The reasonable lifespan of a laptop

wilkie2006

HI all,

Under EU law, does anyone know how long one could reasonably argue a laptop should last? (I think a TV is something like 5 years?)

I bought my Apple Macbook Pro at the close of 2007 but I suspect the hard drive might be knackered now. I'm bringing it to their shop tomorrow for a repair but, if they tell me it'll cost something outrageous to repair, is there any legislation I can quote?

Thanks in advance

Jesus Shaves

wilkie2006 wrote: »

HI all,

Under EU law, does anyone know how long one could reasonably argue a laptop should last? (I think a TV is something like 5 years?)

I bought my Apple Macbook Pro at the close of 2007 but I suspect the hard drive might be knackered now. I'm bringing it to their shop tomorrow for a repair but, if they tell me it'll cost something outrageous to repair, is there any legislation I can quote?

Thanks in advance

You've gotten 5 good years out of it! i highly doubt there you have any comeback whatsoever.

dudara

Under Irish law, a product has to last a reasonable lifetime - it's deliberately vague as different products have different lifetime spans.

To be honest, I think that after 4 yrs laptop usage, it's going to be hard to argue this one. Over the course of that 4 years a lot of user wear & tear will have occurred which makes it harder to distinguish if there is a true manufacturing error.

I'd be interested to see how you get on with this one.

Cuddlesworth

wilkie2006 wrote: »

HI all,

Under EU law, does anyone know how long one could reasonably argue a laptop should last? (I think a TV is something like 5 years?)

I bought my Apple Macbook Pro at the close of 2007 but I suspect the hard drive might be knackered now. I'm bringing it to their shop tomorrow for a repair but, if they tell me it'll cost something outrageous to repair, is there any legislation I can quote?

Thanks in advance

Failure rate of about 6% in the first year here. By the third is about 11%.

I don't think five years is unreasonable for a mechanical part to fail.

wilkie2006

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

I just found this online (http://www.apple.com/ie/support/macbook/hd/repairextension/)

In February 2010, Apple determined that a very small percentage of hard drives that were used in MacBook systems, sold between approximately May 2006 and December 2007, might fail under certain conditions.
MacBooks that were purchased in the date range listed above and showed a flashing question mark on the screen were eligible for a replacement, free of charge, by Apple or an Apple Authorized Service Provider. The program covered affected MacBook models for 3 years from their original date of purchase or until August 15, 2010.
Apple completed this program on February 04, 2011.

If my laptop is one of those affected (same symptom), is it legal for Apple to deny a replacement based on their arbitrary cut-off date of Feb 04, 2011?

Also, if there is a manufacturing fault, can Apple legally reject my claim based on the fact that it's been 4 years (rather than 3) from the original date of purchase?

Thanks again

dudara

I think you need to get in touch with Apple first and see what they say. Until that happens, it's really all quite theoretical.

Hard disks are normally considered to last for 3-5 years so you've gotten a good lifespan out of it.

Cabaal

wilkie2006 wrote: »

Also, if there is a manufacturing fault, can Apple legally reject my claim based on the fact that it's been 4 years (rather than 3) from the original date of purchase?

Thanks again

Your speculating at the moment, yours may not have been affected.

Bottom line is speak to Apple not some PC Repair shop, odds are the repair shop aren't authorized to repair the macbook anyway so they'll send it off for repair to apple.

Keep in mind though that harddrives fail, its a fact of computer systems. its a pain in the arse but it happens

wilkie2006

dudara wrote: »

I think you need to get in touch with Apple first and see what they say. Until that happens, it's really all quite theoretical.

Cabaal wrote: »

Your speculating at the moment, yours may not have been affected.


Keep in mind though that harddrives fail, its a fact of computer systems. its a pain in the arse but it happens

Sensible suggestions.

Yea, I know I'm speculating; just really, really hoping they're not going to ask me for 800E to sort it out. Anyway, I'll talk to them tomorrow. Thanks for all the advice everyone.

whippet

as far as I remember that recall was for White MacBook's (not macbook pros)

A new hard drive should set you back at the most €80 (they are a little pricey now due to the flooding in Thailand).

Have a look on YouTube for how to replace the hard drive.

Even for those with little knowledge it is a simple task.

skinny90

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Failure rate of about 6% in the first year here. By the third is about 11%.

