Big 4 or Boutique IB -> Corporate Finance abroad

technoviking

Hi,
The title may be a little misleading but I struggled to phrase my dilemma into a headline.

I am currently 6 months into my Big 4 trainee contract in FS Audit. My career goal is to eventually break into Finance via Equity Research or Boutique Corporate Finance work. (I have prior experience in portfolio management.)
I know that both these avenues like recently qualified ACA's, but I question my competitiveness coming from a non-industry/transactions department in the Big4.
Having said all this, I have made contact with some recruiters and found to be competitive amongst some of the Irish Corporate Finance houses right now.
If my end goal was to end up in "high finance" in NYC/London down the line, which route is more efficient to achieving this goal?
1. Staying in Big 4 and make the jump to Transactions or Industry when possible, be it after qualification or not? (My firm has little, real M&A work)
2. Make the jump now into a small corporate finance house now if the chance arises.

I am starting with CAP1 courses and no exemptions. I value the ACA knowledge I'm acquiring, but obviously not the Audit work, and I am aware an accounting designation is quite important in the aforementioned Finance fields in the UK/Ireland, but they are non-existant in the USA, which is my ultimate goal.

Thoughts?

Jim2007

The financial world is a very big place, what exactly do you mean by 'High Finance'?

technoviking

I suppose I am using it in a broad, vague sense. I would define it as high profile Corporate Finance, Institutional Asset Management, Private Equity, Venture Capital, even MBB Management Consulting etc. One could argue the breadth of that.

I am specifically focused on Bulge Bracket Equity Research and Corporate Finance work dealing with M&A, in the medium term. Something where I can learn quality valuation and strategy skills.

Jim2007

Well the CA should give you a good background for corporate finance and it should not be a disadvantage on the other side either.

One thing you should realize is that the investment side is going through a massive change right now, with the emphasis being on passive investment, meaning that it will be very lean times for the foreseeable future...

tomfoolery60

You are not in too different a position as myself two years ago. A few things:

• You are right that the ACA isn't rated as highly in the USA, if you want to go there a stint in London in the field you want to end up in (corp fin or whatever) would be advantageous
• Corp finance houses hire new ACAs, especially in Ireland and the UK. At the moment with the poor economy they generally don't take them out of audit however, so you might want to try get into your firm's CF or TS practice and move from there.
• If you really don't want the ACA at all then you should be looking to make the move now if you can. Apply to grad programs, etc.

Jim2007

tomfoolery60 wrote: »

You are right that the ACA isn't rated as highly in the USA

For your information ACA (Ireland) is the only Chartered qualification recognized in the States for certification to practice. Neither of the other two are (S or E&W)....

Bury Down The Hatchet

Hey guys, don't want to hijack the thread but I have a question that i'd like to throw out there.

Is it imperative to have worked in a Big4 company to get into the major finance houses in London?

I ask this because I am due to join the Advisory section a Top Ten firm (i.e. The next rung down after GT but still big enough in their own right) in November and will be studying ACA. I will hopefully be getting exposure to whatever corporate finance work they will be handling though my staple diet will be in corporate recovery judging by the state of the economy.

Would I have much chance of getting in with a big firm if I wished to go down that path following completion of the exams?

technoviking

Jim2007 wrote: »

For your information ACA (Ireland) is the only Chartered qualification recognized in the States for certification to practice. Neither of the other two are (S or E&W)....

That is correct, Jim. It is held in high regard in the US, but mainly in accounting, i.e. you wont see an NYC finance recruiter searching for ACA's in America to the same extent as a recruiter in London.

technoviking

tomfoolery60 wrote: »

You are not in too different a position as myself two years ago. A few things:

• You are right that the ACA isn't rated as highly in the USA, if you want to go there a stint in London in the field you want to end up in (corp fin or whatever) would be advantageous
• Corp finance houses hire new ACAs, especially in Ireland and the UK. At the moment with the poor economy they generally don't take them out of audit however, so you might want to try get into your firm's CF or TS practice and move from there.
• If you really don't want the ACA at all then you should be looking to make the move now if you can. Apply to grad programs, etc.

Tomfoolery,
Since you were in a similar situation as myself, what path did you take 2 years later.... if you dont mind me asking.
I plan on approaching somebody in the firm after a year and expressing my interest in the TS branch, but I can see myself having very little leverage as a 1st yr associate in the firm.

Jim2007

technoviking wrote: »

That is correct, Jim. It is held in high regard in the US, but mainly in accounting, i.e. you wont see an NYC finance recruiter searching for ACA's in America to the same extent as a recruiter in NYC.

True and as I have already said, the finance industry is going through a major change right now and as a result there are a lot of very well qualified people out of a job and I doubt they'll find anything soon! As already announced the two major Swiss banks will terminate another 7,000 people in London and NY this year, the majority for the IB and CF areas!

