote: »

what was the builders problem with qualpex? i have come across one or two clients with this issue and none of them could answer me.

Was it copper or gb used?

The builder was just pure old school , he didnt trust qualpex , he was building for many years before qualpex or acorn was introduced and didnt want to change his ways , but still wanted to keep up with the speed the other builders were turning over their houses .
it was a pain doing the apartments in copper , the company i worked for wanted the heating from the boiler ran to the hotpress in 1" copper then split there for the h/w and rads , from there the rad circuit flow and return ran in 1" and the drops to the rads done in 3/4" copper then reduced to 1/2" before it came out of the wall , and all this in a counter battoned ceiling :mad: .

heinbloed

@ the OP:

Some mentioned here in the thread that the "clips" could cause the noise problem.

If that is the case ( I doubt it, such incompetence wasn't seen even in high times of the building boom) you have a guarantee case. Get to your builder/installer and demand a proper installation, the first one was never correctly done - if "clips" had been used. Clips should not be used for the fixing of water pipes.

Use brackets instead.



OT @ anheneti:

A heating engineer knows where to use brackets.

anheneti

OT @ anheneti:

A heating engineer knows where to use brackets.[/QUOTE]

I asked what is a heating engineer?
and how do they differ from plumbers?

I definitely didn't ask about some vague rambling about brackets

dm1388

sullzz wrote: »

The builder was just pure old school , he didnt trust qualpex , he was building for many years before qualpex or acorn was introduced and didnt want to change his ways , but still wanted to keep up with the speed the other builders were turning over their houses .
it was a pain doing the apartments in copper , the company i worked for wanted the heating from the boiler ran to the hotpress in 1" copper then split there for the h/w and rads , from there the rad circuit flow and return ran in 1" and the drops to the rads done in 3/4" copper then reduced to 1/2" before it came out of the wall , and all this in a counter battoned ceiling :mad: .

one word "hardship"

heinbloed

@ anheneti:

Try English, open a new thread.

This tread is about a badly installed CH system, causing noises. Read it.

anheneti

heinbloed wrote: »

@ anheneti:

Try English, open a new thread.

This tread is about a badly installed CH system, causing noises. Read it.

Still no answer?

Billy Bunting

heinbloed wrote: »

I doubt it, such incompetence wasn't seen even in high times of the building boom.

You’ve once again excelled yourself with the total rubbish your spouting on these boards, with such a statement as above you make it abundantly clear that you know nothing about the basics of heating or the simple faults that often occur, this IMO is probably due to you not being able to find anything applicable on the internet, you have no practical experience of plumbing and heating in the real world, here in Ireland, its all Heinbloed world, which really isn't our world, would you not find Command and Conquer in the Games Forum more to your liking.

sky6

It could be as simple as the Pump Speed being to high. Especially if it disappears as the Boiler heats up.

paddy147

heinbloed wrote: »

@ anheneti:

Try English, open a new thread.

This tread is about a badly installed CH system, causing noises. Read it.

You should try using the "english" language and learn how to spell.

Are you going to answer the question regarding a heating engineer and a plumber,or not???:rolleyes:

sullzz

heinbloed wrote: »

@ the OP:

Some mentioned here in the thread that the "clips" could cause the noise problem.

If that is the case ( I doubt it, such incompetence wasn't seen even in high times of the building boom) you have a guarantee case. Get to your builder/installer and demand a proper installation, the first one was never correctly done - if "clips" had been used. Clips should not be used for the fixing of water pipes.

Use brackets instead.



OT @ anheneti:

A heating engineer knows where to use brackets.

So what your saying is that this person should demand to have his house replumbed if clips were used to secure any of his pipes , this would involve totaly gutting his house ......... Heinbloed , you are a genius you just solved the jobs crisis in ireland single handedly , i would say that almost every 2nd house/apt built in ireland in the last 15 years would have pipes clipped with nail on clips , i can hold my hand up and say that i have used them , if i was first fixing a house and was seen scewing brackets along joists and down studs id have been ran off site .
im now convinced that you have no plumbing experience whatsoever , also id like to see one of your links stating that nail on clips should not be used for pipework.
im getting a bit nervous now i cant believe im going to have to go back to a few thousand houses and replumb them free of charge .

anheneti

heinbloed wrote: »

@ anheneti:

Try English, open a new thread.

This tread is about a badly installed CH system, causing noises. Read it.

I am still waiting for my answer

anthonyos

put felt under the pipe were they are in contact with the timber

whizbang

OP - as a temp solution, turn down the pump thermostat (if fitted) down as low as practical.
It will start the flow at a much lower temperature and reduce the sudden temp rise in the pipes. (which is the cause of the noise)
It will reduce the efficiency of the boiler a small bit, but you wouldn't even see it in your wallet.
otherwise, as per Anthony, pull up all your flooring and felt everywhere

KoolKid

heinbloed wrote: »

@ anheneti:

Try English, open a new thread.

This tread is about a badly installed CH system, causing noises. Read it.

Enough of the attitude.
I am sick of listening to complaints from other users here who are trying to be helpful.
I'm giving an infraction for this,
Condesending bad attitude and/or back seat modding (Its not your place to tell anyone to start a new thread) Take your pick.

paddy147

paddy147 wrote: »

Are you going to answer the question regarding a heating engineer and a plumber,or not???:rolleyes:

Most of the time when himself recommends a heating engineer is when trying to determining the heat requirement of a property to size a boiler.

