Secular Buddhism

gnu

Hi everyone,

I was wondering if anyone else is interested in secular Buddhism? It's also called agnostic Buddhism but hey, lets not get too bogged down with labels! It's an approach I feel is very helpful to me and I've been guided by Stephen and Martine Batchelor (amongst others).

If there are others interested, I might look at setting up a sitting group in Dublin where we can meditate together, listen to a Dharma talk and have a discussion over a cuppa.

So if this sounds like something you'd be interested in, please let me know (by PM or post here).

Or if you're curious to know more about it, please let me know and I'll see what I can dig out. Stephen Batchelor's Buddhism without Beliefs will give you a good idea of the approach.

Gary L

I'm interested but woefully under-informed so if you'd like to be my secular guru that could work. Not living in dublin though. I'd be very interested in any guidance you can offer on meditation techniques.

conor.hogan.2

Buddhism not being a religion would not have a secular aspect to it really - if you are not a monk they you would be secular in a way I suppose.

In this context it would just be a group to have discussions with which is always a good idea if you can get eneough people to justify the organization and cost.

Ted Meissner

There are lots of us who are interested in secular Buddhism, and you can find us at SecularBuddhism.org -- hope to see you there!

Col.

Very interested in this idea, will PM Gnu.

gnu

Great to hear from you all!

So far I've had 2 PMs from people interested. I've never organised anything like this before so if anyone has thoughts/ideas/suggestions/advice please go right ahead and jump in.

Here's some of my thoughts:
How many people would we need to get this started?

What kind of location would we go for?
I guess it would depend on proposed activities.
What do we want to do? I was thinking maybe meet to discuss something we're reading, listen to a talk/podcast, meditate, discuss stuff, drink tea/eat biccies or some combination of same. We could easily have readings/disccusions in coffee shops but if we want to listen to talks and meditate we'd need a little privacy.
I live near Dundrum and could possibly host it in my house if that might suit? It's a bit chaotic at the moment but it's a possibility to keep in mind.

Gary L wrote: »

I'm interested but woefully under-informed so if you'd like to be my secular guru that could work. Not living in dublin though. I'd be very interested in any guidance you can offer on meditation techniques.

*picks up guru hat and looks at it doubtfully, tries it on and discovers it's a bad fit and doesn't suit me* I'm no guru Gary but if you'll settle for a dharma friend trying to figure it all out as I go along that could work! Have you done any meditation before? I can PM you with some guidance and resources that have served me well.

Ted, I've already found your website and subscribed to the podcast - thank you!

coffee_cake

i don't really understand what you think the difference between this and general buddhism is? can you summarise

conor.hogan.2

bluewolf wrote: »

i don't really understand what you think the difference between this and general buddhism is? can you summarise

I imagine (not to speak for them) is they think people in the west practice really strict monk style buddhism from films/pop culture and think of it as a religion in the western sense.

Or it could be some nonsense similar to eckhart tolle.

rob1976

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

bluewolf wrote: »

i don't really understand what you think the difference between this and general buddhism is? can you summarise

I imagine (not to speak for them) is they think people in the west practice really strict monk style buddhism from films/pop culture and think of it as a religion in the western sense.

Or it could be some nonsense similar to eckhart tolle.

A lot of Buddhism in the west is full of the trappings of Asian culture, with bits of older religions tacked on ( such as reincarnation).

It would be like telling Asians they can only celebrate the Christmas by eating turkey.

Secular Buddhism strips this away, looks at the actual teaching of the Buddha, without the supernatural superstitions.

It is more of a philosophy than a religion.

I am no expert, just interested in this approach.

18AD

rob1976 wrote: »

Secular Buddhism strips this away, looks at the actual teaching of the Buddha, without the supernatural superstitions.

Zen Buddhism?

At least that's very close to the description of it in Essays on Zen Buddhism by Suzuki.

