Family... kids... the future...

DazMarz

Hi all...

For anyone who doesn't know, I'm a 23 year old male, and I've recently just accepted the idea that I'm gay and I've been coming out slowly to close friends for about the last month. It's been great so far and I'm an awful lot happier with the pressure and weight off my shoulders.

But something has been just niggling at the back of my head for a while...

If I am gay, and I'm fairly sure that I am, I fear I will never be able to have children. I will never be able to experience the joy of becoming a father (and then possibly a grandfather in the distant future).

I love kids, and I always had a dream of being a dad and of all the things I would be able to experience with my kid(s) and of just experiencing the happiness that comes with being a parent.

But now that dream seems to be fading away from me. I can't imagine I'd want to adopt a child; as old-fashioned and as narrow-minded as it may sound, any child I would raise, I would want it to be my child... my biological child. I don't know why I feel this way, but I just do.

I know it might sound a bit funny, getting broody at 23 and all, but this is something that I've just started thinking about recently and that my dream of having kids is potentially dashed by my finally accepting my sexuality.

I've heard of cases of gay men donating sperm, a surrogate mother and donor eggs being used, but I'm not sure if this is legal/an option in Ireland. Is this an option?

What is the outlook for guys like me who are gay but who also want to have children of our own? I'm not feeling too positive about this at the moment...:(

Intouch9

I know exactly where you are coming from and fully empathize with you. I'm 24 and went through pretty much the exact same thing last year. I was freaking out, thinking I would never have kids of my own, that I didn't want adopted kids, nor did I want them to be shared with another couple.

Ireland is backwards, we all know that, but we are getting there. 2011 was a big year for us as we had CP's and the first gay foster parents which is great! If Ireland isn't ready for me to have child in the next few years when I want one, then I'll be getting out of here and going somewhere that I'll be able to find a surrogate mother and an egg doner.

Also, don't rule out adoption. I understand that you want your own flesh and blood (As did I) but having given it a lot of thought, I'd be happy to adopt a child. Two of my best friends are adopted and their parents are their parents, simple as.

Worst case scenario, the two of us will jump on a plane to America, put buns in paid ovens and come back. You'll have kids buddy... if that's what you want, make it happen.

floggg

I wouldnt worry about it yet. If you were straight, chances are you wouldn't be thinking about kids at your age (indeed the thought would probably have you running for the hills).

You're young and still have loads of time to think about this.

What I will say though is that if kids are something you really want, then I think in a few years time you may well feel differently about adoption. Having kids isn't about how they make you feel, it's about wanting to care for and be responsible for another human life. If that's something you do want to commit to, I doubt the fact that they don't share your genes will stop you doing that.

Personally, I think there is something very selfless and noble about adopting - there are so many kids out there born into crappy circumstances who deserve a good home and upbringing.

DubArk

DazMarz wrote: »

Hi all...

For anyone who doesn't know, I'm a 23 year old male, and I've recently just accepted the idea that I'm gay and I've been coming out slowly to close friends for about the last month. It's been great so far and I'm an awful lot happier with the pressure and weight off my shoulders.

But something has been just niggling at the back of my head for a while...

If I am gay, and I'm fairly sure that I am, I fear I will never be able to have children. I will never be able to experience the joy of becoming a father (and then possibly a grandfather in the distant future).

I love kids, and I always had a dream of being a dad and of all the things I would be able to experience with my kid(s) and of just experiencing the happiness that comes with being a parent.

But now that dream seems to be fading away from me. I can't imagine I'd want to adopt a child; as old-fashioned and as narrow-minded as it may sound, any child I would raise, I would want it to be my child... my biological child. I don't know why I feel this way, but I just do.

I know it might sound a bit funny, getting broody at 23 and all, but this is something that I've just started thinking about recently and that my dream of having kids is potentially dashed by my finally accepting my sexuality.

I've heard of cases of gay men donating sperm, a surrogate mother and donor eggs being used, but I'm not sure if this is legal/an option in Ireland. Is this an option?

What is the outlook for guys like me who are gay but who also want to have children of our own? I'm not feeling too positive about this at the moment...:(

In my 40’s here. When I was in my mid 20’s I went through a bereavement for the lose of “What could of been” I remember thinking this isn’t the way I’d mapped out my life. I was supposed to be sitting, slippers on, at home in my armchair, family dog at my feet with my wonderful children close by and the missus cooking diner!! Instead I was in love with a burly bloke 6’3’’ living the high life (having a blast).

