Soloheadbeg

bobster453

For anyone interested the annual Soloheadbeg commemoration is on this Sunday 22nd January at 2.30pm, meet at Coffeys Forge.
http://maps.google.ie/maps/ms?msid=208145161030400063649.0004b6d5d865741bb693c&msa=0&ll=52.523038,-8.183591&spn=0.040107,0.077162

digzy

its gas how all the auld heroes love this crap.
there was a documentary on tg4 about the irish guys who were murdered by our local terrorists a while back.anyone should watch it.it's good to see the other side of things and makes one think.they were regular guys doing a public sector type job, who'd families etc......
of course one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter

SARZY

It might be 'crap' for you.

For others its history and a proud one at that.

So, hide behind the anonimity of the boards and carry on throwing your crap.

You dont bother anyone except yourself.

digzy

SARZY wrote: »

It might be 'crap' for you.

For others its history and a proud one at that.

So, hide behind the anonimity of the boards and carry on throwing your crap.

You dont bother anyone except yourself.

oops. didn't anyone tell you it's a CHAT FORUM.
Like anywhere people have different interpretations of history. I've mine.
Fellas who go on these things have a pop at the orange order and their marches also! The hypocrasy of it:rolleyes:. Orange marches are part of loyalist history.....most certainly doesn't make them right.

seriously, do a bit of research on the topic. you might be surprised!
the irish RIC guys were transporting gelignite explosive for mining. dan breen and co MURDERED them in cold blood. do you honestly thing the outnumbered RIC men stood up as they were executed saying 'for queen and country'? I think not! why didn't the yahoos take them prisoner or just simply take the explosives.
The yahoos were NOT acting under orders....totally their own initiative.

as regards the 'username' thing i dont see too many john ryans or paddy burkes on here....sarzy.

I achieved an A1 in my history in the LC. I've moved on into other discliplines since. Trust me. I know the facts

now run along outside croke park with your celtic tracksuit and 'no to foreign games' sign. I've better things to do:D

SARZY

O that explains it.

YOU have a degree and are smarter than everyone.

O learned one. Nobody else knows the facts, Only you.

The rest of us are thick.

I understand you now.

DaveJac

id agree with digzy was no need to kill the RIC men, I think it was done for 1 of 2 reasons dan breen and co didnt really know what they were doing/scared **** less and fired, or they wanted to make a name for them selves be more than just the local lads down in tipp. cant change history anyway everyone has there own views what can ya do

Insect Overlord

Mos note: digzy and SARZY, cop on or ye can both take a break from the forum.

clansman

It was a different time back then!
I would imagine that the Royal Irish Constabulary men didn't like their jobs but had to work(for family etc). James McDonnell and Patrick O'Connell had to know that their job was very dangerous(transporting gelignite in a hostile country) They would have also known about the unrest in the rural Ireland.
My grandfather and grand uncles were in the IRA in the region and going from the story's told to me from my mother anyone working from the British were considered the enemy. The Black and Tans were know for attacks on civilians in rural areas for no reason at all, apart to terrorise people.

From Dan Breen's book they shouted hands up and the RIC men raised their guns. That was only going to lead to one out come if the story is true!

Ignoring Dan Breen's book;
Should they have been shot, no!
Should they have been in the RIC and transporting gelignite in a region that was terrorised by the RIC's henchman, definitely NO! (what did they except!!! tea and biscuits???)

my 2 cent

Amtmann

clansman wrote: »

From Dan Breen's book they shouted hands up and the RIC men raised their guns. That was only going to lead to one out come if the story is true!

I am open to correction here, but my understanding is that the policemen were unarmed.

digzy

Tremelo wrote: »

I am open to correction here, but my understanding is that the policemen were unarmed.

dont let the facts get in the way of a good story(esp dan breens);)tbf i cant remember. if they were armed they didn't make best use of them!

It's one of the worst books i ever read. I dont think it's ever been recognised as an historical oracle afaik!

Amtmann

An assertion that they were unarmed is contained here.

deejer

@digzy: I bit my lip when I saw your first post. I thought let him off he is only looking for a rise. The OP said for anyone interested, you obviously arent so can keep your comments to yourself.

But how dare you call these men murderers. They were fighting for their countries freedom and this small but significant incident in Soloheadbeg was part of the process that saw us gain our independence. As Treacy said the only way of starting a war was to kill someone. The unfortunate truth of the matter was the only way left to gain independence was to fight. The English had no intention of just handing it back.

