Frontline Services

jbkenn

Whenever we attempt to have a discussion on PS pay and more importantly PS pensions, we are confronted by the "Frontline Services" argument, namely Guards, Firefighters, Nurses, so I decided to have a look at the numbers.
We have approximately
14,200 Gardai, set to be reduced to 13,400 by 800 rushing out the gap to get the "Gold Plated" pension before it runs out.
2,400 Firefighters, the vast majority of whom are part time retained, on small money.
67,400 Nurses registered with An Bord Altrainis, and, I presume, not all working in the Public Health area.
So, this begs the question, who exactly are all these "Frontline Services" that we will $hit on, if we address the issue of PS pay reform?.

AlmightyCushion

You can still sort out the PS pay issue without greatly affecting frontline services. You just have to go about it the right way.

Bannasidhe

jbkenn wrote: »

Whenever we attempt to have a discussion on PS pay and more importantly PS pensions, we are confronted by the "Frontline Services" argument, namely Guards, Firefighters, Nurses, so I decided to have a look at the numbers.
We have approximately
14,200 Gardai, set to be reduced to 13,400 by 800 rushing out the gap to get the "Gold Plated" pension before it runs out.
2,400 Firefighters, the vast majority of whom are part time retained, on small money.
67,400 Nurses registered with An Bord Altrainis, and, I presume, not all working in the Public Health area.
So, this begs the question, who exactly are all these "Frontline Services" that we will $hit on, if we address the issue of PS pay reform?.

Well, just for the sake of argument there are also ambulance drivers, teachers, community welfare officers, doctors, lecturers, mid wives, physiotherapists, radiologists, coast guards....;)

jbkenn

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Well, just for the sake of argument there are also ambulance drivers, teachers, community welfare officers, doctors, lecturers, mid wives, physiotherapists, radiologists, coast guards....;)

I am talking of the so called "Frontline Services" oft qouted in the media.
Ambulance Drivers, DHL driver with a First Aid course
Teachers, Frontline??, necessary yes, frontline, no.
Community Welfare Officers? hands out merchants
Doctors?, mostly imported, our own do a runner as soon as they are qualified.
Lecturers, see Teachers.
Mid Wives see Nurses.
Physiotherapists??,
Radiologists? see Doctors
Don't start me on Coast Guards, used to be we provided that service at near zero cost.

andrew

the operative definition of 'front line' service seems to be 'a service provided by the government'

Bannasidhe

jbkenn wrote: »

I am talking of the so called "Frontline Services" oft qouted in the media.
Ambulance Drivers, DHL driver with a First Aid course
Teachers, Frontline??, necessary yes, frontline, no.
Community Welfare Officers? hands out merchants
Doctors?, mostly imported, our own do a runner as soon as they are qualified.
Lecturers, see Teachers.
Mid Wives see Nurses.
Physiotherapists??,
Radiologists? see Doctors
Don't start me on Coast Guards, used to be we provided that service at near zero cost.

A radiologist is not a doctor.
A mid wife and a nurse are two completely different things.
Standing in front of a class every day isn't front line?
What does it matter where a doctor comes from? They are still front line and still have to be paid.
Yes, physiotherapists - those people who help those who have had strokes, hip-replacements, brain injuries, serious car crashes etc etc work to get their mobility back.
A lecturer and a teacher are not the same thing.
Community welfare officers have to deal with, among other things, people who are waiting for SW to sort out their claims. Pretty from line stuff.

Soooo - you only want to go by what you consider front line then and then base your argument on that very narrow definition. Ok. So...

Lets sack everyone who isn't a guard, nurse or firefighter and see how we get on shall we... hope you don't have an accident and require an ambulance to take you to the hospital where you require an X-Ray (or a blood test - who'll do those I wonder?) followed by needing help getting mobility back after suffering a shattered leg .

Or have a wife who gets pregnant - no mid-wives see...
Or have children who require education - teachers just arn't 'frontline' enough so they're gone. Which will remove the need for lecturers as those uneducated children will not be going to university.

