Should Rush be evacuated?

Cardinal Richelieu

Well reading this weeks Fingal Indo anyone living in or near a pyrite estate in NCD that has gas is in danger! It makes me wonder why we haven't evacuated these houses before someone walking by with the dog ends up with the patio doors wrapped around their neck when the house explodes, not forgetting the family inside. Shocking piece of sensationalist journalism IMHO with no building professional input into the article. Besides that how can a house have a disease?

Fingal Indo

Falling apart - one desperate family's fears
DESPERATE FINGAL FAMILY'S FEARS AS HOME CRUMBLES AROUND THEM

By JOHN MANNING
Tuesday January 17 2012
A DESPERATE Fingal family say they live in constant fear of gas explosions and contaminated water supply as they struggle to survive in a home that has been devastated by pyrite and is crumbling around them. In scenes repeated all over Fingal, Niamh Byrne and her young family say they are living a 'nightmare' that sees the walls, ceilings and floors of the property crack ever further, with precious little help for a family effectively trapped in a crumbling home. With children aged seven and three, it is a worrying time according to mum, Niamh who said: 'We constantly worry about the possibility of a gas leak or explosion. Or our sewage leaking under the floor, or contamination to our drinking water. These are not things you should have to worry about in an eight-year-old house. ' The cracking in our house has now moved to the external walls which indicates that the movement and stress on the walls of the house is affecting the very structure and the problem is becoming even more urgent.' Waiting for a Government report on the pyrite crisis affecting many homes in Fingal, Niamh said: 'All we want is our house fixed so we can get on with our lives, which have effectively been on hold for the last four years. A RUSH family say they are living a ' nightmare' inside a pyrite-riddled home that is slowly crumbling around them and have come up against ' brick wall after brick wall' in trying to resolve the problem. Niamh Byrne lives with her husband and two young children in a house in Rush that has been devastated by the mineral disease that cracks floors, ceilings and walls of the homes it infects. In December of 2003, Niamh and her family began what they thought was a new dream life in Rush in their €200,000 home but the dream has turned to a nightmare for the last four years as the family watched the cracks in its home get wider and longer. Speaking to the Fingal Independent, Niamh said: ' When we should have been enjoying our young children we have had to fight tooth and nail to try to get our house fixed. Still nothing has been done - the condition has to be seen to be believed. ' This was our first house and we bought it while we were expecting our first child. We were naturally excited but that excitement has turned into a nightmare as we have discovered that we would have more consumer rights if we had bought a washing machine.' Niamh, who is now part of the Pyrite Action Group fighting for compensation and justice for homeowners affected by the problem, said: 'I have been struggling as a homeowner with the issue for over four years now. 'In that time we have exhausted every avenue available to us and come up against brick wall after brick wall.' On the very day that Niamh and her family received a positive test result for pyrite, the company that built their estate went into liquidation which cut off the first port of call for the family in their search for a solution to the problem. Next was the insurer, Homebond, but thanks to a court case which held the quarry that produced the pyrite-affected stone responsible for the damage and the insurer pleading poverty to an avalanche of claims, Homebond offered a measly €1,300 as a 'full and final settlement' to the Rush family. According to Niamh, the insurers, on their first visit to the home in June, tried to argue that the cracking was because of shrinkage caused by excessive heating due to the arrival of a new-born baby in the house. The Rush family said they had to insist on a pyrite test before one was carried out which, sadly for them, turned out to be positive. The figure offered as a settlement by Homebond is dwarfed by estimates the Rush family have received for fixing their pyrite problem which range between a staggering €30,000 and €50,000. It is a life of constant worry trapped inside a pyrite affected home. The Rush family cannot afford to move - they are already paying €900 a month for a mortgage on a home they admit now is 'worthless' and cannot afford to pay rent for another property on top of that. With children aged seven and three, it is a worrying time according to mum, Niamh who said: 'We constantly worry about the possibility of a gas leak or explosion. 'Or our sewage leaking under the floor or contamination to our drinking water. These are not things you should have to worry about in an eight-year-old house. ' The cracking in our house has now moved to the external walls which indicates that the movement and stress on the walls of the house is affecting the very structure and the problem is becoming even more urgent.' The Rush family along with the many homeowners in Fingal affected by Pyrite are anxiously waiting for an imminent report on the problem by a committee set up by the current Government. Niamh said: ' The Government set up the Pyrite Panel to look into the issues that are affecting homeowners and to see if a solution could be reached. ' This report is due in February but we are anxious that this report is not left on the shelf to gather dust. 'All we want is our house fixed so that we can get on with our lives which have effectively been on hold for the last four years. 'I for one am desperate for a solution. I don't think I can take much more of watching our house crumble before our eyes as we struggle to pay a mortgage on a house that is worthless. It is heartbreaking.'
- JOHN MANNING

