Options, "Do you want money in the ATM's or your 12.5% Corp Tax Rate?!?

HellFireClub

http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/germany-and-france-pushing-for-eu-tax-harmonisation-536372.html

Germany and France are pushing the EU to speed up tax co-ordination efforts, despite Irish and British opposition, and will soon make proposals to harmonise corporate tax rates.

The call is contained in a document to be discussed at the EU summits on January 30 and in March.

The document is understood to contain appeals for a financial transaction tax and a common corporate tax base.

It urges EU institutions and governments to accelerate the process of tax co-ordination in order to foster growth, remove obstacles to the functioning of the single market and preventing tax abuse and harmful tax practices.

The Government here maintains Ireland's low 12.5% corporate tax rate is vital to the Irish economy.

I personally believe that we made a huge mistake standing by this 12.5% CT rate from day one. Nowhere on this earth is a tax rate taken to be a fixed thing that can never be increased, except here in Ireland in relation to our CT rate. Our multinational brethern through the American Chamber of Commerce have scared the utter bejasus out of every Irish government in relation to what they say would happen if we increased it. Meanwhile, we lose an Intel every business quarter, in terms of numbers of folks joining the dole queue, go figure...

It looks to me like this issue might be resolved if we are handed the most fundamental choice that we will be asked to make, as I said in the thead title, "which do you want lads, money in the ATM's or would you prefer to not have that but hold onto your 12.5% CT rate?!?"...

What would we choose I wonder? If previous form is anything to go by, I imagine we'd choose to eat grass and drink from the ponds, once our multinational brethen are accommodated...

Dannyboy83

I had assumed this was why Nick Clegg came to Enda looking for backup on the Tobin Tax ?

Presumably, if we scratch the UK's back with the Tobin tax, they'll scratch our with the CTR (I think NI are trying to match our CTR anyway)

Crazy Horse 6

I want us to grow a pair and lower the corp tax rate down to 10%. Your move Sarko biatch.

wiseguy

Do you want money in the ATM's or your 12.5% Corp Tax Rate?!?

What good is an ATM full of 50s when you are on your arse after being fired as your company that was directly or indirectly involved in exports MNC area of economy is gone. :rolleyes:

The export sector is the only positive left in this economy, go ahead and kill it for the pleasure of Merkozy who have already done enormous harm to this country, the EU and the euro. :mad:

D1stant

HellFireClub wrote: »

I personally believe that we made a huge mistake standing by this 12.5% CT rate from day one. Nowhere on this earth is a tax rate taken to be a fixed thi
It looks to me like this issue might be resolved if we are handed the most fundamental choice that we will be asked to make, as I said in the thead title, "which do you want lads, money in the ATM's or would you prefer to not have that but hold onto your 12.5% CT rate?!?"...

Apples and Oranges comparison

I would like to see a real comnparison of CT rates accross Europe. France beats trhe drum on this, but how much do their FDI companies pay? A lot less than 12.5% in many cases. And just so there is no confusion companies should be named. Example

Google Ireland - revenue/tax paid
Google France - ditto
Intel Ireland -
Alcatel Germany -

etc etc

halkar

I rather have a job that will put the money into ATMs for me. CT should be reduced based on location to allow less developed locations to attract business.

Peanut2011

Let's face it, one of the only remaining attractive packages for Ireland to attract the investment is the CT rate.

Any company setting up in Ireland will automatically going to have higher cost of transport as we are an ISLAND! If the rate was set the same across the EU, what is there to stop any company closing here and moving to France, Germany, Poland.....

They are EU mainland and have much better transportation network, thus reducing the operating cost.

Unfortunately gone are the days when you can quite "educated work force" or good education as these don't matter any more. People are now quicker than ever to get up and go anywhere they can make a living.

So if we give up the CT, what do you think would be next?

Atilathehun

HellFireClub wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/germany-and-france-pushing-for-eu-tax-harmonisation-536372.html



I personally believe that we made a huge mistake standing by this 12.5% CT rate from day one. Nowhere on this earth is a tax rate taken to be a fixed thing that can never be increased, except here in Ireland in relation to our CT rate. Our multinational brethern through the American Chamber of Commerce have scared the utter bejasus out of every Irish government in relation to what they say would happen if we increased it. Meanwhile, we lose an Intel every business quarter, in terms of numbers of folks joining the dole queue, go figure...

It looks to me like this issue might be resolved if we are handed the most fundamental choice that we will be asked to make, as I said in the thead title, "which do you want lads, money in the ATM's or would you prefer to not have that but hold onto your 12.5% CT rate?!?"...

What would we choose I wonder? If previous form is anything to go by, I imagine we'd choose to eat grass and drink from the ponds, once our multinational brethen are accommodated...