I work in the asset management area here in Switzerland and I have seen many of my colleagues loose their jobs over the last few years, most do not expect to return - in fact two people I know have actually started an apprenticeship in watch making!!!

technoviking

Jim2007 wrote: »

True and as I have already said, the finance industry is going through a major change right now and as a result there are a lot of very well qualified people out of a job and I doubt they'll find anything soon! As already announced the two major Swiss banks will terminate another 7,000 people in London and NY this year, the majority for the IB and CF areas!

I work in the asset management area here in Switzerland and I have seen many of my colleagues loose their jobs over the last few years, most do not expect to return - in fact two people I know have actually started an apprenticeship in watch making!!!

Yeah its quite a scary environment, but I see it as an opportunity to break in, while others are scared away by the negative media and lay-offs.

cerebus

technoviking wrote: »

I suppose I am using it in a broad, vague sense. I would define it as high profile Corporate Finance, Institutional Asset Management, Private Equity, Venture Capital, even MBB Management Consulting etc. One could argue the breadth of that.

This caught my eye so I thought I'd chime in. I work in corp dev for a tech firm in silicon valley, looking at strategic investment/corporate VC opportunities, M&A and corporate strategy, and have a good network across most of the areas you mentioned above. One word of advice I would have is that it helps to be very focused on a specific end goal.

While they can all sort of be lumped under the "high finance" tag you used, in reality you have a pretty wide range of target sectors. There is definitely some commonality across these areas, but there are also some pretty fundamental differences. You might be better served deciding to focus on something (say PE) and then figuring out how best to develop skills/competencies for a role in PE.

As an example, if you are serious about VC I think you would be better off dropping out of your Big 4 accountancy program and plugging into the early stage/entrepreneurial ecosystem in some way (just my opinion based on my experience and understanding of the VC space, so definitely don't take it as the gospel truth - get input from others!).

Two other alternatives to an accounting qualification that I haven't seen mentioned in the thread are the CFA and an MBA. Have you looked into either of these? As an example, an MBA from a good school in Europe/the US (especially the US given your stated interest in working in the US), would help to get you into contention for the kind of roles you are after.

Also, it's important to be realistic in terms of what the competition will be like for most of the interesting roles you are thinking of. For all these front-office bulge-bracket IB, alternative direct investment (PE/VC), IM and MBB gigs you will be going head to head with Ivy League/Oxbridge graduates with significant and impressive extra-curriculars. I'm a firm believer that you can make it happen though, so best of luck!

technoviking

cerebus wrote: »

This caught my eye so I thought I'd chime in. I work in corp dev for a tech firm in silicon valley, looking at strategic investment/corporate VC opportunities, M&A and corporate strategy, and have a good network across most of the areas you mentioned above. One word of advice I would have is that it helps to be very focused on a specific end goal.

While they can all sort of be lumped under the "high finance" tag you used, in reality you have a pretty wide range of target sectors. There is definitely some commonality across these areas, but there are also some pretty fundamental differences. You might be better served deciding to focus on something (say PE) and then figuring out how best to develop skills/competencies for a role in PE.

As an example, if you are serious about VC I think you would be better off dropping out of your Big 4 accountancy program and plugging into the early stage/entrepreneurial ecosystem in some way (just my opinion based on my experience and understanding of the VC space, so definitely don't take it as the gospel truth - get input from others!).

Two other alternatives to an accounting qualification that I haven't seen mentioned in the thread are the CFA and an MBA. Have you looked into either of these? As an example, an MBA from a good school in Europe/the US (especially the US given your stated interest in working in the US), would help to get you into contention for the kind of roles you are after.

Also, it's important to be realistic in terms of what the competition will be like for most of the interesting roles you are thinking of. For all these front-office bulge-bracket IB, alternative direct investment (PE/VC), IM and MBB gigs you will be going head to head with Ivy League/Oxbridge graduates with significant and impressive extra-curriculars. I'm a firm believer that you can make it happen though, so best of luck!

Hi Cerebus,
Thanks for chiming in. I appreciate your opinion with a background like yours. Ultimately, the dream is to be in a strategy and M&A role, be it in F500 or PE. I suppose the exposure within that depends on the industry i.e. Tech is very VC orientated, I assume.)
Regarding Equity Research, I am interested in value investing and figure the ACA qualification carries some weight in London, is not as hell-bent on "prestige" like M&A and PE is, and thirdly, the job market is terrible, so its not a good time for a Non-Ivy leaguer to try and overacheive.

I suppose I've already made up my mind on what i want to do with my life and now its just about finding the opportunity. I have heard all about the prestige and competition for these positions and I have decided not to care what people say, and just go for it.

Lastly, what are your thoughts on cold-emailing bankers. I know its a popular method in small CF houses in America and UK, but would an Irish banker appreciate this effort, or find it "cheeky", for a lack of a better word.