Since then, in my early 30’s I was very interested in conceiving a child with a gay female friend of mine. This would have been a huge step. We discussed it over and over at great length covering all the pros and cons and in the end my partner was completely against it, for all the right reasons.

We know a number of same sex couples male and female who do have kids, living in the US and UK. Mostly female in large, it works in general for them.

Now that I’m older, I have found a new role for myself. An Uncle to kids ranging from 3 to 22 and I have to say, I love been an Uncle. Like any parent, it’s what you put into the relationships with these kids, is what’s so important. Soon you start to reap the rewards. I do anyway and my partner and I love our extended family and all our nieces and nephews.

No it’s not what I thought it would be. It is, what it is for me. My glass is definitely half full. Times are a changing but no one ever knows what’s down the road. Including you.

cgcsb

OP.I know you said you wanted to have your own biological kids. But let's say that you married a man who you absolutely loved and he had his own biological kids and you raised them together, would you love them just the same?

DazMarz

Yeah, a lot of good points made there... Even my best friend said it to me that in maybe 10 years or so (when having kids is something that is to be taken a lot more seriously) it will be the norm for gay people to have kids or to be adopting kids. And he said it too that my mind will have changed by then and I won't be so closed to the idea of adopting.

It was just something that worried me and got to me, just in the last couple of days mind. Ironically, this came about as a friend of mine had a 'scare' with his girlfriend (thankfully, it was a false alarm; or maybe not, I could have adopted their kid if they wanted!!!:P) and it just hit me that I'll probably never have another experience like that (had a 'scare' when I was about 17).

But I'm really interested to know what the exact legal position is for someone in Ireland; is donating eggs and sperm, having a surrogate mother and all that legal in Ireland or is it tangled up in red tape and everything else?

And I know then the difficulties surrounding such a procedure; the agony if it doesn't work, the mother then getting attached to the baby (naturally), etc., so I know it's not the ideal solution, but I don't think if I was in a relationship with another man that we could reproduce (try as we might!!!).

Maybe adopting is the better option, but my mind at the moment would be geared towards wanting my own kid; experiencing all that is going with it, going to ultrasounds, being there to help the mother while she's pregnant (I don't know if that's appropriate, but I'd like to do it), going to classes and all that before the baby is born and being there when my little daughter/son comes into this world and holding them... I'm actually welling up a little bit thinking about it.:o

Slang_Tang

Hi Dazmarz,

What you're asking is complicated. I was interested in this myself awhile back, so I did a lot of reserach. One very important point: I think we are really at a turning point in this country of how we conceive of the family. Just think of two decades ago and think how far gay rights have come. If we finally get to have the constitutional referendum on children, it will be passed, and the welfare of the child will finally be legally paramount.

You're only 23. I'm not sure when you're thinking of having kids, but by the time you're 30, things will be fundamentally different. Gay marriage will be legalized and, I believe anyway, it will be much easier for gay couples to have kids.

Anyway, I think this is the info you're looking for. This is how it stands at present:

Assisted reproduction:

In practice, Irish clinics generally refuse to make assisted reproduction available to cohabiting same-sex couples. It has not yet been decided by an Irish court whether this refusal amounts to discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation under the Equal Status Act 2000 or the Equality Act 2004.

Surrogate motherhood:

Under Irish law, surrogate mothers are legally the natural mothers and guardians of their children.... Under current legislation in Ireland, the surrogate mother is legally the natural mother of the child and is the guardian of the child. Private adoptions are not permitted in Ireland, and a parent of a child is prohibited from receiving any payment for giving away a child for adoption. If the child is being adopted, this must be done through the Adoption Authority of Ireland, and there is no guarantee that the child of a surrogate mother will be placed with the biological father.

Adopting your own biological child:

In theory, a man could donate sperm so that his child could be conceived by a surrogate mother (as long as he did not pay her). He could then apply to the Adoption Authority for permission to adopt his child. When making its decision, the Adoption Authority must consider the welfare of the child, and may take the same-sex relationship into account.

You'll find this useful.

Slang_Tang

I also wanted to say, you sound like a nice person and I'm sure in the future you'll make a great father. But are you sure you're not getting ahead of yourself?

