The 400/800 double. Is it the hardest to achieve?

Pisco Sour

Alberto Juantorena won the 400/800 double at the 1976 Olympic Games, but in this day and age is it possible? When you think about the different training that a 400m runner and an 800m undertakes it just doesnt seem possible how somebody could event attempt both at the highest level, not to mention win both.

The 400m runner's training is based around speed work, speed endurance, strength work etc, with one, maybe two "long runs" of around 5km each week during the winter phase of training.

The 800m runner on the other hand has high mileage. Around 70-80 miles a week.

The training for an elite 400m runner, and an elite 800m runner couldn't be more different, so how is it possible for somebody to actually do this double? It's not like a 100/200, an 800/1500, 1500/5000 etc which are within the same discipline. How would an elite athlete go about this double? Would it be a case of a compromise by maybe running 30-40 miles a week while still doing the speed endurance reps on the track?

Thoughts?

TFBubendorfer

Juantorena was a 400 meter runner who was tricked by his coach to run the 800 as well.

If you find another outstanding 400 meter runner and get him do move up a distance, it may well be achievable, but we're talking about a truly outstanding talent here.

1500/5000 is pretty outstanding as well IMHO, and yet there have been a couple of guys in recent years who were world class in both.

ss43

I think the culture of the sport has a lot to do with it. 400m is labeled a sprint and 800m is labeled a middle distance event. Not many sprint coaches go above 400m and not many distance coaches go below 800m.

I don't think it should be any harder than the other doubles mentioned but there isn't a history of it (just a one-off) so there isn't the same belief that it can be done.

If, for example, Rudisha started doing 400s during his real season (not in March) others might follow and from then it could progress to something significant.

I don't think 70-80 miles is that necessary for 800m. Reports would suggest Rudisha does a lot less anyway. I think there's an over-emphasis on endurance for 800m which takes athletes more towards 1500m if there's to be a double and also may put off 400m runners who could move up.

myflipflops

04072511 wrote: »

How would an elite athlete go about this double?

I don't think a sane one would.

You just have to be a genetic athletic 'freak' of the highest order. As TFBubendorfer said, Juantorena was a 400 runner who stepped it. It turned out he had the aerobic capacity for it.

The only person you would even dream of doing it these days is Rudisha (you never seem to see top class 400 runners stepping up anymore) and his PB is 45.50 over the quarter mile. It would take an unfathomable improvement to get down to gold medal times in the 400 while staying there at 800.

400/400 hurdles is one nobody tries so there's an argument that is as tough despite people excelling at both. The 10k/marathon double is also out of reach these days.

wgtomblin

Jarmila Kratochvilova set world records at 400m and 800m back in the 80's. Now, that bloke could really run .
As myflipflops says, it would take "a genetic athletic 'freak' of the highest order".

Brianderunner

The 100m/marathon double wouldnt be the easiest i'd say :D:p

donothoponpop

Juantorena was a beautiful runner to watch, such a great stride.

Modern athletes tend to specialize more (its probably more cutting edge at the pointy end than 30 years ago), but I'd say Kevin Borlee would run a decent 400/800m double. He ran the third fastest 600m of all time, last year.

Pherekydes

ss43 wrote: »

I don't think it should be any harder than the other doubles mentioned but there isn't a history of it (just a one-off) so there isn't the same belief that it can be done.

Juantorena isn't a one-off. Arthur Wint won gold in the 400m and silver in the 800m in 1948, Ted Meredith set world records in both events, winning the 800m and the 4x4 in 1912, and later breaking the 400m WR, Tom Courtney won the 800m in Melbourne and also took a 4x4 gold, and perhaps the best of all, Rudolf Harbig, ran 46.0 and 1:46.6 in 1939, before dying on the eastern front during WWII. He would surely have won the double in a 1940 Olympics.

And don't forget Big Red...

ecoli

I am not quite sure a genetic freak would be required but I think that 400/800runners (especially at the world class level) are rare.