Sean Treacy died fighting for his country, Dan Breen spent his life serving it. That should leave you in no doubt as to why those men took the actions they did in Solohead that day.

Alot of people where killed on both sides. Alot more Irish of course. Im sure your A1 in history thought you that. What your A1 didnt teach you was that you should have a bit more respect for the people who helped forge this country that you now enjoy living in.

Lastly, I dont have a Celtic cross tracksuit, and I was delighted to see "foreign sports" in Croke park. But on the third sunday of January every year, when I am able, I go to Soloheadbeg to remember those men who fought and died on both sides. Perhaps one day you might do the same and learn a bit of real history.

WhyGoBald

The RIC were definitely armed, every account from the time verifies that, and no police went anywhere without an array of weaponry. They were, after all, a paramilitary outfit. If I remember correctly, the inquest showed that the position of their bodies indicated that they had indeed been in the act of firing when they were shot. Having read accounts by the participants that day there is no doubt that the aim of the ambush was to capture the gelignite, not to kill, though of course they had to know that was a possibility.

As I see it, Soloheadbeg is commemorated, not because it was significant militarily or even particularly admirable, but because it coincided with the first meeting of the country's first free parliament and so marked the beginning of the war, and because it is a way to mark the contribution of the Third Tipperary Brigade to the war.

digzy

WhyGoBald wrote: »

The RIC were definitely armed, every account from the time verifies that, and no police went anywhere without an array of weaponry. They were, after all, a paramilitary outfit.no they weren't. just cos we all have a negative opinion of them now that is factually incorrect. If I remember correctly, the inquest are you serious :rolleyes:showed that the position of their bodies indicated that they had indeed been in the act of firing when they were shot.didn't realise csi were about back then Having read accounts by the participants that day there is no doubt that the aim of the ambush was to capture the gelignite, not to kill,wrong again, sean treacy or breen stated that he was sorry there wasn't 6 ric men there as opposed to 2 though of course they had to know that was a possibility.

As I see it, Soloheadbeg is commemorated, not because it was significant militarily or even particularly admirable, but because it coincided with the first meeting of the country's first free parliament and so marked the beginning of the war, and because it is a way to mark the contribution of the Third Tipperary Brigade to the war.

Thats fair enough:D

WhyGoBald

They were, after all, a paramilitary outfit.no they weren't. just cos we all have a negative opinion of them now that is factually incorrect.

It's not a derogatory term; it's a matter of fact. Several sources refer to them as such (Google "paramilitary" and "RIC" for a quick start); here is a dictionary defintion of the word: 1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) denoting or relating to a group of personnel with military structure functioning either as a civil force or in support of military forces.

the aim of the ambush was to capture the gelignite, not to kill,wrong again, sean treacy or breen stated that he was sorry there wasn't 6 ric men there as opposed to 2 though of course they had to know that was a possibility.

Dan Breen quoted Seán Treacy as saying something of the sort; however, his account does not stand up when compared to other statements about the day. His book should not be taken as factual, but his Bureau of Military History statement is more interesting and less given to sensational nonsense.

digzy

WhyGoBald wrote: »

It's not a derogatory term; it's a matter of fact. Several sources refer to them as such (Google "paramilitary" and "RIC" for a quick start); here is a dictionary defintion of the word: 1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) denoting or relating to a group of personnel with military structure functioning either as a civil force or in support of military forces.


Dan Breen quoted Seán Treacy as saying something of the sort; however, his account does not stand up when compared to other statements about the day. His book should not be taken as factual, but his Bureau of Military History statement is more interesting and less given to sensational nonsense.

if thats your understanding of the word 'Paramilitary' fair enough.Looks like the gardai are a paramilitary force so:rolleyes:

Here, try this one i plucked from wikipedia which is from the oxford english dictionary
A paramilitary is a force whose function and organization are similar to those of a professional military, but which is not considered part of a state's formal armed forces.[1

Just to clarify the ric and the black n tans aint the same!


just in case you're under any illusions check out youtube, dan breen-his very own words!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty_U6U8iiTg

From 20sec to 40 secs!


Keep on digging.......:D

clansman

digzy wrote: »

Just to clarify the ric and the black n tans aint the same!

who said they were?

oh by the way the sky is blue!

digzy I think you are missing the point. The RIC had no right to be "policing" this country!
Also have you read the OP
"For anyone interested the annual Soloheadbeg commemoration..."