Although, it does have it's own approach.

coffee_cake

do you mean you gut parts of it to take some of the philosophy and turn it into the usual self help stuff?

i view buddhism in general as pretty secular tbh considering there is no need for gods or their worship (regardless of whether they exist or not), and you don't worship the buddha himself
the main thing i suppose would be the issue of rebirth which is more of a faith matter, although im not sure what conclusion to draw when you are following teachings on the cessation of rebirth when you don't believe in it in the first place

conor.hogan.2

Zen and most forms of Buddhism do retain a lot of eastern history, but they do not make it a religion.

This secular Buddhism smells of self help or even worse echart tolle type stuff.

On the rebirth thing there is some interesting thoughts on that in some sects. For example I think Zen does not believe in the transmigration of the "soul".

Zen even retains a lot from its roots, obviously, but these things are not important to the central point of it. To get bogged down in them kind of defeats the purpose.

coffee_cake

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

Zen and most forms of Buddhism do retain a lot of eastern history, but they do not make it a religion.

This secular Buddhism smells of self help or even worse echart tolle type stuff.

On the rebirth thing there is some interesting thoughts on that in some sects. For example I think Zen does not believe in the transmigration of the "soul".

Zen even retains a lot from its roots, obviously, but these things are not important to the central point of it. To get bogged down in them kind of defeats the purpose.

well of course there is no soul
I did watch a heated debate between two zen followers on the issue of rebirth. The guy who was advocating it finally said "well if you don't believe in it, why don't you go kill yourself? surely you believe that will bring you enlightenment?" :pac:

no, getting bogged down in any of it isn't a great idea, but it IS supposed to be the original point of it

Cavehill Red

I wouldn't relate to some of the definitions being offered here. I'm an atheist buddhist (certainly not agnostic) and would relate to what I've heard called elsewhere 'pragmatic buddhism' by Bachelor, who I believe is an avowed atheist too nowadays.
I certainly consider my beliefs and practices to be a religion. Religions do not require deities. There is a distinct difference between this and, say, the works of Schopenhauer or existentialism.
Anyhow, I'm interested to know more and will be following this thread with interest.

bou

On setting up a group, go slowly and carefully.
It can take years for a group to become properly established. You probably need 5 very committed people to start with and they would need to have the time and easy commute to chosen location. Renting a space for one evening a week could work. You might want storage space for equipment - books, hifi, cushions... Don't over-commit or over-stretch your capacity.

On secular buddhism, I haven't a clue. If it's not following the teachings of the Buddha, it's not really buddhism. Of course, there are varying points of view of what constitutes the teachings of the Buddha. Also, following the teachings is a gradually developing relationship which involves listening, contemplation, practicing, and checking with an experienced practitioner. Gradually, one gets deeper into the meaning of the teachings and one becomes more confident of their truth.

The Four Noble Truths is a basic part of the Buddha's teachings. Some kind of reincarnation is part of that as is karma.

Taking refuge in the 3 Jewels, Buddha, Dharma and Sangha is also a central part of buddhism. It's about overcoming ego-clinging.

Something on commonly agreed points on Buddhism: in wikipedia

Col.

"This secular Buddhism smells of self help or even worse echart tolle type stuff."

That's funny, would you prefer the scent of self improvement then? What are you in this for if not to be a more content person, perhaps also an aspiring view toward the betterment of society generally. Care to define your standards of self help?

I have the vaguest idea of who Tolle is, far as I know some regard him highly. Touting hostility like that gives an impression of churlishness or worse Buddhist snobbery.

I don't like the instant fix versions of philosophy touted by so many; but that doesn't make them wrong, nor would I decry them as an access point to more profound teachings.

conor.hogan.2

bluewolf wrote: »

well of course there is no soul
I did watch a heated debate between two zen followers on the issue of rebirth. The guy who was advocating it finally said "well if you don't believe in it, why don't you go kill yourself? surely you believe that will bring you enlightenment?" :pac:

no, getting bogged down in any of it isn't a great idea, but it IS supposed to be the original point of it

Well other sects of Buddhism do believe in actual rebirth, afaik. Good point at the end, a different way to look at it.