I don't think five years is unreasonable for a mechanical part to fail.

now thats just daft!:P
http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/11/17/reliability.study.has.apple.4th.place/
if that was the case why on earth would we have so many computer repair places?

paddyandy

Mine is on it's 5th year Targa Lidls notebook and better than ever with upgrades to 7 and service pack downloads but i keep a close watch on security and i have assisted fan cooler .I expect something will give problems though .It is on a lot more than i think most people could believe ..7 hrs per day at least .

Cuddlesworth

skinny90 wrote: »

now thats just daft!:P
http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/11/17/reliability.study.has.apple.4th.place/
if that was the case why on earth would we have so many computer repair places?

That's our figures for failed hard-drives from a pool of just under 2000 work laptops, used day in and day out for their entire three year life cycle.

Also your article is three years old based on what are now 6-8 year old machines and I personally have seen huge quality improvements in terms of our overall failure rates in the last five years. Better airflow design, gshock/accelerometer sensors, better alloys and plastics, rigid chassis, proper low temp chips have all made a huge difference.

Icepick

Karsini wrote: »

Hard disks are normally considered to last for 3-5 years so you've gotten a good lifespan out of it.

:eek:
They should last for 10 years without total failure.

Cuddlesworth

Icepick wrote: »

:eek:
They should last for 10 years without total failure.

Look at the traditional hard drive tech and put it into a portable device, its next to impossible to eliminate failures.

tricky D

Especially given the way plenty of users move their laptops around so that the heads damage the disk surface.

One of my laptops is still going well after almost 7 years, though it has had 1 hard drive change 2 years ago, which isn't bad after 2 moderate drops. Otherwise it has been well used, usually on for >12hrs/day and well cared for.

_AVALANCHE_

I'm just after getting 7 and a half years out of a 320GB Maxtor HDD. Seagate bought them in 2006 though so you can't get them anymore. Pity.

coylemj

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

I'm just after getting 7 and a half years out of a 320GB Maxtor HDD. Seagate bought them in 2006 though so you can't get them anymore. Pity.

Was that an external HDD which spent most of it's life sitting on a desk and was only moved when switched off?

compsys

You say you bought the laptop at the end of 2007. It's only the start of 2012 now.

That means you've only gotten four years out of the laptop which I think is a bit short.

If you'd had the laptop for over 6 years or so I would have said you'd gotten good mileage of out of it, but for an Apple laptop to fail after four years I think it's a bit short.

_AVALANCHE_

coylemj wrote: »

Was that an external HDD which spent most of it's life sitting on a desk and was only moved when switched off?

No, internal Desktop (if that makes a difference) Drive. Never partitioned either, I say that as it's thought that by putting the operating system at the start of the drive you can cut out alot of needless searches so as to reduce wear and tear. And, it got lots of teenager type use. The worst kind.

partyatmygaff

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

No, internal Desktop (if that makes a difference) Drive.

Makes a world of difference. Desktop HDDs are mounted in a steel cage and are rarely ever jolted or overheated during operation. Laptop HDDs almost always encounter sharp jolts during operation.

Never partitioned either, I say that as it's thought that by putting the operating system at the start of the drive you can cut out alot of needless searches so as to reduce wear and tear. And, it got lots of teenager type use. The worst kind.

For one, not partitioning your drive is unlikely to significantly reduce wear and tear. The only mechanical component that is likely to ever suffer badly from wear and tear would be the spindle bearings and even at that the wear would be minimal. The only activity that would really have any significant effect on a HDD's life would be constant read and write requests in for example a server environment. "Teenager type use" or typical home laptop use isn't going to wear out a HDD's mechanisms.

_AVALANCHE_

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Makes a world of difference. Desktop HDDs are mounted in a steel cage and are rarely ever jolted or overheated during operation. Laptop HDDs almost always encounter sharp jolts during operation.

Ah yes, I know this, I was getting more at the sheer amount of operating use the HDD got, 12/16 hours a day, whatever about knocks, I can't think of it now but I came across a program the other day that could tell you how many hours your computer has been on. It would have been interesting to see....

I've a Laptop, I wouldn't move it when it's active, only people that do had it bought for them by mammy, got it handy from work, or are stupid.

partyatmygaff wrote: »

For one, not partitioning your drive is unlikely to significantly reduce wear and tear. The only mechanical component that is likely to ever suffer badly from wear and tear would be the spindle bearings and even at that the wear would be minimal. The only activity that would really have any significant effect on a HDD's life would be constant read and write requests in for example a server environment. "Teenager type use" or typical home laptop use isn't going to wear out a HDD's mechanisms.