I would hate to be in their position but this story is just blow up(excuse the pun)out of proportion. I have friends who were in the same boat, purchased a house only to discover pyrite, 2 years later only one working door in the house and the upstairs floor bowed in the middle. They fortunately managed to get the foundations replaced by the builder but no one knows if that will really work in the long term. How bad is the pyrite issue in Rush?

Victor

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

explodes

This is a gross exaggeration.

Cardinal Richelieu

Victor wrote: »

This is a gross exaggeration.

My point exactly.

focus_mad

Gas explosions..disease...contamination...nightmare..fear..

Did this journalist try and win a creative writing contest?

Taylor's Point was badly affected but was eventually sorted. Compensation and all.

What estate is it that the resident lives in?

I'm still trying to work out how having gas puts them in danger? In that case everyone with a gas cooker / hob is in danger!!!

Also why all of Rush? It is only a number of houses that had material sourced from particular quarries

LeoB

Victor wrote: »

This is a gross exaggeration.

Is it? What if the gas pipes are going under the floor when it expands or contracts? Could they not cause a gas leak? Just asking!!!!

focus_mad wrote: »

Gas explosions..disease...contamination...nightmare..fear..

Did this journalist try and win a creative writing contest?

Dont know if he did but I have spoken to a few families who are in the same situation and they are shattered by the whole episode, they see no way out as apparently homebond have more or less washed their hands of this issue.

focus_mad wrote: »

Taylor's Point was badly affected but was eventually sorted. Compensation and all.

What estate is it that the resident lives in?

Seems Tayleurs Point were the lucky ones. I know the family quoted above, lovely people who are being put the mill big time. One resident told me Homebond dont want to know and he does not know what he is going to do.

focus_mad wrote: »

I'm still trying to work out how having gas puts them in danger? In that case everyone with a gas cooker / hob is in danger!!!

Also why all of Rush? It is only a number of houses that had material sourced from particular quarries

Was Tayleurs Point and Ravenswell/Thornchase built by same builder?

Ravenswell and Thornchase are in ribbons at the moment. If all the houses have it Ravenswell 67 and Thornchase 94 that is 161 houses. The familyin the article above live in this area and I have spoken to people from both estates and each family I spoke to has it. That is one serious bill for repairs. Where is the money for this going to come from? People have lost jobs, taken serious cuts in pay and benefits and can hardly manage to meet current repayments so how are they going to fund the repairs?
They are more deserving of a bailout than than the bankers.

As I see it 2 things can happen.
1) These people paid big money for these homes and owner occupiers should be looked after immediatley. If Homebond wont pay up maybe they should be given back the money that went in levies at the time of purchase.

2) The builder/developer and supplier of the material should get hammed in court

tiddlepops

I live in Thorn Chase and I dont have any pyrite thank god.. my house was built in the first phase. Its only the 2nd phase that seems to have it

LeoB

tiddlepops wrote: »

I live in Thorn Chase and I dont have any pyrite thank god.. my house was built in the first phase. Its only the 2nd phase that seems to have it

Well its good to hear not all the houses have it. So Palmer Rd side was built 1st around same time as Ravenswell?

Cardinal Richelieu

LeoB wrote: »

1) These people paid big money for these homes and owner occupiers should be looked after immediatley. If Homebond wont pay up maybe they should be given back the money that went in levies at the time of purchase

Not going to happen, Homebond don't have the money to do what the homeowners want, which is their money back, most at peak Celtic Tiger Prices. The levies are all spent or disappeared with the bankrupt builder. Even if the government backed up Homebond your talking about houses across 6 counties at least and an est. 20,000 householders so the sums are scary. What do the government do with these pyrite estates, clear them and turn them back into farmland? Board them up? Give them to the army for target practice?

LeoB wrote: »

2) The builder/developer and supplier of the material should get hammed in court

Going to take years and countless well paid legal careers will be built by this case before we hear anything.

