Croatia votes to join EU 66%:33%

Scofflaw

Again, not really a surprise:

Near complete results from Croatia's referendum on European Union membership suggest that a large majority of people want to join the EU in 2013.

With nearly 99% of the votes counted, 66% of voters backed the membership. About 33% were against.

But officials expressed disappointment at the low turnout of about 44%.

Croatia signed an EU accession treaty last year and should join in July 2013, once all 27 existing members of the union have ratified the deal.

In addition, Montenegro, another former Yugoslav republic, will start entry negotiations in June, while Serbia will hear in March whether the EU has accepted its application for candidacy.

It should also mean the famous "Protocol on the Concerns of the Irish People" will now be tagged onto the EU treaties.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Lockstep

That's great, with Slovenia and now Croatia on board, it'll be great to welcome the Balkan countries into the EU.

FreudianSlippers

That's great news. I still have some concerns regarding Serbia though.

adamski8

Scofflaw wrote: »

Again, not really a surprise:

alot of people think it is surprising and saying how the polls were fixed is what im hearing. quite a strong anti eu sentiment there. online polls were showing 60% against last week. guess the catholic church supporting the yes campain had something to do with it.
low turn out too, think alot of people leaning toward no didnt vote as they thought theyd get 'lisboned' into it. thats my impression anyway

thebman

adamski8 wrote: »

alot of people think it is surprising and saying how the polls were fixed is what im hearing. quite a strong anti eu sentiment there. online polls were showing 60% against last week. guess the catholic church supporting the yes campain had something to do with it.
low turn out too, think alot of people leaning toward no didnt vote as they thought theyd get 'lisboned' into it. thats my impression anyway

Online polls aren't accurate or atari jaguar's would rule the world.

scumbag brain

I am Croatian and we have voted "yes".


What do you mean, will Croatia benefit from EU?

Our economy is bad right now, we do not have any industry. But we have great turism. Every year we have more and more turists from all around the world.

FreudianSlippers

I'm more likely to visit Croatia as EU members to be honest.

scumbag brain

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm more likely to visit Croatia as EU members to be honest.

I thought so

Our eurosceptics are afraid that many immigrants will arrive from Bulgaria and Romaina, becouse this is how our coast looks like

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-4Ju8wOiDXRQ/TaO5Kr3-f4I/AAAAAAAAAAU/0XVQiCUyUP8/s1600/hrvatska-obala.jpg

we have more than 1000 islands. So they will probably want to work in our hotels.

So I am, now, browsing all english speaking boards in EU, to see what people think about us.
British think that we are baggers, and parasites, and criminals

FreudianSlippers

scumbag brain wrote: »

British think that we are baggers, and parasites, and criminals

They think the same thing about us in fairness

scumbag brain

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

They think the same thing about us in fairness

I know they do They all say that irish and croats are the same Drink bear, have fun, screw the universe

meglome

adamski8 wrote: »

alot of people think it is surprising and saying how the polls were fixed is what im hearing. quite a strong anti eu sentiment there. online polls were showing 60% against last week. guess the catholic church supporting the yes campain had something to do with it.
low turn out too, think alot of people leaning toward no didnt vote as they thought theyd get 'lisboned' into it. thats my impression anyway

Lisboned? that when you get a second chance to vote no?

Mike 1972

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

That's great news. I still have some concerns regarding Serbia though.

Why so ?

They may have done some pretty badass stuff during the 1990's but the Croats werent exactly above reproach either even though the Western media seemed to overlook this quite a bit.

The past excesses of Spain, Greece, Italy and Germany or their (then) recent status as dictatorships werent held against them at the time of their applications for membership.

amacachi

meglome wrote: »

Lisboned? that when you get a second chance to vote no?

I would've starved to death before I was 4 if my parents hadn't Lisboned me hundreds of times.

shanered

Lest we not forget Britain!

FreudianSlippers

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Why so ?

They may have done some pretty badass stuff during the 1990's but the Croats werent exactly above reproach either even though the Western media seemed to overlook this quite a bit.

The past excesses of Spain, Greece, Italy and Germany or their (then) recent status as dictatorships werent held against them at the time of their applications for membership.

