brake orientation in ireland?

Icyseanfitz

just wondering if there are any regulations in place for stores and what not to sell bikes in ireland with the front brake to the right and rear to the left, i know there is in england and i think its illegal to sell a bike with euro brakes without the customer asking for them is it the case here as well?

Captain Havoc

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

just wondering if there are any regulations in place for stores and what not to sell bikes in ireland with the front brake to the right and rear to the left, i know there is in england and i think its illegal to sell a bike with euro brakes without the customer asking for them is it the case here as well?

I bought a bike here set up Euro style.

feck sake lads

this is a new one on me

ThisRegard

I thought it depended on the bike manufacturer, they come pretty much built anyway with the brakes attached so the store would usually just do the wheels, pedals, bars and wouldn't worry about how the brakes were set up.

I have one of each, Ridley and Trek. The Ridley has the front brake on the left and the Trek is on the right.

coolbeans

It's an interesting point alright. I use the Dublin Bikes pretty regularly during the week where the rear is on the right and the front on the left. My new bike delivered was the opposite so I changed it to correspond. There's too much potential for a **** up in an emergency even though I always use both brakes.

**Timbuk2**

Which brake are you supposed to use in normal circumstances - the front brake?
And in an emergency - is it just pull hard on one of the brakes, or both at the same time?

coolbeans

Use both, but in the wet modulate so you're putting a little more pressure on the rear shifter. You've got two brakes for a reason.

Icyseanfitz

problem is if you want to turn right, the only brake you have available while indicating is the front which could lead to an accident from grabbing a fist of front brake for what ever reason (avoid a car etc.),

Holyboy

I was going to harp on about this issue earlier but after some wine I just can't be bothered:D

It's dangerous and a lot of mechanics over here are just lazy!

Wishbone Ash

As Icyseanfitz says it's much safer to have the rear brake on the left to allow for right turn indications.

On a similar vein, aren't shops which sell fixies without brakes acting illegally?

Beasty

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

On a similar vein, aren't shops which sell fixies without brakes acting illegally?

No - track bikes have no brakes (and many fixies are perfectly suited to track cycling)

Wishbone Ash

Beasty wrote: »

No - track bikes have no brakes (and many fixies are perfectly suited to track cycling)

But on public roads? (I take the point that the shops could claim that they are selling them for track use only).

Zen0

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

problem is if you want to turn right, the only brake you have available while indicating is the front which could lead to an accident from grabbing a fist of front brake for what ever reason (avoid a car etc.),

Never thought of that! Now you've got me thinking :mad:. It's like toe overlap, it never bothered me until I knew it existed!

Beasty

I think it would be reasonable for the shop to point out they are not legal on Irish roads, but there is no way a law could be constructed to make it illegal for a shop sell bikes in a format that could be raced on the track

Beasty

Zen0 wrote: »

Never thought of that! Now you've got me thinking :mad:. It's like toe overlap, it never bothered me until I knew it existed!

The current format was designed when brakes were a lot less reliable, and the risk of locking up the front wheel was probably a lot higher then

Wishbone Ash

Beasty wrote: »

there is no way a law could be constructed to make it illegal for a shop sell bikes in a format that could be raced on the track

Any bike I've ever bought came with reflectors and a bell as I have been told by my LBS that they are mandatory fittings. All motor vehicles sold must meet statutory requirements for public use regardless of where they are used. Indeed, many motor vehicles sold here exceed requirements as they are set up for more stricter countries. Could motor dealers not use the same arguments?

BTW - where is there track racing in Ireland?

Beasty

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Any bike I've ever bought came with reflectors and a bell as I have been told by my LBS that they are mandatory fittings. All motor vehicles sold must meet statutory requirements for public use regardless of where they are used. Indeed, many motor vehicles sold here exceed requirements as they are set up for more stricter countries. Could motor dealers not use the same arguments?

BTW - where is there track racing in Ireland?

Bells are a legal requirement to be fitted on new bikes in the UK, but can be removed straight away. I do not believe there is a legal requirement to fit bells to new bikes in Ireland that are designed for racing

Motor vehicles are subject to stringent laws that are not generally applied to bikes

Track racing takes place at Sundrive (Dublin) and Kanturk in Ireland

seamus

There's no law specifically compelling a bike shop to sell a bike in a "road legal" condition, however there's a certain amount of argument that a bike shop who sold a bike without the legal things could be held partially negligent in the event that an accident occured due to the lack of this "safety" equipment.