Col. wrote: »

but that doesn't make them wrong, nor would I decry them as an access point to more profound teachings.

I never called it wrong. I just don't see the difference between this and any other form of Buddhism except striping out all the history of Buddhism. Of course whatever people want to do is up to them in the end.

bou

About traditions and cultural trappings, much/most of it is there for a reason. The cultural trappings can be taken at a superficial and ordinary level where they are more like superstition but they also hold a deeper meaning where they serve as tools to transform our minds and perception beyond the ordinary ones we are normally trapped in.

Even leaving buddhist traditions aside, we ourselves come already kitted out with a vast array of cultural trappings, traditions and ways of perceiving. Much/most of this serves to keep us trapped in the cycle of samsara.

Another aspect of tradition is the transmission of realisation from master to student. Without the guidance of someone with realisation, it is easy to fall into traps and be caught up in ego's subtle mis-perceptions. A wise guide can see how we need to transform and let go. Without the master, all the trappings are just trappings and maybe also traps.

The wise guidance of those who have realisation is part of what constitutes sangha, one of the Three Jewels.

coffee_cake

what trappings and traditions exactly are being dropped here?

Col.

bou wrote: »

About traditions and cultural trappings, much/most of it is there for a reason. The cultural trappings can be taken at a superficial and ordinary level where they are more like superstition but they also hold a deeper meaning where they serve as tools to transform our minds and perception beyond the ordinary ones we are normally trapped in.

Even leaving buddhist traditions aside, we ourselves come already kitted out with a vast array of cultural trappings, traditions and ways of perceiving. Much/most of this serves to keep us trapped in the cycle of samsara.

Another aspect of tradition is the transmission of realisation from master to student. Without the guidance of someone with realisation, it is easy to fall into traps and be caught up in ego's subtle mis-perceptions. A wise guide can see how we need to transform and let go. Without the master, all the trappings are just trappings and maybe also traps.

The wise guidance of those who have realisation is part of what constitutes sangha, one of the Three Jewels.

Bou, that's shocking diatribe. Not to mention contradictory; cultural trappings as transmission vs. cultural trappings of samsara.

I am sorry if this sounds like an assault - but that master waffle is exactly the kind of obsequious jargon we don't need. The Buddha taught about living in the present, try that instead.

conor.hogan.2

Agreed this is going nowhere and is not helpful.

The ends goals are the same.

gnu

bluewolf wrote: »

i don't really understand what you think the difference between this and general buddhism is? can you summarise

Great question and sorry I haven't been around to answer - have managed to injure my arm and can't type/click/scroll much now.

But I'll be back ... looks like it has already been thrashed out though.

Thanks to everyone for your input!

Cork24

Dharma is a way of life, to understand the Buddha teachings its best to read on Tibetan Buddhism and Zen Buddhism both have a different type of teaching,

Tibetan is more on life and death...

Zen is more about the present time and how we can benefit from our life's living in the present mind frame

bou

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend or insult etc.
I simply wanted to make a comment about traditions and their meanings; that they aren't necessarily just cultural extras. I wanted to make the point because it was mentioned earlier about dropping all the cultural baggage.

Indeed, it was probably out of place in this topic which was about setting up a group around secular buddhism. I don't want to detract from that in any way.

Col., I have tried living in the present but it's not easy. I am assailed by perceptions and notions which throw me into the past and future constantly. Even when I think I'm being present, I'm not sure if it's me thinking I'm being present rather than being present. I hope one day we may all be present.

obsequious jargon - I reach for the dictionary. Yes, I do have a fawning attachment to words. Words are symbols, representations of conceptual meaning. Concepts are ambiguous since they do not match reality. Words and concepts can serve to release as well as serve to trap. Not just words but culture too. Culture is a kind of language.

I'm getting lost in verbal manure!

I go for refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.

May we be freed from attachment to verbiage and go sit still for a while and find the present moment (if only for a moment).