It's not about what they did in the past, it's about what they're doing now. They refused to co-operate with the ICTY and extradite war criminals (although they have captured the last one in August last and say they will co-operate now; so this point is slightly old by a few months), they refuse to recognise Kosovo and they have not completed their Stabilisation Tracking Mechanism with Kosovo.

It's about bringing trouble into the EU now rather than actions of the past.

scumbag brain

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

It's not about what they did in the past, it's about what they're doing now. They refused to co-operate with the ICTY and extradite war criminals (although they have captured the last one in August last and say they will co-operate now; so this point is slightly old by a few months), they refuse to recognise Kosovo and they have not completed their Stabilisation Tracking Mechanism with Kosovo.

It's about bringing trouble into the EU now rather than actions of the past.

Athough I am Croatian and you know what most of us think about Serbs, I think that Kosovo problem is not that simple.
Kosovo was Serbian territory for 1000 years. Muslims came there and they were always fighting with Serbs living in their own territory. Yes, it is true that Serbs were very brutal in that conflict. So the Serbs slowly moved away, and then the muslims wanted to give that territory to Albania.
Kosovo will probably in the future become part of Albania.

So the problem is, will it be posibble possible in 100 years from now, that Turkish will want their own state in the middle of Germany, or Arabs in France, or Pakistans in England.

The Kosovo problem is not that simple as you in the West see it

Ellis Dee

Given the low voter turnout - the lowest in the history of EU accession referendums to date - what this means is that about a quarter of the Croatian electorate have voted for EU membership. The remainder are either against or indifferent. That will leave a good bit of wriggle room when the need for it arises later.

scumbag brain wrote: »

I know they do They all say that irish and croats are the same Drink bear, have fun, screw the universe

I'm always amused when commentators make such sweeping statements, indulge in over-the-top hyperbole and national stereotyping, and condescendingly describe two peoples with some similar but many dissimilar features as "the same" or "just like each other".:)

One example that comes to mind was in a book about the peoples of the then Soviet Union by a British (quelle surprise!) author whose name I can' remember.

He wrote that the Georgians were just like the Irish: masters of the inspired art of irresponsibility.:rolleyes:

well we ARE masters of the inspired art of irresponsibility in all fairness!

Scofflaw

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

well we ARE masters of the inspired art of irresponsibility in all fairness!

And how we complain when the government does anything responsible! Luckily, it's not often - that's why we don't elect Fine Gael.

cordially,
Scofflaw

meglome

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Given the low voter turnout - the lowest in the history of EU accession referendums to date - what this means is that about a quarter of the Croatian electorate have voted for EU membership. The remainder are either against or indifferent. That will leave a good bit of wriggle room when the need for it arises later.

Well no since they didn't vote they were either for it, against or indifferent. My guess would be indifferent or for it though, nothing gets people out like being against something. Of course we just don't know as they didn't vote.

RandomName2

meglome wrote: »

Well no since they didn't vote they were either for it, against or indifferent. My guess would be indifferent or for it though, nothing gets people out like being against something. Of course we just don't know as they didn't vote.

Personally I'd say it's apathy generated by the euro crisis.

eire4

Even with the mess that is the EU at the moment I would have been surprised if Croatia had voted against EU membership. The very low voter turnout at 43.6% is not a positive sign though. A record low for a country voting on EU entry.

scumbag brain

Ellis Dee wrote: »

I'm always amused when commentators make such sweeping statements, indulge in over-the-top hyperbole and national stereotyping, and condescendingly describe two peoples with some similar but many dissimilar features as "the same" or "just like each other".:)

I agree

But for English people, Croats and Irish are catholics which like to drink bear in pubs... and that is enough to describe us as "the same" :rolleyes::D

scumbag brain

eire4 wrote: »

Even with the mess that is the EU at the moment I would have been surprised if Croatia had voted against EU membership. The very low voter turnout at 43.6% is not a positive sign though. A record low for a country voting on EU entry.

There is a good reason for that. Croats don´t like liberal capitalism, but we are also aware that we can˙t be neutral as Switzerland and Norway, so it is better to stay at home and don´t vote, as many people don´t know what is good for us.

MadsL

scumbag brain wrote: »

There is a good reason for that. Croats don´t like liberal capitalism, but we are also aware that we can˙t be neutral as Switzerland and Norway, so it is better to stay at home and don´t vote, as many people don´t know what is good for us.