I am proud of what my country man did all them years ago. They were willing to give their lives (and a lot did) for a free Ireland. You might call them "terrorists" but have you asked your self why?,...mmm why do u call them terrorists??? mmm
what made that generation of young men to take up arms....
With all your education you must have a logically reason? ah sure they wanted to make a name for them self... sure it was all the rage back then to get executed by the British. Running around the country side with guns sounds like good crack.... Maybe they had feck all to do after mass.....mmmm

Come on digzy use your smarts!!!

digzy

clansman wrote: »

who said they were?

oh by the way the sky is blue!

digzy I think you are missing the point. The RIC had no right to be "policing" this country!
Also have you read the OP
"For anyone interested the annual Soloheadbeg commemoration..."

I am proud of what my country man did all them years ago. They were willing to give their lives (and a lot did) for a free Ireland. You might call them "terrorists" but have you asked your self why?,...mmm why do u call them terrorists??? mmm
what made that generation of young men to take up arms....
With all your education you must have a logically reason? ah sure they wanted to make a name for them self... sure it was all the rage back then to get executed by the British. Running around the country side with guns sounds like good crack.... Maybe they had feck all to do after mass.....mmmm

Come on digzy use your smarts!!!

I aint the one calling the RIC paramilitaries. I'll save that term for the mercenaries that followed, black n tans and auxillaries etc.
Do you not realise that the RIC was made up of mostly irish people up to the war. There's a difference.They were the legitimate police force at the time-an inconvenient truth i know:rolleyes: Subsequently irishmen withdrew due to the war of independance as their lives were under threat.it was then filled with brits who obviously were widely hated. The war was a movement, the sparks of which were lit in 1916.it gathered momentum afterwards, especially after the atrociries carried out by the british forces which drew normally peace-loving into the conflict.

I would have agreed with most of your perspective on things.....back when i was 12. Do a little research on this one incident. you'll find that the local population were split at the time over the 'shootings'..unlike this forum.it's easy to look back now with green tinted glasses. the brits and their organs were baddies dan breen and co were heroes. By the same logic should the 'insurgents' not also have targeted teachers and civil servants....sure the shopkeepers who traded with them too.

this thread has taken on a life of its own. i must admit i lobbed in a grenade for a laugh. it's gas to see how upset some of you are getting about something of which so many of you dont know the full facts.

consider this.
A group of insurgents mount an attack against what they percieve as an organ of an illegal state-police . Their reason was to acquire a 'bounty' which they felt was required to further their cause which was to free Ireland of an illegal occupier.they had no sanction to carry out the operation from their leaders.now sub in what happened in adare with garda gerry mccabe.....Is there that much in the difference.Look at the reaction from us to the actions of pierse mcauley and co....

Dont get me wrong. I admire breens soldiering ability, determination and singlemindedness. his interviews would really stir the heart. Indeed i agree with many of your statements re how their actions were necessary.
However, the thread is called sologheadbeg. If you want to commemorate it as part of the wider war of independance fair enough.I just feel it is important to know the facts. see the incident from the families of the two IRISH victims.I think the incident is quite sad. irishmen shooting irishmen aint worth celebrating.we dont celebrate the atrocities in the civil war either.
I just wonder how many of the same lads at the commemoration will be trotting into whites afterwards to have their fill of beer, sing a few rebel songs and then watch bolton v blackburn on tv.
The real heroes will be the ones who head home to milk their cows, spend time with their kids etc. The ones who make a contribution to society.
They're the patriots to me.

deejer

digzy wrote: »

I think the incident is quite sad. irishmen shooting irishmen aint worth celebrating.we dont celebrate the atrocities in the civil war either.

For someone who is so particular with their words and so well educated can I just point out that there is a difference between celebrate and commemorate.
What happened back then is a very important part of our history and is part of who we are as a people today. It certainly should not be forgotten which is why we commemorate it each year. It is a way of remembering men like Sean Treacy, Dan Breen AND the two RIC men McDonnell and O'Connell.

You keep throwing your superior education out there as a reason why your view is the correct one and you simply come across as ignorant. You came on here making a couple of wild statements. What kind of response did you expect.

And I tell ya I have never been called a patriot for milking cows before. Thats a new one

digzy

deejer wrote: »

For someone who is so particular with their words and so well educated-thought most of us did the leaving cert;)-it's the only reference i made to education- can I just point out that there is a difference between celebrate and commemorate.
What happened back then is a very important part of our history and is part of who we are as a people today. It certainly should not be forgotten which is why we commemorate it each year. It is a way of remembering men like Sean Treacy, Dan Breen AND the two RIC men McDonnell and O'Connell.