Strictly speaking every bike, except those designed for racing, are required by Irish law to have lights permanently attached to the bike. But you'd never see a shop selling a bike with (free) lights attached.

In most cases the bike comes with a bell and reflectors attached cos they're in the box when they arrive at the shop. Easier to stick them on and let the customer take them off.

I used to have stronger opinions on the front/back brake conundrum, but having ridden it "euro" style for a couple of years, I'm not really pushed. My MTB is non-Euro setup and I don't really have any difficulties switching between them and indicating/braking isn't an issue.

From a setup POV, "euro" style allows for a neater setup on v-brakes and road calipers. The cable stop is located on the right-hand side of the bike (at the front), so if you attach that to the right-hand brake, you need a longer, sloppier "S" bend from the lever to the brake. On the LHS, the cable run is a more direct L bend. Much neater setup.

On disc MTBs, the caliper is on the LHS, so it's a neater run to the front brake from the right-hand lever.

rp

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

just wondering if there are any regulations in place for stores and what not to sell bikes in ireland with the front brake to the right and rear to the left, i know there is in england and i think its illegal to sell a bike with euro brakes without the customer asking for them is it the case here as well?

THE German DIN standard requires the front brake to be operated by the right-hand lever, and this standard is/was going to form the basis of a EN standard.
Sheldon Brown wrote a good article on braking and turning, and discusses the standardisation at the bottom of the page.

tommmy1979

rp wrote: »

THE German DIN standard requires the front brake to be operated by the right-hand lever, and this standard is/was going to form the basis of a EN standard.
Sheldon Brown wrote a good article on braking and turning, and discusses the standardisation at the bottom of the page.

We should do the opposite to what the Germans are recommending for no other reason other than simply to annoy them.
T

rp

tommmy1979 wrote: »

We should do the opposite to what the Germans are recommending for no other reason other than simply to annoy them.
T

Gesprochen wie ein echter 'Tommy' but lookit, we can annoy the French more this way

Lumen

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

problem is if you want to turn right, the only brake you have available while indicating is the front which could lead to an accident from grabbing a fist of front brake for what ever reason (avoid a car etc.),

The front brake is the one you should use in an emergency. It is extremely unlikely you could apply enough force to throw yourself over the bars one handed. Of course once you recognise the need to brake I assume you would stop indicating and concentrate on stopping with both hands. It's amazing how quick your hands can move when you are staring death in the face

The problem with non-euro brakes is that you can't indicate a right turn and slow down effectively at the same time since the back will lock up. This is particularly bad at wet downhill junctions.

C3PO

Personally don't think it makes much difference as long as all your bikes have the same set up and you're used to it!

ROK ON

My front brake is on the left on my bikes. It is the most sensible given the side of the road that we travel on.

A few years ago I gave my bike into a shop for a full service, cables replacing etc etc.

When I got it back the bike mechanic had unasked for switched my brake set up such that the front was now on the right. Furious as I only found out when I cycled away. Had to redo the job when I got home.

Icyseanfitz

ROK ON wrote: »

My front brake is on the left on my bikes. It is the most sensible given the side of the road that we travel on.

A few years ago I gave my bike into a shop for a full service, cables replacing etc etc.

When I got it back the bike mechanic had unasked for switched my brake set up such that the front was now on the right. Furious as I only found out when I cycled away. Had to redo the job when I got home.

just out of interest do you live outside ireland or the uk?

Wishbone Ash

Lumen wrote: »

once you recognise the need to brake I assume you would stop indicating and concentrate on stopping with both hands. It's amazing how quick your hands can move when you are staring death in the face

I have a downhill stretch as I approach the right hand turn to the road where I live. Traffic is usually quite heavy and tends to overtake here as the road straightens out. I need to indicate early to avoid an accident. I have the rear brake on the left and I find it more stable to press it with my other arm outstretched while glancing behind. My last bike was the opposite setup and I found it less stable in the similar situation. Not indicating is not really an option for me. (Even when clearly indicating some idiots still choose to pass!)