LeoB

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

Not going to happen, Homebond don't have the money to do what the homeowners want, which is their money back, most at peak Celtic Tiger Prices. The levies are all spent or disappeared with the bankrupt builder. Even if the government backed up Homebond your talking about houses across 6 counties at least and an est. 20,000 householders so the sums are scary. What do the government do with these pyrite estates, clear them and turn them back into farmland? Board them up? Give them to the army for target practice? .

What we cant od is abandon the people who now find their lives in tatters. I think it would certainly go better with people to sting a few bond holders and look after these people.

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

Going to take years and countless well paid legal careers will be built by this case before we hear anything.

Agree with you here but we must then put in place something to ensure this cant happen again.

tiddlepops

LeoB wrote: »

Well its good to hear not all the houses have it. So Palmer Rd side was built 1st around same time as Ravenswell?

Half of the clifflands side of Thorn Chase ( the lower house numbers ) was built before Palmer road side and then the higher number of clifflands ide of thorn chase along with Raveswell

nicebutdim

As someone eho actually is living with this nightmare, I might be able to add something to this conversation. Please bear in mind that this topic has/may have legal ramifications, and despite the unremitting anger I have when this topic is discussed, I have to be cogniscent of this.

In general, Homebond are blaming the quarries as a legal case has concluded that the quarries are to blame.

As stated previously, Homebond would not be able to pay up to fix the houses as there are approx 20,000 houses with this problem in Ireland ( although bear in mind that there was enough aggregate taken out of the quarries affected to potentially affect 60,000 houses ). The average cost of repair is € 50,000 per house.

For many people like me, the developers, quarries, builders etc have all gone out of business ( or f*cked off out of the country ) so Homebond are the only course for remediation

Homebond have refused to deal with the Pyrite Panel set up by the Joint Houses of the Oireachtas committee

I'm stopping now as I can hear nothing but the blood thundering in my head!But do feel free to ask questions and I'll answer them as best as I know how

nicebutdim

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

Not going to happen, Homebond don't have the money to do what the homeowners want, which is their money back, most at peak Celtic Tiger Prices. The levies are all spent or disappeared with the bankrupt builder. Even if the government backed up Homebond your talking about houses across 6 counties at least and an est. 20,000 householders so the sums are scary. What do the government do with these pyrite estates, clear them and turn them back into farmland? Board them up? Give them to the army for target practice?



Going to take years and countless well paid legal careers will be built by this case before we hear anything.

As one of the Pyrite homeowners, and I believe that I speak for many others, I am not looking for my money back. What I want is for my house to be fixed, plain and simple.

nicebutdim

Cardinal Richelieu wrote: »

Well reading this weeks Fingal Indo anyone living in or near a pyrite estate in NCD that has gas is in danger! It makes me wonder why we haven't evacuated these houses before someone walking by with the dog ends up with the patio doors wrapped around their neck when the house explodes, not forgetting the family inside. Shocking piece of sensationalist journalism IMHO with no building professional input into the article. Besides that how can a house have a disease?

Fingal Indo


I would hate to be in their position but this story is just blow up(excuse the pun)out of proportion. I have friends who were in the same boat, purchased a house only to discover pyrite, 2 years later only one working door in the house and the upstairs floor bowed in the middle. They fortunately managed to get the foundations replaced by the builder but no one knows if that will really work in the long term. How bad is the pyrite issue in Rush?

Busy to-day !!

To briefly explain what happens with Pyrite, when it comes in contact with moisture it expands and pushes the concrete slab up under the house and the innards of the house up too. The doors jam as the floors bow upwards and catch the frame. You can imagine people getting trapped in rooms very easily as it forms a pretty effective seal. Also, pipes occupy the space under the house and if this moves it is not unreasonable to suggest that the pipes move too. From personal experience, I can tell you the attic hatch popped up ( with a noise like a gunshot ..... ) and out of its slot as a result of pressure from the house moving.

There are a couple of courses for remediation of the Pyrite issue

1. The pyrite is dug out, while the innards of the houses are supported. All pipework, floors are removed and replaced with new infill material, and the house made good again. This is a complete resolution of the problem

2. There is a method under investigation of sealing the foundations with the Pyrite in place. This is experimental at the moment

LeoB

nicebutdim wrote: »

As one of the Pyrite homeowners, and I believe that I speak for many others, I am not looking for my money back. What I want is for my house to be fixed, plain and simple.