Have you all decided not to go to war with Slovenia over 10km of coastline; all good now??

scumbag brain

MadsL wrote: »

Have you all decided not to go to war with Slovenia over 10km of coastline; all good now??

hahaha war was never option

yes, it is now on internetional arbitral court, and both govermants signed that it will be final, as they say

Mike 1972

scumbag brain wrote: »

Kosovo was Serbian territory for 1000 years. Muslims came there and they were always fighting with Serbs living in their own territory. Yes, it is true that Serbs were very brutal in that conflict. So the Serbs slowly moved away, and then the muslims wanted to give that territory to Albania.
Kosovo will probably in the future become part of Albania.

Who held the territory 1000 years ago is pretty irrelevent really. On a 1000 year old (or even an 100 year old) map of Europe few the borders are located where they are now. Any territorial gains or losses by different ethnic groups whether they took place by fair means or foul are pretty inadmissable when they take place more than a lifetime ago.

scumbag brain wrote: »

So the problem is, will it be posibble possible in 100 years from now, that Turkish will want their own state in the middle of Germany, or Arabs in France, or Pakistans in England.

Highly unlikely given that their forebearers left Turkey/Pakistan/Wherever for a reason and they themselves will have assimilated into British/French/German society.

Ive never heard of Irish people laying territorial claims on Boston (even in the early hours of the morning during a weekend on After Hours).

scumbag brain wrote: »

The Kosovo problem is not that simple as you in the West see it

At least that bit is true.

The Serbs had a legitimate claim to parts of Kosovo (the bits with a Serb majority bordering Serbia) but foolishly overplayed their hand.

seenitall

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Who held the territory 1000 years ago is pretty irrelevent really. On a 1000 year old (or even an 100 year old) map of Europe few the borders are located where they are now. Any territorial gains or losses by different ethnic groups whether they took place by fair means or fowl are pretty inadmissable when they take place more than a lifetime ago.

Ay-ay-ay...:( Hopefully Mr Adams won't read this blasphemy.

Cluck!

player20

adamski8 wrote: »

alot of people think it is surprising and saying how the polls were fixed is what im hearing. quite a strong anti eu sentiment there. online polls were showing 60% against last week. guess the catholic church supporting the yes campain had something to do with it.
low turn out too, think alot of people leaning toward no didnt vote as they thought theyd get 'lisboned' into it. thats my impression anyway

The average turnout was 43,51%. The politicans were afraid of the EU-referendum-result and they change the law a year ago. According to the old law the referendum could only be accepted if the turnout was more than 50%. Now a referendum to be accepted it is not necessary if the most people did go to vote .As you said all relevant online polls said that there is a low EU sentiment. The most people with whom I talked about the EU subject were against or dont give much about it, I harldly know somebody who is really pro-EU.

The mass media bomb us with pro-EU propaganda and you could not find at least one article about the EU which show a little bit criticism insetad of that the journalist intervied some members of radical parties (which the most citizens never heard before) about the EU-issue in order to make an impression that only loonatics are against the EU. Our newspaper and most of all media are anti-clerical and suddenly some bishops were invated to give their opinion to the EU-refrendum, of course the Church is really pro-EU and that was one way to get as many people to say YES on the referendum (here I must warn that 60% of croats are not religious) and finally they used a supposed statement of general Gotovina in which is claimed that he would vote for the joining in the EU. Our minister of Foreign Affairs Vesna Pusić said to the pensioners if they dont vote for the EU that there will no be pensions for them (which shocked me personally somebody can say such a thing)


The most people did not vote cause they dont trust the politicians and what they are saying. They are tired of them and indiferrent to the EU-issue. For about 10 years are foreign policies is depending about what will the EU say.

player20

thebman wrote: »

Online polls aren't accurate or atari jaguar's would rule the world.

Neither are the press polls. The state TV represented us that about 55%-60% are for the EU, I really doubt.

player20

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Why so ?

They may have done some pretty badass stuff during the 1990's but the Croats werent exactly above reproach either even though the Western media seemed to overlook this quite a bit.