RichardAnd

Frontline services is generally used (or so it seems to me) as a catch all for every public service job that is not administration. Even then, however, an administrator could claim that the act of answering the phone makes them front line in that they have direct dealings with the public. I would say there are very few, if any, public service jobs that do not require some sort of interaction with the outside world. Thus, "front line services" appears to be a once of those phrases that is loosely applied wherever it might help an argument.

Godge

jbkenn wrote: »

Whenever we attempt to have a discussion on PS pay and more importantly PS pensions, we are confronted by the "Frontline Services" argument, namely Guards, Firefighters, Nurses, so I decided to have a look at the numbers.
We have approximately
14,200 Gardai, set to be reduced to 13,400 by 800 rushing out the gap to get the "Gold Plated" pension before it runs out.
2,400 Firefighters, the vast majority of whom are part time retained, on small money.
67,400 Nurses registered with An Bord Altrainis, and, I presume, not all working in the Public Health area.
So, this begs the question, who exactly are all these "Frontline Services" that we will $hit on, if we address the issue of PS pay reform?.

How long is a piece of string?

Some people define frontline services as everything that isn't a backoffice service. Others define it as emergency services only. It depends on the context.

If you are developing a protocol for those public services that shouldn't be allowed to strike, you would focus on emergency frontline services, so you would include the guards, army, firefighters and everyone associated with A&E in the Health Service.

However, if you define frontline services as those that deal with the public, it would cover most public services excluding those in HR, Finance, IT and other similar backoffice provision.

So, to answer the OP, for different reasons, you define frontline services differently. The next question to the OP is for what reason do you want to define frontline services?

irishh_bob

frontline services is code for many different things to many people but is essentially union speak

for some it means anyone who doesnt make thier living with a pen in the PS

for some it means those who deal with the public face to face

for some it means those who deal with emergency services only

for me , its PR code for next to sainthood and deserving of uncoditional praise at all times and also deserving of protection from the effects of rescession no matter what

woodoo

jbkenn wrote: »

I am talking of the so called "Frontline Services" oft qouted in the media.
Ambulance Drivers, DHL driver with a First Aid course
Teachers, Frontline??, necessary yes, frontline, no.
Community Welfare Officers? hands out merchants
Doctors?, mostly imported, our own do a runner as soon as they are qualified.
Lecturers, see Teachers.
Mid Wives see Nurses.
Physiotherapists??,
Radiologists? see Doctors
Don't start me on Coast Guards, used to be we provided that service at near zero cost.

I don't think you are interest in a serious discussion. I just see another attempt at PS bashing from that post.

Derek Zoolander

Bannasidhe wrote: »

A radiologist is not a doctor.
A mid wife and a nurse are two completely different things.
Standing in front of a class every day isn't front line?
What does it matter where a doctor comes from? They are still front line and still have to be paid.
Yes, physiotherapists - those people who help those who have had strokes, hip-replacements, brain injuries, serious car crashes etc etc work to get their mobility back.
A lecturer and a teacher are not the same thing.
Community welfare officers have to deal with, among other things, people who are waiting for SW to sort out their claims. Pretty from line stuff.

Soooo - you only want to go by what you consider front line then and then base your argument on that very narrow definition. Ok. So...

Lets sack everyone who isn't a guard, nurse or firefighter and see how we get on shall we... hope you don't have an accident and require an ambulance to take you to the hospital where you require an X-Ray (or a blood test - who'll do those I wonder?) followed by needing help getting mobility back after suffering a shattered leg .

Or have a wife who gets pregnant - no mid-wives see...
Or have children who require education - teachers just arn't 'frontline' enough so they're gone. Which will remove the need for lecturers as those uneducated children will not be going to university.

A radiologist most certainly is a doctor in this country anyway as they are the doctors who report and diagnose images. Radiographers or Sonographers are not doctors and in some other countries can actually report on imagines too but in Ireland this is something that the radiologists are responsible for...

tayto lover

Ambulance crews are more than "First Aid(ers)" too, they are Paramedics and save many lives by their interventions.

cursai

jbkenn wrote: »

Whenever we attempt to have a discussion on PS pay and more importantly PS pensions, we are confronted by the "Frontline Services" argument, namely Guards, Firefighters, Nurses, so I decided to have a look at the numbers.
We have approximately
14,200 Gardai, set to be reduced to 13,400 by 800 rushing out the gap to get the "Gold Plated" pension before it runs out.
2,400 Firefighters, the vast majority of whom are part time retained, on small money.
67,400 Nurses registered with An Bord Altrainis, and, I presume, not all working in the Public Health area.
So, this begs the question, who exactly are all these "Frontline Services" that we will $hit on, if we address the issue of PS pay reform?.