In the Uk the installer and even plumbers :eek: would have to do this calculation to give the KW heating requirement of the property to size the boiler, the has to be within a given KW tolerance as required by Part L of the building regs.

It is not enforced here and I have never seen it done here, so directing posters to a heating engineer may not work as well as he hopes.

JohnnieK

gary71 wrote: »

Most of the time when himself recommends a heating engineer is when trying to determining the heat requirement of a property to size a boiler.

In the Uk the installer and even plumbers :eek: would have to do this calculation to give the KW heating requirement of the property to size the boiler, the has to be within a given KW tolerance as required by Part L of the building regs.

It is not enforced here and I have never seen it done here, so directing posters to a heating engineer may not work as well as he hopes.

Ah some of us do it Gary :D

This calculation may be different as it would be similar to a BER cert where you use the size of a house and the U-values of the windows, walls, roof etc,,,, to determine the heat loss= heat requirement.

whizbang

Love to know where in the BER does it calculate the occupants heat requirements.:rolleyes:
in the outlaws house today i'd have given her an A rating. Zero heat requirement. Had to kidnap somebodys kids just for an excuse to to McDonalds to warm up.

I'v done UK PartL calculations to work out the heat requirement for boiler installs but i'v never done a BER, i'v been told by those that do BER that it's not for boiler sizing, which I find a shame as it wouldn't be that hard to use the information they have gathered for their cert to give this information.

heinbloed

Strange that none of the posters (some claim to be in the trade of plumbing) has referred to the correct installation details of CH systems. These standards are there to avoid this ticking/clicking the OP experiences.

Some material choice here, legal stuff, fire rated and allowed for pressurised systems etc.:

http://www.hilti.com/holcom/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?lang=de&nodeId=-14501

and for waste water pipes

http://www.hilti.com/holcom/page/module/product/prca_rangedetail.jsf?&nodeId=-14502&selProdOid=14129

Sure there is a good choice out there from various manufacturers. Ask a heating engineer.

DGOBS

Agreed, there is a huge number of excellent installation items out there to buy and use, getting a customer or developer to pay for the use of them is entirely another thing.

If I priced any job using items as you suggest, I would have no hope of getting the job, even when replacing boilers customer argue over €50 against other quotes using no-so-good boilers, let alone paying for these brackets (every problem has an over priced solution)

I see your back to the opinion your not allowed to use plastic clips in central heating pipes, your wrong, and your interpretation of that EU directive is wrong, time to drop that one eh?

DGOBS

And just for you......the ONLY standard available in Ireland (and still a work in progress) SR50

Extracted: From Noise Considerations

4.6.3.1 General
Except for fire fighting installations and subject to appropriate regulations, all systems shall be designed and installed to ensure that noise generation is kept to a minimum.
To help prevent noise, pipework should be adequately supported and not come into direct contact with parts of the structure or other pipes, except for when it is fixed to the structure using appropriate brackets, if contact with the structure cannot be avoided then appropriate insulating pads should be used at the contact points. Pipework should not be fixed to light panels. .Further Guidance is available in BS 8233, Sound Insulation and Noise Reduction for Buildings Code of Practice.
Vibration is the usual source of noise from pipework and apart from being an annoyance; it can ultimately cause damage to pipework and fittings.
4.6.3.2 Water hammer
Water hammer is usually caused by the abrupt closing of a valve. It can also be caused by defective or incorrectly specified ball cocks and tap washers. The issue is made worse if the cold water supply pipework is not properly secured. Occasionally it can be cured by reducing the flow velocity in the pipework. Alternatively, appropriate shock absorbers may be fitted. Water hammer noise is exacerbated by inadequately supported pipework.
4.6.3.3 Flow velocity noise
At liquid velocities of over 3 metres per second pipework noise can become significant so steps should be taken to ensure that, while maintaining adequate flow, this velocity is not reached. This can be accomplished by increasing pipe diameter or fitting appropriate flow restrictors. Particularly for cisterns, splashing noise may also be an issue. Subject to water supplier approval, this may be tackled by ballcocks fitted with appropriate silence tubes that prevent reverse flow.
4.6.3.4 Expansion noise
Expansion noise comes from the expansion of the pipework system as it expands and contracts when it is thermally stressed. Care should be taken with brackets to ensure the pipework is free to move along its axis while still providing the required support. Adequate bracketing and pads between pipes and fittings and other surfaces should alleviate the problem. In long pipe runs, expansion can best be accommodated by expansion loops or propriety expansion joints.
4.6.3.5 Flow rate noise
Subject also to flow velocity recommendations in 4.6.3.3, the flow rate in small bore pipework should not exceed 1 litre per second.
4.6.3.6 Components
As it can be transmitted easily through the pipework system, noise and vibrations from pumps and other equipment connected to the system should be kept to a minimum. Official Regulations on maximum noise levels should be followed. Laboratory tests for such equipment are described in I.S. EN ISO 3822-1, I.S. EN ISO 3822-2, I.S. EN ISO 3822-3 and I.S. EN ISO 3822-4.

JohnnieK

Tony when I got the notification that some one had posted I seen the big long post you left and I said, where is he going with all that:D:D. I then seen the post left by himself and my question was answered:D.

By the way. To clear up something for himself officially there is no such thing as heating engineers in this country. A Mechanical engineer or a building services engineer are the one's that design heating systems in this country and the installers are the one's who install it and point out there mistakes:D.

I wonder which of the above he is and if none why is a lay man giving so called advice/ recommendations.

He has never come forward to answer this question.

DGOBS

Yeah, maybe I should have just given a link!