Maybe we have two sacred cows at the moment. Corp Tax rate and CP Agreement.
I vote we shoot the second one;)

Padraig Mor

The usual lazy reporting on this subject. The corporate tax BASE is something completely different from the corporate tax RATE. In fact, for all the govt's focus on our tax RATE, harmonising the tax BASE has the potential to be far more damaging to the Irish economy than any rate rise. And while the French/EU/whoever apparently cannot make us change our tax rate (despite all the bluff spouted to the contrary), there is apparently little Ireland can do to prevent tax base harmonisation.

later12

I know which one I don't want. This one.

http://mind.ucsd.edu/syllabi/98-99/logic/falsedichotomy.html

coolshannagh28

Multinationals contribute relatively little in tax or jobs in proportion to their percentage of GDP .

Peanut2011

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Multinationals contribute relatively little in tax or jobs in proportion to their percentage of GDP .

Just examine how many multinationals are in Ireland and how many people they employ. If they were to get up and go, where would you find the jobs to just replace them, never mind trying to create more employment.

giveth

According to this, France has a lower corporate tax rate than Ireland:
http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/effective-eu-corporate-tax-rates

So if those figures are correct, it seems strange for France to be pushing for this so strongly.

BluePlanet

Peanut2011 wrote: »

Just examine how many multinationals are in Ireland and how many people they employ. If they were to get up and go, where would you find the jobs to just replace them, never mind trying to create more employment.

The usual scare mongering.
Not all of the MMC's here will "get up and go".

Some already have (Dell), and it had little or nothing to do with our convenient Tax Haven.

BluePlanet

giveth wrote: »

According to this, France has a lower corporate tax rate than Ireland:
http://www.iiea.com/blogosphere/effective-eu-corporate-tax-rates

So if those figures are correct, it seems strange for France to be pushing for this so strongly.

The OP is about the calculating the Tax BASE, not RATE.

coolshannagh28

We would be dead without the multinationals but American chamber of commerce figures show 600 American firms here at 25% of GDP employing 100000. that is a questionanble return .
Factor in that those employed are highly skilled highly employable people anyway would more focus on our indigenous economy not create more of the lower skilled jobs that reduce dole queues our food and beverage sector a perfect example .
Germanys economy is based on small firms.
Fdi is the easy option .valuable yes but risky and questionable .

BluePlanet

Q&A: Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base

What is it?
The European Commission proposed in March there would be a “CCCTB” – a common system for calculating the tax base of businesses operating in the EU. Firms would be given the option of using a single regime instead of the EU’s 27 different corporate tax systems. The tax bills of companies with offices in Europe would be calculated centrally. Their taxable profits would be split between the member states they operate in according to the size of their business in those countries, which would retain the right to set their own rate of tax.

Why is the EU so keen on a common tax base?
EU taxation commissioner Algirdas Semeta said such a tax base will “make it easier, cheaper and more convenient to do business in the EU”. It is meant to result in less bureaucracy and lower costs of administration for multinationals.

Does it mean every EU country has to have the same tax rate?
No. But the tax base would make it more difficult for international companies to channel revenues into Ireland’s low-tax jurisdiction, meaning the attractiveness of Ireland’s 12.5 per cent corporation tax rate may lessen for US firms which locate here. In May, Taoiseach Enda Kenny said he believed plans to establish such a tax base could introduce tax rate harmonisation by the “back door”.

Does the EU agree with this “back door” theory?
No. In March, Semeta said Irish criticisms of the proposals were based on false assumptions, and dismissed an Ernst Young study for the Department of Finance that warned the plan would slow Ireland’s recovery, eliminate jobs and curtail foreign investment. Semeta said the commission had conducted six studies to ensure the system was fair.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0723/1224301202434.html

In my opinion Irish opposition to this is unethical.
Instead of creating efficiences and fairness among EU states, they want to protect the status quo (Ireland Tax Haven) and essentially stop EU states from integrating.

Tora Bora

BluePlanet wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0723/1224301202434.html

In my opinion Irish opposition to this is unethical.
Instead of creating efficiences and fairness among EU states, they want to protect the status quo (Ireland Tax Haven) and essentially stop EU states from integrating.

Are you saying that all parts of and regions of the EU should be governed with the exact same fiscal rules and conditions?
Are you saying that a tiny island remote from the central commercial, industrial, financial and population centre of Europe, should not have policy flexibility to try to balance out the disadvantages of being just what it is. A tiny, island remote from the centre.
Don't tell me the rules which appropriate for Berlin, Paris, Frankfurt, Hamburg, Vienna, Rome, Madrid, London, etc, are appropriate for Galway, Limerick, Kilkenny, West Kerry, West Clare, etc, etc,.