You keep throwing your superior education out there-no i dont. one mention in my second post- as a reason why your view is the correct one and you simply come across as ignorant. You came on here making a couple of wild statements. What kind of response did you expect.

And I tell ya I have never been called a patriot for milking cows before. Thats a new one

it aint silicon valley out there now is it!



The only point i'm making is find out what happened. then you'll know why you should celebrate it, commemorate it or ignore it:rolleyes:

digzy

clansman wrote: »

who said they were?

oh by the way the sky is blue!

digzy I think you are missing the point. The RIC had no right to be "policing" this country!
Also have you read the OP
"For anyone interested the annual Soloheadbeg commemoration..."

I am proud of what my country man did all them years ago. They were willing to give their lives (and a lot did) for a free Ireland. You might call them "terrorists" but have you asked your self why?,...mmm why do u call them terrorists??? mmm
what made that generation of young men to take up arms....
With all your education you must have a logically reason? ah sure they wanted to make a name for them self... sure it was all the rage back then to get executed by the British. Running around the country side with guns sounds like good crack.... Maybe they had feck all to do after mass.....mmmm

Come on digzy use your smarts!!!

Have a look at some of our most famous revolutionaries even up to the present day. you'll find most of them come from working class backgrounds.It's a fact.

There's other ways to achieve regime change that shooting your fellow countrymen, simples. There was a fella in India a few years back, went by gandhi i believe.....;)

deejer

digzy wrote: »

it aint silicon valley out there now is it!



The only point i'm making is find out what happened. then you'll know why you should celebrate it, commemorate it or ignore it:rolleyes:

I know exactly what happened. And I choose to commemorate it along with alot of other people.

Get over it.

Fed up of all your pointless smart comments at this stage.

Insect Overlord

Mod Note: Digzy, please don't post in this thread again.

Xenophile

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Mod Note: Digzy, please don't post in this thread again.

Looking through this thread, it is my contention that Digzy should not have been singled out for special treatment. I suggest the thread be closed and let the contributors if they wish make their comments in the History and Heritage forum.

digzy

A fella once said

'never argue with idiots. they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience'

:eek:

deejer

digzy wrote: »

A fella once said

'never argue with idiots. they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience'

:eek:

Thanks for proving the mod right. See ya

Insect Overlord

Red card for Xenophile for back-seat modding and deliberatey taking the thread off-topic.

Red card and a 2 week ban for digzy for a) personal abuse, b) deliberately ignoring one warning and c) continuing to post in an aggressive fashion after an earlier on-thread warning.

Now, back to Soloheadbeg...

SARZY

I wont 'lob a grenade' like the banned man digsy, but I will say this, that I listened to Dan Breen on those youtube interviews and I believe he held his views sincerely and I believe, as he said, that the people in rural Ireland had a servile mentality due to being beaten down and deprived and that he and his comrades were doing the only thing they knew to try and change things for the better.

I admire those men and long may the commemmoration continue in that place Soloheadbeg.

bobster453

WOW..I just came back to this thread now...all I was doing was making people aware of when the Commemoration was on...

Having read thro it though, I think it fair to surmise that digzy, while using inflammatory comments, was merely pointing out that the RIC had families etc and didnt deserve to die which at this stage is a moot point.

It must be remembered tho that as well as Sean Treacy,Sean Robinson and Dan Breen wanting to gain explosives and in the words of Dan Breen himself, effectively kick start the War of Independence as they believed the leaders in Dublin were slow in getting going, that Dan Breen was known to one of the Constables and therefore afraid that he would be recognised, thus sealing their fates regardless of whether they were armed or not.
What is often forgotten too is that the Dail leaders were less than impressed with Soloheadbeg as they did not believe they were sufficiently strong at that point to tackle the Establishment and wished to wait until they had gained in strength, indeed according to Ernie O'Malley in his book "On Another Mans Wound", the only person of note who was delighted with what happened in Soloheadbeg was Michael Collins who fairly danced a jig when he heard about it.

BTW..There was a good turnout this year at the commemoration.

digzy

For anyone who's interested in a few facts there's a good show on tv3 now.
'in the name of the republic'

sticksman

digzy wrote: »

dont let the facts get in the way of a good story(esp dan breens);)tbf i cant remember. if they were armed they didn't make best use of them!

It's one of the worst books i ever read. I dont think it's ever been recognised as an historical oracle afaik!

digzy wrote:

just in case you're under any illusions check out youtube, dan breen-his very own words!

So on the one hand Breens own words can be taken as fact on video yet his book is a pile of rubbish and lies. The only one digging holes here is yourself.