We do not have 14200. Couple of thousand are reserve Gardai. Its because of these kind of factual inaccuracies that these thread topics turn into a heap of frustration and table banging.
So you're if to a great start already with the Irish independent statistics quoting.

Paulzx

jbkenn wrote: »

I am talking of the so called "Frontline Services" oft qouted in the media.
Ambulance Drivers, DHL driver with a First Aid course
.

I'm not even going to address the rest of that post as the lack of knowledge in it means you have lost all credability.


I will only address what i have quoted.

All 999 emergency ambulances must be crewed by Paramedics or advanced Paramedics. You won't find them in courier vans or you won't find someone in a DHL uniform performing CPR on your family member after you have rung 999.

All Paramedics that enter the service now receive a 3rd level qualification fromm either UCD or the Royal College of Surgeons depending on whether the train with the HSE or Dublin fire Brigade.

If you wish to cure your ignorance take a look here http://www.phecit.ie/DesktopDefault.aspx

Or maybe you can just keep posting idiotic rubbish instead

jbkenn

cursai wrote: »

We do not have 14200. Couple of thousand are reserve Gardai. Its because of these kind of factual inaccuracies that these thread topics turn into a heap of frustration and table banging.
So you're if to a great start already with the Irish independent statistics quoting.

So, somebody enlighten me, how many serving Gardai do we have? I took my figures from here
http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=5416&Lang=1

An Garda Síochána is a community based organisation with over 14,500 Garda and Civilian employees, who serve all sections of the community.

How many Firefighters do we have?, the only information I can find is here
http://irishfireservices.ie/irish-fire-services-overview

The 3,300 approx staff of the Fire Services runs 216 Approx fire stations around the country and is made up of full-time professional fire fighters and retained part-time firefighters. Retained fire crews, who make up about two-thirds of the national total

The figure I used for Nurses came from An Bord Altranais spreadsheet here.
http://www.nursingboard.ie/en/statistics_article.aspx?article=2f940917-b7bc-4532-a6ce-65c316157ca4

Feel free to correct my assumptions

jbkenn

Paulzx wrote: »

I'm not even going to address the rest of that post as the lack of knowledge in it means you have lost all credability.


I will only address what i have quoted.

All 999 emergency ambulances must be crewed by Paramedics or advanced Paramedics. You won't find them in courier vans or you won't find someone in a DHL uniform performing CPR on your family member after you have rung 999.

All Paramedics that enter the service now receive a 3rd level qualification fromm either UCD or the Royal College of Surgeons depending on whether the train with the HSE or Dublin fire Brigade.

If you wish to cure your ignorance take a look here http://www.phecit.ie/DesktopDefault.aspx

Or maybe you can just keep posting idiotic rubbish instead

No I don't wish to keep posting rubbish, feel free to enlighten me, as you obviously have some knowledge in this area, what exactly is a Paramedic?,
what is the difference a Paramedic and an Advanced Paramedic?.
Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council
from their site

The Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council (PHECC) is the Irish EMS regulator. The Council is an independent statutory agency with responsibility for standards, education and training in pre-hospital emergency care. PHECC also maintain a statutory register of pre-hospital emergency care practitioners.

Never heard of them, obviously another Quango, what exact qualifications do they deliver?.
Just curious.

swim2

.
Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council
from their site
Never heard of them, obviously another Quango, what exact qualifications do they deliver?.
Just curious.[/QUOTE]


Some of the qualifications that they do provide is to train people in the community to be able to resusciate a person so that they have a much better chance of surviving a heart attack. The more people trained in this the more lives are saved, which can only be a good thing.
These courses, cardiac First Responder, are designed for ordinary public.
PHECC also train more advanced first aid

Gumbo

jbkenn wrote: »

what exactly is a Paramedic?