BluePlanet

Tora Bora wrote: »

Are you saying that all parts of and regions of the EU should be governed with the exact same fiscal rules and conditions?

I'm not sure what you are referring to about fiscal conditions.
But same rules, yes.

Tora Bora wrote: »

Are you saying that a tiny island remote from the central commercial, industrial, financial and population centre of Europe, should not have policy flexibility to try to balance out the disadvantages of being just what it is. A tiny, island remote from the centre.

After CCCTB, Ireland can still set it's own Corp Tax rate if she so chooses.

I'll ask you a question back:
Are you telling me, the 500 million people in the EU, should design fiscal policy around the likes of "Galway, Limerick, Kilkenny, West Kerry, West Clare, etc, etc."?

wiseguy

BluePlanet wrote:

Are you telling me, the 500 million people in the EU, should design fiscal policy around the likes of "Galway, Limerick, Kilkenny, West Kerry, West Clare, etc, etc."?

1. Why should there be a single fiscal policy for a whole continent? even the US has a wide range of state/local taxes etc, you cant have a federal superstate without taking into account regional imbalances and natural handicaps due to geography / climate etc.

2. If the majority dont consider or care for a minority then how is that different to being in an occupied colony / vassal state?


Oh and in case you forgot

Bunreacht wrote:

Article 1
The Irish nation hereby affirms its inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right to choose its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.

sombaht

BluePlanet wrote: »

The usual scare mongering.
Not all of the MMC's here will "get up and go".

Some already have (Dell), and it had little or nothing to do with our convenient Tax Haven.

Why wont they? By your own admission "the attractiveness of Ireland’s 12.5 per cent corporation tax rate may lessen for US firms which locate here."

For the remaining MNs any reduction in the advantages/attractiveness of remaining in Ireland may be the last nail in the coffin for them, and it is doubtful that it will encourage any more MNs to setup here.

Cheers,
sombaht

wiseguy

It would be the last nail in coffin, even Intel boss is now on record of saying out of all the positive reasons they came to Ireland, the only one that is left is corporate taxation.

antoobrien

BluePlanet wrote: »

In my opinion Irish opposition to this is unethical.
Instead of creating efficiences and fairness among EU states, they want to protect the status quo (Ireland Tax Haven) and essentially stop EU states from integrating.

If that's the case, then the dutch will also be against this, as they get a lot of companies funneling tax from Ireland through the Netherlands (because of EU law very little tax/no is paid on this transfer) to Bermuda.

See this article on how Google minimizes it's tax payments (2.4% of its profits according to the article).

As the song goes, money for nothing...

_Kaiser_

BluePlanet wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0723/1224301202434.html

In my opinion Irish opposition to this is unethical.
Instead of creating efficiences and fairness among EU states, they want to protect the status quo (Ireland Tax Haven) and essentially stop EU states from integrating.

I'd love to see an EU-wide survey of the PEOPLE (not the politicians, civil servants or banking system) to see how many citizens are actually in favour of any further integration - or integration at all.

Given how far removed our own TDs are from daily life, I fail to see how having the major decisions "officially" (in practise they already are of course!) made from the halls of Brussels/Berlin would be of any benefit to us or ANY of the smaller/weaker states.

HellFireClub

wiseguy wrote: »

It would be the last nail in coffin, even Intel boss is now on record of saying out of all the positive reasons they came to Ireland, the only one that is left is corporate taxation.

It drives me nuts hearing this lad being quoted. Since the start of the recession, we've lost probably around 80 Intel's in terms of jobs. Where else on this planet do people get told that a tax heading will remain static and will never go up???

Gurgle

I know this is the AH of the politics forum, but this is a serious answer:

I would accept tax harmonization in exchange for EU Federalization of all our bank related debts.

BluePlanet

BluePlanet wrote: »

.............

Some already have (Dell), and it had little or nothing to do with our convenient Tax Haven.

Dell was a sweat shop, most of the workers were low paid performing low skills labour.

Tora Bora

BluePlanet wrote: »

I'm not sure what you are referring to about fiscal conditions.
But same rules, yes.

After CCCTB, Ireland can still set it's own Corp Tax rate if she so chooses.

I'll ask you a question back:
Are you telling me, the 500 million people in the EU, should design fiscal policy around the likes of "Galway, Limerick, Kilkenny, West Kerry, West Clare, etc, etc."?

Im saying, that fiscal policy should be flexible enough to take account of all situations. Im saying, that policies adopted for Berlin and Paris, are quite obviously not appropriate for any part of Ireland never mind the west coast.
Irelands corp tax policy going back decades at this stage, has been a central plank in stimulating good sustainable employment right throughout the country.
Why on earth, particularly in our current climate, would we want to "fix", something which ain't broke!
One more thing, is that corp tax rate is possibly the last remaining fig leaf of independence we have left. Let's keep it, and tell Merkozy, to go fucck off!!!:cool:

Tora Bora

RoverJames wrote: »

Dell was a sweat shop, most of the workers were low paid performing low skills labour.