That is what I have heard from quite a few people.

Based on the figure you provided €50,000 x 20,000 we are looking at a bill of around €10.00000000?

The few questions I would ask are
How much did you pay in levies and fees?
How much went to Fingal?
How much went to Central Goverment?
What did Homebond get out of it?

It is not a massive bill when you look at the geographical spread of the houses affected. What will it cost the state if everyone just walked away from their homes? Hand they keys back.

I am not trying to be smart when I say hand the keys back. I have huge sympathy for you and your neighbours. But I feel strongly that the residents must be helped to get their homes back in order.

I wish you and your family all the best

LeoB

nicebutdim

LeoB wrote: »

What we cant od is abandon the people who now find their lives in tatters. I think it would certainly go better with people to sting a few bond holders and look after these people.





Agree with you here but we must then put in place something to ensure this cant happen again.

There were new building regulations put in place to try to ensure this cannot happen again but it is open to question whether they are tight enough. Hopefully this isn't another case of "how little quality can we get away with"

pavcro10

LeoB wrote: »

That is what I have heard from quite a few people.

Based on the figure you provided €50,000 x 20,000 we are looking at a bill of around €10.00000000?

The few questions I would ask are
How much did you pay in levies and fees?
How much went to Fingal?
How much went to Central Goverment?
What did Homebond get out of it?

It is not a massive bill when you look at the geographical spread of the houses affected. What will it cost the state if everyone just walked away from their homes? Hand they keys back.

I am not trying to be smart when I say hand the keys back. I have huge sympathy for you and your neighbours. But I feel strongly that the residents must be helped to get their homes back in order.

I wish you and your family all the best

LeoB

Well said!

nicebutdim

Thanks Leo....

Yes, conservatively € 1bn it is ( could be up to 60,000 houses ). However, if there was some sort of a group scheme, they reckon it could be done for € 30,000 approx. Maybe an idea for a work scheme or something??

In relation to who get what from the purchase price, it depends on who you talk to. Certainly, Homebond don't appear to have covered themselves to offer a Structural guarantee ( ha...structural guarantee.....gales of laughter here ! )

As regards walking away, the debt follows you in any case. And you lose all of the investment you've made to your mortgage.

( Sorry.... I had a longer rant written but lost my internet connection and the post ! The word b@stards came up a lot if that helps ! )

And finally, thanks for your kind words. Hopefully it all gets resolved

MugMugs

Unfortunately in our fair country, its not really feasible but if I had a house affected by this I'd be knocking on the banks door literally stating, we're in this together and if it takes you giving me 30k to get the rest of your mortgage back then so be it. Or utilise the legal support systems you have in house to assist with subrogation for repairs.

I know the debt follows you if you walk away, and not everybody can do this but the alternative for me failing that would be a permanent trip to Oz and the bank left with a useless house and 150k down the swanny.

What's good for the goose..... Or developer as the case may be.

nicebutdim

MugMugs wrote: »

Unfortunately in our fair country, its not really feasible but if I had a house affected by this I'd be knocking on the banks door literally stating, we're in this together and if it takes you giving me 30k to get the rest of your mortgage back then so be it. Or utilise the legal support systems you have in house to assist with subrogation for repairs.

I know the debt follows you if you walk away, and not everybody can do this but the alternative for me failing that would be a permanent trip to Oz and the bank left with a useless house and 150k down the swanny.

What's good for the goose..... Or developer as the case may be.

Thanks Mugs.

The problem is that not only will the banks not give the 30k, they won't even lend it! In relation to the Banks' legal support systems, it's a great idea as the banks/other lenders insisted that the builders have this Structural insurance in place but unfortunately, there is no one left to sue in our case bar Homebond. As Homebond have very limited resources, it is a fruitless exercise, making the legal profession richer, with no guarantee of success and even if we win, Homebond won't have the funds to fix the damage after paying off the lawyers.

LeoB

MugMugs wrote: »

Unfortunately in our fair country, its not really feasible but if I had a house affected by this I'd be knocking on the banks door literally stating, we're in this together and if it takes you giving me 30k to get the rest of your mortgage back then so be it. Or utilise the legal support systems you have in house to assist with subrogation for repairs.