The past excesses of Spain, Greece, Italy and Germany or their (then) recent status as dictatorships werent held against them at the time of their applications for membership.

The war during the 90ies is really off-topic. But let in few words. Our government had not intences to do some war crimes compare to the Yugoslav government, in fact there was no genocide comited by the Croatian army. The wars crimes on croatia sied were comited by individual soldiers and most of them got into prison during the 90ies. And during 91-95 period of war there was only 194 killed civilans by the croatian amry, the serbian killed about 40 000 that is the official Hague statement.

player20

scumbag brain wrote: »

Athough I am Croatian and you know what most of us think about Serbs, I think that Kosovo problem is not that simple.
Kosovo was Serbian territory for 1000 years. Muslims came there and they were always fighting with Serbs living in their own territory. Yes, it is true that Serbs were very brutal in that conflict. So the Serbs slowly moved away, and then the muslims wanted to give that territory to Albania.
Kosovo will probably in the future become part of Albania.

So the problem is, will it be posibble possible in 100 years from now, that Turkish will want their own state in the middle of Germany, or Arabs in France, or Pakistans in England.

The Kosovo problem is not that simple as you in the West see it

This is so false propaganda, wow. First, 1000 years ago there was no Serbia only the Duchy of Raša who involved into Serbia. Serbians only did a majority in the northern parts of Kosovo region and that even before the Turks.

And please people, this guay doesnt represent us, ecpecially when he made a stupid statement like this.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

Bobo78

player20 wrote: »

The war during the 90ies is really off-topic. But let in few words. Our government had not intences to do some war crimes compare to the Yugoslav government, in fact there was no genocide comited by the Croatian army. The wars crimes on croatia sied were comited by individual soldiers and most of them got into prison during the 90ies. And during 91-95 period of war there was only 194 killed civilans by the croatian amry, the serbian killed about 40 000 that is the official Hague statement.

If this was only true :rolleyes:

Bobo78

player20 wrote: »

This is so false propaganda, wow. First, 1000 years ago there was no Serbia only the Duchy of Raša who involved into Serbia. Serbians only did a majority in the northern parts of Kosovo region and that even before the Turks.

And please people, this guay doesnt represent us, ecpecially when he made a stupid statement like this.

:rolleyes: Classic example of Croatian lies and propaganda against Serbs.

player20

Bobo78 wrote: »

:rolleyes: Classic example of Croatian lies and propaganda against Serbs.

What is not true?

With Serbia Bosniaks, albanians, croats and in some cases hungary have problems. Are we all crazy?

travelledpengy

Must go there and check it out!

SEEMagazine

Ye'll be pleased to know that it looks like Croatia and Serbia will reach agreement on letting byegones be byegones... To put it very basically.

The 3 main issues are 1. Missing persons (there are still many missing following the war), and of course both sides agree that such individuals are indeed missing.
2. Stolen property, artwork, lands seized by troops etc. Much of which has been retrieved, or returned to the rightful owners.

3. War crimes. With almost everyone believed to be guilty already in jail, or awaiting trial, this might actually be put to bed. The region needs the 2 biggest players to get along in order to help stabilise the other countries like BiH and Kosovo.

I'm currently proofing a piece on the BiH elections and they make Ireland and it's gombeen man clientelism seem positively utopian.

southsiderosie

MODERATOR NOTE:

OK, this thread needs to get back on topic: Croatia's entry into the EU. If you want to start a separate thread on the war, Kosovo, etc, feel free, but if this thread turns into a pitched battle on historical grievances, it will be closed in short order.

If you have any concerns or questions, see the Politics forum charter or PM me, don't post on the thread.

Carry on.

SSR

SEEMagazine

The Moderator is right. Unless you've lived here, and understand the situation then often opinion can boil down to broad sweeping generalisations.

Suffice to say that there are no innocents in all of this. No good guys, no bad guys. Just some very bad people, on both sides, and indeed, still on the loose in the case of the Serbian crime gangs.

If people want to make an informed decision then take the time to read www.balkaninsight.com on a daily basis. While I feel some of the articles there can be a little OTT they do give you an idea of what is happening here.

And while some people like to compare Croatia to Ireland you can be very much assured that they are radically different.

You can't get decent butter here, and I'd kill for some Tayto Cheese and Onion.