I'm 25 and I came out a few years ago. I remember how hard it was to come out, so well done on the progress you're making. It's also quite a stressful process, so I wouldn't get too worried about how you're going to have children yet.

First you have to finish coming out and find a guy you'd like to settle down with (if that's what you choose).

So one step at a time. Like I said, the legal system is changing. Worry about the present. The future will take care of itself, man.

DazMarz

Oh, I don't want a kid now, by any means!!! As much as I'd love to have a little Daz Jnr. running about the place, there's also a lot of things I simply would not be able to do right now! So it will be YEARS before I'll even consider looking into having a kid.

As for the legalities and all that... not too encouraging, but hopefully things will change and it will become a lot easier. That, or move to Holland, where gay people have more rights than straight people!!!:D

But I was always one who dreamed about the future a lot, who always had things mapped out. Obviously, a lot of what I had mapped out has been redrawn in the past month or so, but I'm still hopeful.

Pacifist Pigeon

Who knows where medical science will take use in the next decade. It's interesting to think about.

If a male-male couple wish to have a child together, it may be possible in the future for a woman to donate one of her eggs, replace the 23 chromosomes inside the egg with 23 chromosomes from the sperm of one of the "fathers" and then allowing a normal sperm cell from the other father to fertilise the new egg. That way you'll "technically" have one embryo with two biological fathers. The embryo would be transferred to a surrogate mother. It's all in the realm of science fiction I believe at the minute, but I wouldn't say it's inconceivable.

Edit: It doesn't actually seem to be impossible, it works on mice - http://www.queerty.com/now-you-can-have-2-biological-fathers-20101210/

gcgirl

DazMarz wrote: »

Oh, I don't want a kid now, by any means!!! As much as I'd love to have a little Daz Jnr. running about the place, there's also a lot of things I simply would not be able to do right now! So it will be YEARS before I'll even consider looking into having a kid.

As for the legalities and all that... not too encouraging, but hopefully things will change and it will become a lot easier. That, or move to Holland, where gay people have more rights than straight people!!!:D

But I was always one who dreamed about the future a lot, who always had things mapped out. Obviously, a lot of what I had mapped out has been redrawn in the past month or so, but I'm still hopeful.

If you wanna try before you buy I'll give you a lend of my youngest

Aurongroove

Something I've thought about (27 YO male here)

I'm rather content at the minute in just finding another half:o. I'm sure any modern family plans I make will be talked about at length when the time comes if and when I'm lucky enough to meet someone. (I'm guessing it'd be ideal first date chit chat material:pac:)

I'm not as fussy with regards adoptions as I know some people are. for me the idea that although the urge to raise one's own DNA is strong, why bend over backwards with surrogates and donated bodily fluids to bring more life into the world when you can imagine giving a child with no family who could've other wise lived age 3-18 in social care a stable and loving if slightly quirky family?

I don't suggest for a moment you actually ask, but imagine asking a young child in social care and no family if they want to come live in a house with their own bedroom, an allowance for being good, a pet dog, parents, grandparents and maybe brothers and sisters but the catch is both their parents will be Daddies/Mummies.
I know where I'd be going!

The prospect for me at least, has a better air of purpose to it, like your killing two birds with the one stone: the child gets a home and a same sex couple gets a child.
I'm not saying it is the point, but eventually adopted children of gay couples are going to become weaved more significantly into future generations of the adult population and possibly become a huge piece of the standardization of homosexuality (ie " gays shouldn't raise kids", "well I was an orphan adopted by a gay couple, and I was given a decent upbringing" take that homophobes etc)
For me it just seems that children in need of adoption and infertile or same sex couples are a ready made syzygy. they are the solution to the other's problems.

DazMarz

Was thinking about this a lot lately... And I know it's only been like 4 days since I made this thread, but already I can feel my mind changing towards ideas of adopting in later years... I guess the idea that if I were to adopt that I'd be giving a child that would have otherwise spent years in foster care/orphanage/god-knows a very good life (and they'd be loved... they would be the best looked after child in the world!!!) is becoming more and more poignant.