Partitioning would cut out alot of Head Disk arm movement...

A 2007 study published by Google suggested very little correlation between failure rates and either high temperature or activity level; however, the correlation between manufacturer/model and failure rate was relatively strong. Statistics in this matter are kept highly secret by most entities. Google did not relate manufacturers' names with failure rates,[108] though they have since revealed that they use Hitachi Deskstar drives in some of their servers.[109] While several S.M.A.R.T. parameters have an impact on failure probability, a large fraction of failed drives do not produce predictive S.M.A.R.T. parameters.[108]
A common misconception is that, all else being equal, a colder hard drive will last longer than a hotter one. The Google study seems to imply the reverse—"lower temperatures are associated with higher failure rates". Hard drives with S.M.A.R.T.-reported average temperatures below 27 °C (81 °F) had higher failure rates than hard drives with the highest reported average temperature of 50 °C (122 °F), failure rates at least twice as high as the optimum S.M.A.R.T.-reported temperature range of 36 °C (97 °F) to 47 °C (117 °F).[108]

...reading that it seems heat and activity have little to do with failure rate, all to do with how well they were made, bring back Maxtor:D.

Wiki page is well worth a read, well written.

Cuddlesworth

Well, the Google study is about server drives operating in constant 24/7 activity. Not really comparable in any way to desktop or laptop drives in environment, load or use. Laptop drives in particular.

I should mention, our desktop hard-drive failure rate is currently at .7 per three years. I can see it going down. Overall failure rate is much lower again then laptops, about a tenth if my memory is correct. They don't move, have adequate space and are cooled much efficiently then laptops. Items like keyboards, mice and screens are peripherals are can be replaced easily and independently of the unit itself.

P. Breathnach

I suggest that this discussion has become excessively technical, and drifted away from the core issue: from a consumer rights point of view, how long can one reasonably expect a laptop to last? In such a context, it is a minimum reasonable expectation, not an average or a best possible period of problem-free usage.

I'd go with the suggestion that after four years it would be difficult to persuade a court that the consumer did not get reasonable use out of a laptop. OP also seems to have accepted that suggestion. Personally, I would take the view that after three years, I am on my own with either laptops or desktops.

uck51js9zml2yt

my drive just went and laptop is just out of warranty:(

Zab

Given the age of the laptop I'd say that the chances of you winning in court aren't worth the hassle and potential cost in time of actually going to the small claims court in the first place. See what Apple say first but if they won't do it for for you then just replace the drive.

The hard drive is an easily replaceable component. As mentioned you'd be able to do it yourself with a bit of googling.

cast_iron

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Personally, I would take the view that after three years, I am on my own with either laptops or desktops.

Not that bad a guide. But lets say you paid about €3000 for it. What is reasonable should well be price dependent. The €350 laptop wouldn't not be expected to last as one that costs €3000 - to a reasonable person. Again, it would be down to a judge to decide what is a "reasonable" life span taking all factors into account.

P. Breathnach

cast_iron wrote: »

Not that bad a guide. But lets say you paid about €3000 for it. What is reasonable should well be price dependent. The €350 laptop wouldn't not be expected to last as one that costs €3000 - to a reasonable person. Again, it would be down to a judge to decide what is a "reasonable" life span taking all factors into account.

Fair enough. But my personal rule of thumb doesn't include paying that much for a PC!

dudara

cast_iron wrote: »

Not that bad a guide. But lets say you paid about €3000 for it. What is reasonable should well be price dependent. The €350 laptop wouldn't not be expected to last as one that costs €3000 - to a reasonable person. Again, it would be down to a judge to decide what is a "reasonable" life span taking all factors into account.

Not really - people in Ireland paid far too much for houses, compared to their true worth. A price tag only indicates what someone is willing to pay for a product, it may not have any relation to the true value of the item.

I think 4 years is coming up on what people would generally consider the reasonable lifetime of a laptop. After this, it may still work, but the spec would have moved beyond current requirements.

php-fox

A laptop hard drive can be purchased for 30-60 euro, depending on capacity. They're all standard. It doesn't matter if you've a mac or pc.

Each mac comes with a book of instructions how to change the hard drive. 20 minute job, if you don't know what you're doing and 2 minutes if you do.