Thank you in advance

ferike1

I have a MSC in finance trying desparately to get transferred out of audit and into finance/transactions. Let me tell you, its tough, so either try get a job in advisory straight away or slog away in the bowels of the audit pit and then hopefully get a job in finance afterwards.

cerebus

technoviking wrote: »

Hi Cerebus,
Thanks for chiming in. I appreciate your opinion with a background like yours. Ultimately, the dream is to be in a strategy and M&A role, be it in F500 or PE.

If you are looking for a strategy/M&A role in either a F500 or PE, then there's a pretty well-trodden path to get there: 2+ years of brand-name IBanking and/or 2+ years of MBB consulting. If you use LinkedIn to do some digging and check the backgrounds of internal strategy/corp dev teams in F500 companies you will find that's pretty common. Often there will be an MBA from a good BSchool in the mix as well. Lots of people use IB/MBB to get into a corporate role, then use that as a stepping stone to a PE/VC gig. It's also possible to transition our of IB/MBB into HF or PE/VC roles directly - but HF/PE/VC firms that do recruit from IB/MBB analyst/associate pools tend to target the top performers.

technoviking wrote: »

Regarding Equity Research, I am interested in value investing and figure the ACA qualification carries some weight in London, is not as hell-bent on "prestige" like M&A and PE is, and thirdly, the job market is terrible, so its not a good time for a Non-Ivy leaguer to try and overacheive.

The ultimate arbiter in the investment management world is whether you can deliver above-average returns for your investors. If you can, you'll find that people will give you money to manage. If IM is where you want to be, start working on developing investment theses, find great value-investment plays and send them to money managers you admire. Run a shadow portfolio and publish it on a blog - let people see how good you are.

technoviking wrote: »

I suppose I've already made up my mind on what i want to do with my life and now its just about finding the opportunity. I have heard all about the prestige and competition for these positions and I have decided not to care what people say, and just go for it.

Good for you. It takes dedication and focus, but it is definitely achievable - I'm a muck savage from the west of Ireland but managed to make my way into a pretty interesting strategy/M&A/corp VC role with a Fortune 200 in the tech sector, working out of silicon valley. My route was slightly different, I put a tech/engineering background together with an MBA - but there are lots of ways to break into these kinds of roles.

technoviking wrote: »

Lastly, what are your thoughts on cold-emailing bankers. I know its a popular method in small CF houses in America and UK, but would an Irish banker appreciate this effort, or find it "cheeky", for a lack of a better word.

I have no idea how an Irish banker would react, but I know that networking is hugely important in most of the world. I can't imagine it would be any different in Ireland.

I would encourage you to think carefully about how to frame anything like that - position yourself as someone interested in learning about the industry/roles/their career path, don't email and say "any chance of a job". People love talking about themselves, so you can build a relationship that way. Networking is a skill like any other - the more you do it, the better you get! Also, use any network you build as a way to find good career mentors and advisors - I have been helped hugely by a handful of people along the way that I stay in touch with and use as a sounding board when it comes to career decisions.

technoviking

cerebus wrote: »

If you are looking for a strategy/M&A role in either a F500 or PE, then there's a pretty well-trodden path to get there: 2+ years of brand-name IBanking and/or 2+ years of MBB consulting. If you use LinkedIn to do some digging and check the backgrounds of internal strategy/corp dev teams in F500 companies you will find that's pretty common. Often there will be an MBA from a good BSchool in the mix as well. Lots of people use IB/MBB to get into a corporate role, then use that as a stepping stone to a PE/VC gig. It's also possible to transition our of IB/MBB into HF or PE/VC roles directly - but HF/PE/VC firms that do recruit from IB/MBB analyst/associate pools tend to target the top performers.



The ultimate arbiter in the investment management world is whether you can deliver above-average returns for your investors. If you can, you'll find that people will give you money to manage. If IM is where you want to be, start working on developing investment theses, find great value-investment plays and send them to money managers you admire. Run a shadow portfolio and publish it on a blog - let people see how good you are.



Good for you. It takes dedication and focus, but it is definitely achievable - I'm a muck savage from the west of Ireland but managed to make my way into a pretty interesting strategy/M&A/corp VC role with a Fortune 200 in the tech sector, working out of silicon valley. My route was slightly different, I put a tech/engineering background together with an MBA - but there are lots of ways to break into these kinds of roles.



I have no idea how an Irish banker would react, but I know that networking is hugely important in most of the world. I can't imagine it would be any different in Ireland.

I would encourage you to think carefully about how to frame anything like that - position yourself as someone interested in learning about the industry/roles/their career path, don't email and say "any chance of a job". People love talking about themselves, so you can build a relationship that way. Networking is a skill like any other - the more you do it, the better you get! Also, use any network you build as a way to find good career mentors and advisors - I have been helped hugely by a handful of people along the way that I stay in touch with and use as a sounding board when it comes to career decisions.

Brilliant advice on all parts, thanks cerebus.