How old are you? Is this a serious question?

jbkenn wrote: »

No I don't wish to keep posting rubbish, feel free to enlighten me, as you obviously have some knowledge in this area, what exactly is a Paramedic?,
what is the difference a Paramedic and an Advanced Paramedic?.
Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council
from their site
Never heard of them, obviously another Quango, what exact qualifications do they deliver?.
Just curious.

I'll tell you what, considering you are posting rubbish.
The next time you or a family member get hurt, injured in an accident and an ambulance arrives on scene, how about the driver and passenger do nothing, absolutely nothing. just load you on a bed and deliver you to a hospital, this is what DHL would do, isint it?

And we'll see if your still around afterwards to write about it.

jbkenn

kceire wrote: »

How old are you? Is this a serious question?

probably a lot older than you, explain to me what a paramedic is, because the HSE only seem to use Emergency Medical Technicians (EMT's)

I'll tell you what, considering you are posting rubbish.
The next time you or a family member get hurt, injured in an accident and an ambulance arrives on scene, how about the driver and passenger do nothing, absolutely nothing. just load you on a bed and deliver you to a hospital, this is what DHL would do, isint it?

I have had occasion to use the HSE Ambulance Service, and, I have to say the crew were first class, no complaints, so, were they Paramedics or EMT's?, were they trained/certified by the HSE or the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council?
Simple question, simple answer

Gumbo

jbkenn wrote: »

probably a lot older than you, explain to me what a paramedic is, because the HSE only seem to use Emergency Medical Technicians (EMT's)

I have had occasion to use the HSE Ambulance Service, and, I have to say the crew were first class, no complaints, so, were they Paramedics or EMT's?, were they trained/certified by the HSE or the Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council?
Simple question, simple answer

does it matter?

Am i a Technician or a Draughtsman? I do the same job, so no difference really. They are what you want to call them.

A paramedic is a healthcare professional that works in emergency medical situations. Paramedics provide advanced levels of care for medical emergencies and trauma.[1] The majority of paramedics are based in the field in ambulances, emergency response vehicles, or in specialist mobile units such as cycle response. Paramedics provide out-of-hospital treatment and some diagnostic services,[2][3] although some may undertake hospital-based roles, such as in the treatment of minor injuries.

Emergency Medical Technician (EMT) or Ambulance Technician are terms used in some countries to denote a healthcare provider of emergency medical services.[1] Common obsolete terms include ambulance driver, ambulance orderly, ambulance attendant and ambulanceman.

The precise meaning of the term varies by jurisdiction, but in many countries EMTs respond to emergency calls, perform certain medical procedures and transport patients to hospital in accordance with protocols and guidelines established by physician medical directors. They may work in an ambulance service (paid or voluntary), as a member of technical rescue teams/squads, or as part of an allied service such as a fire or police department. EMTs are trained to assess a patient's condition, and to perform such emergency medical procedures as are needed to maintain a patent airway with adequate breathing and cardiovascular circulation until the patient can be transferred to an appropriate destination for advanced medical care. Interventions include cardiopulmonary resuscitation, defibrillation, controlling severe external bleeding, preventing shock, body immobilization to prevent spinal damage, and splinting of bone fractures.

Godge

jbkenn wrote: »

No I don't wish to keep posting rubbish, .

I appreciate that and am willing to help but until you define more closely what you mean by frontline services and what context you want the information, it is difficult to answer your questions.

Paulzx

jbkenn wrote: »

No I don't wish to keep posting rubbish, feel free to enlighten me, as you obviously have some knowledge in this area, what exactly is a Paramedic?,
what is the difference a Paramedic and an Advanced Paramedic?.
Pre-Hospital Emergency Care Council
from their site
Never heard of them, obviously another Quango, what exact qualifications do they deliver?.
Just curious.

You quoted what they do in your post yet you are still asking what they do?

They are the licensing body for all pre hospital care workers. They set the syllabus for training, designate qualified training organisations and issue the license to practice for all Paramedics et.

They also have a statuatory role in "fitness to practice" investigations.

They are the paramedical equivalent of the Medical Council or An Bord Altranis.

If you want to know exactly what Paramedics and Advanced Paramedics can do read the links provided and don't be so lazy.