I know the debt follows you if you walk away, and not everybody can do this but the alternative for me failing that would be a permanent trip to Oz and the bank left with a useless house and 150k down the swanny.

What's good for the goose..... Or developer as the case may be.

I think there is merit in this.

You agreed with the bank to buy the house? A joint venture so to speak. So they have an interest in getting their money back.. It might mean repayments spread over an extra 2, 3 4, or 5 years but you get your house fixed they get the money a little later. And seeing as we seem to doing more bank bailouts, and considering we the people actually are the major shareholders.

Would be interesting to see what our local T.Ds thought of this at their clinics

Pyrite Princess

focus_mad wrote: »

Gas explosions..disease...contamination...nightmare..fear..

Did this journalist try and win a creative writing contest?

Taylor's Point was badly affected but was eventually sorted. Compensation and all.

What estate is it that the resident lives in?

I'm still trying to work out how having gas puts them in danger? In that case everyone with a gas cooker / hob is in danger!!!

Also why all of Rush? It is only a number of houses that had material sourced from particular quarries

You have been misinformed .... Tayleurs Point Residents have not been compensated and in fact we are still out of pocket to the tune of 4k as we have to pay for all core drilling, engineers reports etc etc out of our own pockets. We had to live through a few years of hell, not knowing if the insurance company, Premier, was ever going to admit liability. You think it's all a gross exaggeration, I would like to see how you would cope with it. One of our neighbours here in Tayleurs Point, prior to his case being accepted, had a gas leak which the insurance company believed to be attributed to the damage caused by pyrite and moved his family out immediately. Another family had their young son experience a bad fall on one of the uplifted tiles in their home. You try raise a young family in those conditions for a few years and then see if you still think this is an exaggerated piece of journalism. Our legal battle is ongoing and we are now entering our 4th year of litigation, so it is far from resolved.....

focus_mad

You have been misinformed .... Tayleurs Point Residents have not been compensated and in fact we are still out of pocket to the tune of 4k as we have to pay for all core drilling, engineers reports etc etc out of our own pockets. We had to live through a few years of hell, not knowing if the insurance company, Premier, was ever going to admit liability.

Perhaps I was, I was told about this by a resident so I was incorrect in making a generalisation.

You think it's all a gross exaggeration, I would like to see how you would cope with it.

We shall both have to wait and see for that.

One of our neighbours here in Tayleurs Point, prior to his case being accepted, had a gas leak which the insurance company believed to be attributed to the damage caused by pyrite and moved his family out immediately.

Believed? The insurance company made the right call on this either way but did they go on and prove it was the pyrite?

Another family had their young son experience a bad fall on one of the uplifted tiles in their home.

How raised was the tile? Would the family not have taken the tiles up or attempted to safeguard it? Very unfortuanate that the youngfella gor hurt though.

You try raise a young family in those conditions for a few years and then see if you still think this is an exaggerated piece of journalism.

After reading the article again I still am of the opinion that it is very exaggerated..We may just have to agree to disagree.

Peew

After reading the article again I still am of the opinion that it is very exaggerated..We may just have to agree to disagree.

I wasn't looking for this subject/thread when I logged on here, I was looking at the history of Rush as I think there is nothing like the area but alas the statement above just got the better of me.
Believe this, P.P is 110% correct in what she says the stress and hassle in dealing these [EMAIL="b@st@rds"]b@st@rds[/EMAIL] on this subject is heartbreaking to say the least for the owners of these homes.
I too am fighting this shower 4 years to have the house put back to spec.:mad:

Cardinal Richelieu

Peew wrote: »

After reading the article again I still am of the opinion that it is very exaggerated..We may just have to agree to disagree.

I wasn't looking for this subject/thread when I logged on here, I was looking at the history of Rush as I think there is nothing like the area but alas the statement above just got the better of me.
Believe this, P.P is 110% correct in what she says the stress and hassle in dealing these [EMAIL="b@st@rds"]b@st@rds[/EMAIL] on this subject is heartbreaking to say the least for the owners of these homes.
I too am fighting this shower 4 years to have the house put back to spec.:mad:

Glad to see someone was reading the thread! I recommend listening to the Fingal Lore links I posted a couple of weeks ago in the History of Rush Thread. They are a little rambling but fascinating to listen to the original Rush accent.