-Chris-

Right = Rear
Left = Front

All my bikes are like that, and forever that will be true.

If I was buying a new bike from a shop and it had brakes on the "wrong" way, I'd ask them to change them over, at no cost, before I took it home (yes, I can do it myself, but in this situation I wouldn't).

Each to their own, I hardly think it should be legislated for.

doozerie

All of my bikes are set with the rear brake on the right too. I immediately changed any that I've bought that were set up the other way round. I've never found it to be a hazard. I think that any situation where you are having to rely entirely on just one brake to stop, or drastically reduce the speed of, the bike is a bad one and I'm not sure that whether you are applying your front or back brake in those circumstances will influence the outcome any more than various other factors (speed, strength, effectiveness of brakes, handling skill, etc.).

Icyseanfitz

but surely ye can understand that someone thats just a leisure cyclist (or rarely on a bike) could have an accident here because of the front being on the left,

take a really wet and slippy day out, coming up to a right turn with a bit of speed and you pull the front a little too hard while indicating right and the front tyre just goes from under you, ive had similar happen with mtb tyres so i can only imagine it easily happens with road tyres as well, i know its legislated against in the uk

-Chris-

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

take a really wet and slippy day out, coming up to a right turn with a bit of speed and you pull the front a little too hard while indicating right and the front tyre just goes from under you, ive had similar happen with mtb tyres so i can only imagine it easily happens with road tyres as well, i know its legislated against in the uk

What's the difference between that scenario and someone who has to brake hard while indicating to go left?

doozerie

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

but surely ye can understand that someone thats just a leisure cyclist (or rarely on a bike) could have an accident here because of the front being on the left,

I think it's a risk, yes, but I'm not sure that it's any greater a risk than some others. For example, controlling a bike one-handed as it slows down can be tricky at the best of times, regardless of which brake is applied, and an inexperienced cyclist could well come a cropper just from lack of basic bike handling skills.

And it's not the case that having the front brake on the right is guaranteed safe either as then turning left becomes the potential worry. It quickly becomes a case of debating over various shades of grey (e.g. whether falling off turning right is more dangerous than falling off turning left), which is one reason why it'd arguably be a bad thing to legislate over.

Personally I don't see any winning argument in favour of either configuration of brakes, in my case I just prefer to have the back brake on the right.

Keep_Her_Lit

-Chris- wrote: »

What's the difference between that scenario and someone who has to brake hard while indicating to go left?

It depends on whether or not you use your front and rear brakes differently. If you do, then pulling a brake lever when you think it's your rear brake when in fact it's your front brake could result in a loss of control.

Also, clearly signalling a left turn is generally less critcal than clearly signalling a right turn.

-Chris-

Keep_Her_Lit wrote: »

It depends on whether or not you use your front and rear brakes differently. If you do, then pulling a brake lever when you think it's your rear brake when in fact it's your front brake could result in a loss of control.

Well, obviously if you get the brakes mixed up, you're liable to go over the bars. I'm not sure if that's the issue though.

Keep_Her_Lit wrote: »

Also, clearly signalling a left turn is generally less critcal than clearly signalling a right turn.

It depends really. Ultimately I'd agree with Lumen and say, in the moment of truth, your indicating hand will drop to the brake lever before you know it and you'll be braking with both hands.

Icyseanfitz

well turning left in my opinion is less dangerous than going right as you must cross traffic doing the latter

-Chris-

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

well turning left in my opinion is less dangerous than going right as you must cross traffic doing the latter

I'm not sure if I'd be happier falling in front of a car as I turned left or if I turned right, but each to their own I suppose...

Keep_Her_Lit

-Chris- wrote: »

I'm not sure if I'd be happier falling in front of a car as I turned left or if I turned right, but each to their own I suppose...

That suggests that the likelihood of doing so is independent of whether you're turning left or right. Turning right is riskier, IMHO, since you need to move to the centre of the road, thereby crossing the path of traffic following you, then complete the manoeuvre by crossing the path of oncoming traffic. Signalling your intention to turn is more important when turning right than when turning left. And the consequences of losing control while doing so are likely to be worse when turning right than when turning left.