Someone said to me that if you adopt a child from a foreign country that you are taking them out of their native culture and raising them in a different one, but most foreign adopted kids would spend their lives in orphanages or whatever, so what culture would they have to be exposed to???

baby and crumble

I did a work placement int he inter-country adoption section of the HSE, and when I went in I wasn't too sure what I was going to experience. But 99.99% of kids I spoke to, and parents too, were very happy with how their culture was being respected at home- one of the big things in the assessment is that the parents understand how important it is that their childs culture be a part of the new family. It's crucial. Once any prospective adoptive parents understand that they can't just adopt a child and pretend they are 100% Irish in every way, then I don't see what he big deal is. So you celebrate Chinese New Year fully, what's the harm? So you teach your children, and yourselves to respect other cultures, and perhaps embrace some of them in your own life? I think that can only be a good thing.

Personally, I have no idea if kids are in my future. I think I'd like children, but only if I have the confidence that I could provide the kind of life I would like for them to have. I'm not talking about just money here, but stability and a loving family.

Davyhal

DazMarz, you have word-for-word said the thoughts that used often go through my head a few years back. When I was 20, I was out-ed (never got the chance to come out!), and all my friends were so supportive. They all asked why I had never told them. It was at that point that my fears changed... Before my fears were "Will my friends accept me, surely they won't etc.", but as soon as that fear was gone, it was replaced with "I am gay, and I now I must live as a gay man"... My friends were all supportive with the fact that I liked boys, but none of them could answer "Will I ever have kids now". I also come from an old-fashioned background, and dreamed of having my own kid, biologically my kid. Since then, it was something I just kinda pushed away out of my head because I knew there was no real solution. At times I think back to the girlfriend I had when I was 19 and when she had a pregnancy "scare". I now hate that phrase, and sometimes look back thinking, that could have been my last chance etc. But then again, if she had been pregnant, would I still be with her? Would I never have had the chance to live as a gay man, would I have lived in denial for the rest of my days. Happy in one way, but miserable in another? However, in the few short years since all that happened (I am now 24), I have seen my friends dote on their nieces and nephews, and see that you can love kids that are not your own. Another eye-opener was when I discovered that one of my best friends is adopted. He has been contacted by his biological parents, and he has politely refused to meet them, but he has exchanged contact details in case he decides to meet them down the line. I asked why he did not want to meet them. His response was "I have a dad, and I love him more than anyone else in the world. He's my best friend, and I don't care if he is not my birth dad, he's all I need"... Completely changed my view of adoption. So that gives me hope for the future. But still, I am only 24, recently single etc.... I have no place thinking about kids etc at the moment, so best not to worry about it for another decade or so!!! (God I hope that made sense and that I was not rambling too much!!!)

floggg

Reading this, I'm thinking **** it - I want to be able to have a family in the future and to offer a loving home to a kid in need.

Anybody have any info on how I can contribute or get involved with any advocacy campaigns re gay marriage/adoption and parenting rights?

No point in sitting back waiting in hope when I can do something to make it happen.

Slang_Tang

floggg wrote: »

Reading this, I'm thinking **** it - I want to be able to have a family in the future and to offer a loving home to a kid in need.

Anybody have any info on how I can contribute or get involved with any advocacy campaigns re gay marriage/adoption and parenting rights?

No point in sitting back waiting in hope when I can do something to make it happen.

Try LGBT Noise. Or Marriage Equality.

Slang_Tang

Same-sex adoption in the EU. I tried to format this properly, but failed miserably.

The first one is "LGBT Individual May Petition to Adopt", the second is "Same-Sex Couple May Jointly Petition to Adopt", the third is "Same-Sex Partner May Petition to Adopt Partner's Child", and the fourth is "Same-Sex Couples Allowed to Foster or Stepchild Foster".

I've put countries where full same-sex marriage is legal in red.

Belgium Yes Yes Yes Yes
Denmark Yes Yes Yes Yes
Estonia Yes No No Yes
Finland Yes No Yes Yes
France Yes No Yes Yes
Germany Yes No Yes Yes
Iceland Yes Yes Yes Yes
Ireland Yes No No Yes
Italy No No No No
Latvia Yes No No No
Lithuania No No No No
Netherlands Yes Yes Yes Yes
Norway Yes Yes Yes Yes
Poland Yes No No No
Portugal Yes No No No
Spain Yes Yes Yes Yes
Sweden Yes Yes Yes Yes
U.K. Yes Yes Yes Yes

Intouch9

Does anybody know any gay guys that have adopted as individuals?