Several thousand people left Dell, when it closed, absolutely gutted to lose their jobs and livelyhoods.
Your definition of sweat shop conditions, and low pay, quite obviously was not shared by those people, or for that matter many other thousands of people working in factories and assembly lines up and down the country.

Get real!

Godge

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Multinationals contribute relatively little in tax or jobs in proportion to their percentage of GDP .

Social Welfare recipients contribute even less in tax and jobs in proportion to their percentage of GDP - should we get rid of them first?

_Kaiser_

Godge wrote: »

Social Welfare recipients contribute even less in tax and jobs in proportion to their percentage of GDP - should we get rid of them first?

To read some of the posts around here :rolleyes:, you might be surprised how much support you'll find for that kind of talk!

Anita Blow

BluePlanet wrote: »

I'll ask you a question back:
Are you telling me, the 500 million people in the EU, should design fiscal policy around the likes of "Galway, Limerick, Kilkenny, West Kerry, West Clare, etc, etc."?

There's mechanisms in place for EU states to integrate further on their own without then need for the whole EU to do it.
If the other countries want to harmonise their CT Base then they are perfectly entitled to do so.

BluePlanet

Godge wrote: »

Social Welfare recipients contribute even less in tax and jobs in proportion to their percentage of GDP - should we get rid of them first?

SW recipients don't repatriate their "profits".
Infact they probably mostly spend it within a 10 or 20km zone.

BluePlanet

Gurgle wrote: »

I know this is the AH of the politics forum, but this is a serious answer:

I would accept tax harmonization in exchange for EU Federalization of all our bank related debts.

Why would they do that when it's the USA and UK that are our main creditors?

later12

BluePlanet wrote: »

Why would they do that when it's the USA and UK that are our main creditors?

That has nothing to do with his/her point.

Ireland is paying an enormous cost to save its banking system, and largely because of the threat that its downfall might pose to the entire European banking system and to the single currency; not in terms of Irish bank security holdings,but in terms of the banking system's credibility.

I am completely in favour of the Irish banking debt, or part of it, being assumed by a European special purpose vehicle. That, combined with greater European integration, ought to be have been explored from day 1. If the Euro is to survive, and it will, it's most likely that such a scheme will be explored in one form or another.

Count Dooku

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Multinationals contribute relatively little in tax or jobs in proportion to their percentage of GDP .

If MNC's will leave, then GDP will shrink by at least by half or more and debt to GDP will quickly reach 400%

Options, "Do you want money in the ATM's or your 12.5% Corp Tax Rate?!?

Choice in reality is
or lose some money immediately by reducing borrowing
or lose most of money forever, but bit later

Tayla

Personally I'd rather keep the corporation tax rate.

I am sick of these short term solutions for a problem that cannot be solved.

We should just take the pain now and deal with it. At least then we will have a chance.

later12

Count Dooku wrote: »

If MNC's will leave, then GDP will shrink by at least by half or more and debt to GDP will quickly reach 400%

Sorry to be a pain, but do you have calculations or were those numbers extracted from the air?

Count Dooku

later10 wrote: »

Sorry to be a pain, but do you have calculations or were those numbers extracted from the air?

Ireland has a high level of FDI as a percentage of GDP. c.75%, (GNP c.85%) compared to OECD average of 25%, Italy 20%, Spain 35%

In 2007 spend in Irish economy by IDA supported FDI is €15.9b of which salaries €6.8b,
Irish raw materials €2.5b and Irish services €6.6b

http://www.ija.ie/uploads/downloads/japan_ireland/Irish_Economic_Brief_2009-01.pdf

coolshannagh28

Fur coat no knickers no domestic earning power so we sell ourselves out to mnc s

wiseguy

HellFireClub wrote: »

It drives me nuts hearing this lad being quoted. Since the start of the recession, we've lost probably around 80 Intel's in terms of jobs. Where else on this planet do people get told that a tax heading will remain static and will never go up???

Ah yes because we lost so many jobs already, its ok to lose another 200K+ jobs :rolleyes:

Count Dooku

coolshannagh28 wrote: »

Fur coat no knickers no domestic earning power so we sell ourselves out to mnc s

Nobody wants to create export oriented businesses, everybody is looking for quick bucks from retail and property
Foreign-owned firms accounted for 91% of Ireland's tradeable exports in 2009;

coolshannagh28

The numbers are a disgrace must we always sell ourselves short . Fdi is vital to us right now but we must wean ourselves off it and create some wealth of our own