In heavy traffic, I'd be very reluctant to turn right without signalling but would more readily dispense with the signal for a left turn if I felt that braking and control would be more assured with both hands.

dquirke1

I don't particularly mind which way people use as long as they're consistent. The whole signalling argument doesnt hold water with me because if you need to stop in a hurry then indicating will be the last thing on your mind.
There's no denying though that a bike set up opposite what you're used to is an accident waiting to happen. In an emergency stop the back brake doesn't do much because if the front brake is fully applied then the back wheel is on the verge of lifting off the ground and has no traction anyway.
If the levers are set up backwards then it's very possible to just lock the back wheel and hit the deck before you ever realise what you're doing wrong. I've learnt this the hard way and it's thaught me to always check every new bike I buy.

-Chris-

Keep_Her_Lit wrote: »

That suggests that the likelihood of doing so is independent of whether you're turning left or right. Turning right is riskier, IMHO, since you need to move to the centre of the road, thereby crossing the path of traffic following you, then complete the manoeuvre by crossing the path of oncoming traffic. Signalling your intention to turn is more important when turning right than when turning left. And the consequences of losing control while doing so are likely to be worse when turning right than when turning left.

I dunno, what I tend to to is indicate, look, move (with both hands on bars).
There's no way I'd cross from the left to centre of the road, or cross the path of oncoming traffic, with an arm stuck in the air. Both hands are firmly on the bars/brake hoods.

YMMV

Idleater

dquirke1 wrote: »

The whole signalling argument doesnt hold water with me because if you need to stop in a hurry then indicating will be the last thing on your mind.

Exactly, as with driving, indicating is a signal of intent not a right of way. Therefore if safety dictates that you should slow rather than continue indicating that takes preference. Whichever left or right orientation you have bears no consequence to your duty of safety.
I see no issue in a cyclist indicating, looking, and then moving with both hands on the bars. I for one don't indicate all the way around a roundabout for example rather beforehand to select the appropriate lane, and again when leaving.

Super Freak

One of the guys in my MTB club wanted to try my bike last year. So we swapped over bikes for a few km.

Heading downhill with a 90deg turn coming up at about 20km/hr I whacked on the "rear" brake to lock the rear and get around the turn..........BAM. On the road in a heap. I was very,very lucky that I had started the turn before applying the brakes otherwise I would have gone teeth first onto the road.

For anyone who has ever ridden a motorbike front brakes are on the right and this is the same throughout the world. I can't understand why this is not standard on cycles too.

tomasrojo

Super Freak wrote: »

For anyone who has ever ridden a motorbike front brakes are on the right and this is the same throughout the world. I can't understand why this is not standard on cycles too.

But for some reason the chain is on the left-hand side of the bike. I wonder sometimes (not for very long) why they ended up on one side on bicycle and the other on motorcycles.

Carawaystick

Front brake is the main brake, same as on motorbikes, breaking hard on the rear will lock it, as the weight distribution moves forward and reduces the load on the back wheel.

doozerie

Keep_Her_Lit wrote: »

Turning right is riskier, IMHO, since you need to move to the centre of the road, thereby crossing the path of traffic following you, then complete the manoeuvre by crossing the path of oncoming traffic. Signalling your intention to turn is more important when turning right than when turning left. And the consequences of losing control while doing so are likely to be worse when turning right than when turning left.

Another way of looking at it is that if you are signaling when turning left it is most likely because there is traffic behind you that you are signaling to, so falling off is obviously quite dangerous in that situation. By comparison, when turning right you may be signaling to oncoming traffic with no traffic behind you so if you fall off you may remain "safely" within your own car-less lane. Worse still, motorists can tend to be more casual about overtaking a left-turning cyclist than a right-turning cyclist since the left-turning cyclist may be taking up a less prominent position in the lane, and this further increases the danger of falling off while turning left.

You can certainly poke holes in those arguments though, just as much as they pokes holes in the theory that turning right is invariably more dangerous. The point is that neither side of those arguments can offer a compelling reason to insist that a particular brake lever should always control a particular brake, which is why I referred earlier to arguments over various shades of grey. What should happen though, and I assume often does happen, is that the retailer should make a point of telling the customer which way the brakes are setup before the customer takes the bike away, but the customer should be free to ask to have the setup changed if they are more comfortable with the alternative setup - I think lack of familiarity with a particular brake setup is quite often the real root of the problem rather than the setup itself.