3 years is a standard warranty on a hard drive. I think, they're being reduced to 2 now.
I have an enterprise level drive in my desktop - 5 year warranty, and a lot more expensive.

I think the fact that you got 5 years use from you drive is simple great. I had drives fail after 6 months.

cast_iron

dudara wrote: »

Not really - people in Ireland paid far too much for houses, compared to their true worth. A price tag only indicates what someone is willing to pay for a product, it may not have any relation to the true value of the item.

I don't think that matters. At the end of the day, it's what the retailer has charged as part of the contract.

Are you saying that the judge should have no consideration at to the cost of the item?

dudara

I would be hesistant to automatically assume a hefty price tag assumes better quality, unless specifically called out in the product description.

cast_iron

dudara wrote: »

I would be hesistant to automatically assume a hefty price tag assumes better quality, unless specifically called out in the product description.

That wasn't really what I asked.
Do you think that the judge should have no consideration as to the cost of the item when deciding if it's lifespan is reasonable?

partyatmygaff

cast_iron wrote: »

That wasn't really what I asked.
Do you think that the judge should have no consideration as to the cost of the item when deciding if it's lifespan is reasonable?

Not so much cost as target market.

Take Dell's range of laptops. A top spec Inspiron 17 would almost cost the exact same as the base spec Precision M4600. It's clear as day however that a professional workstation like the M4600 is marketed as being a durable laptop with a long life cycle whereas the consumer Inspiron 17 isn't necessarily advertised as being durable.

maglite

OP just learn how to or get someone to change the Hard Drive. Cheaper and far less hassle. YOur being ridden if they are asking €800 for a HD repair

wilkie2006

Hi guys,

Thanks a million for all the advice. It was really useful to hear everyone's perspectives on the life expectancy of a HD and also how much it would cost to replace it myself.

I've got the problem sorted now. Not only is my Mac back, it's better than ever, with an expanded HD and a more recent OS.

Thanks again everyone!

Zab

Apple did it for you without charge?

wilkie2006

Zab wrote: »

Apple did it for you without charge?

No, they didn't; it cost me 140 quid. I know people suggested doing it myself but I'm not confident around the insides of computers and thought this was a pretty reasonable price to know that was done properly.

_AVALANCHE_

wilkie2006 wrote: »

No, they didn't; it cost me 140 quid. I know people suggested doing it myself but I'm not confident around the insides of computers and thought this was a pretty reasonable price to know that was done properly.

No it wasn't, did they install Operating System?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9r1UAVq9AU

partyatmygaff

€140 could have got you a 128GB SSD or a 1TB HDD possibly with change to spare. I wouldn't call it a fair price unless you got a minimum of a 500GB 7200RPM HDD.

wilkie2006

_AVALANCHE_ wrote: »

No it wasn't, did they install Operating System?

<SNIP>

partyatmygaff wrote: »

€140 could have got you a 128GB SSD or a 1TB HDD possibly with change to spare. I wouldn't call it a fair price unless you got a minimum of a 500GB 7200RPM HDD.

Not sure what the size of the new HD is but it's larger than the old one. And yea, they gave uploaded a new OS

dudara

Posters - you can take the discussion about the technicalities of changing the HDD to the Computers & Laptops forum.

Stick to the Consumer Issue here.

dudara

P. Breathnach

dudara wrote: »

I would be hesistant to automatically assume a hefty price tag assumes better quality, unless specifically called out in the product description.

Every case is arguable on its own particular merits, but I think it is fair to start with a presumption that a high-price PC should in some way or ways be superior to a budget PC. That can include reasonable expectations about quality of components and build quality.

I'd still not be confident trying to convince a judge about that.

wilkie2006

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Every case is arguable on its own particular merits, but I think it is fair to start with a presumption that a high-price PC should in some way or ways be superior to a budget PC. That can include reasonable expectations about quality of components and build quality.

I'd still not be confident trying to convince a judge about that.

Although I didn't mention it in the original post, this was where my question arose from; the laptop cost over 3000E. Because of its price, I was afraid that any repair might have been prohibitively expensive.

Nonoperational

€140 - New HDD, professionally fitted, with warranty and new OS. Sounds fine to me.

gpf101

gpf101 wrote: »

€140 - New HDD, professionally fitted, with warranty and new OS. Sounds fine to me.

Same as. In fact, this would be the going rate where I work at the moment. Hard disk prices are still higher than they used to be.