To me many of the athletes who excel in the events are 1 of three kinda runners

200/400
400/800
800/1500

I think reason its rare is because usually runners are sprinter orientated or distance (either first or last of these types of runners) and as such mentally the double isn't seen as an attractive option to the athlete

Look at current elite runners you will see this sort of distinction

200/400 - Kirani James
400/800 - David Rudisha
800/1500 - Kaki/ Kiprop

I think the Rudisha type appear to excel at the 800 and as such tend to specialize in this event but i think these type of runners generally are the archetype for 800m running

Few examples of this type of runner - Niall tuohy, Big Red, Rudisha, Coe (bit of an anomally as he could also run a great 1500) and Juantorena

YFlyer

ecoli wrote: »

Few examples of this type of runner - Niall tuohy, Big Red, Rudisha, Coe (bit of an anomally as he could also run a great 1500) and Juantorena

Danny O'Brien and I think PJ O Rourke 400 metre time is fast.

dna_leri

The whole "genetic freak" description is a bit of a cop-out - you could equally say that every world-class athlete was one.

Looking at Juantorena's training (see attached) in the lead-up to 1976, it does not look all that different to a typical current 400m training plan, with a long-to-short approach. Other than a 13K Fartlek during general preparation, no reps were over 1K. The 800 is now little more than an extended sprint and does not necessarily need the 75 mpw.

It can be hard to decipher Juantorena's language sometimes:

the volume in kilometers reached, during the macrocycle of preparation for Montreal (including the competitive special mesocycle of May-June and July) was rounded off in the figure 1,050 Km.

but I think its fair to say he would not have featured in the 1000 mile challenge.

Because of event timing in major events and the number of rounds, this double is also harder than most others. In London the mens' 400m are on the 4,5 & 7 Aug with the 800m on the 6,7 & 9 Aug. It was not much better in 1976 where Juantorena did the 800m on 3 consecutive days and then straight into 2 rounds of the 400m the next day, one days rest, then semi-finals and finals of the 400. He also did two rounds of the 4x400 the next two days. :eek: This above all is why the 400/800 double is almost impossible.

oldrunner

is this really about the olympics or is your subconscious telling you that you won't get a good 800m time (nothing like some amateur psychology)?:)

menoscemo

Brianderunner wrote: »

The 100m/marathon double wouldnt be the easiest i'd say :D:p

The Shot Put and the marathon would be even harder though. :pac:

walshb

Jeez, what about Daley and the decathletes?;)

walshb

dna_leri wrote: »

Because of event timing in major events and the number of rounds, this double is also harder than most others. In London the mens' 400m are on the 4,5 & 7 Aug with the 800m on the 6,7 & 9 Aug. It was not much better in 1976 where Juantorena did the 800m on 3 consecutive days and then straight into 2 rounds of the 400m the next day, one days rest, then semi-finals and finals of the 400. He also did two rounds of the 4x400 the next two days. :eek: This above all is why the 400/800 double is almost impossible.

Unreal when one analyses the schedule and times and distances. It's almost insulting to the individuals in the 400 and 800 that this guy won both with this sort of timetable.

Pherekydes

walshb wrote: »

Unreal when one analyses the schedule and times and distances. It's almost insulting to the individuals in the 400 and 800 that this guy won both with this sort of timetable.

It wasn't that easy. He set a WR in the 8, and a low altitude WR in the 4.

It's a pity Mike Boit was missing from the 8.

Youtube the races. He had the most magnificent stride of any athlete, ever.

gerard65

04072511 wrote: »

Alberto Juantorena won the 400/800 double at the 1976 Olympic Games

'Juantorena spreads his legs and shows his class' - David Coleman commentating as Juantorena kicks off the last bend:D

Getonwithit

The 4/8 man is becoming more common IMO. Rudisha is correctly referenced while closer to home mark English senior 8 champ showed a fair turn of pace winning the junior 400 last year against a decent sprint field. I'd go as far as to argue it's easier for a 4 man to go up to 8 than a 3k man to come down as well

walshb

Pherekydes wrote: »

It wasn't that easy. He set a WR in the 8, and a low altitude WR in the 4.

It's a pity Mike Boit was missing from the 8.

Youtube the races. He had the most magnificent stride of any athlete, ever.

Watched him many times. After Lewis, (albeit a sprinter) he was to me the most graceful looking runner. Kipketer is third on my list.

Oh, no way was it easy. I guess my point was that can you imagine a top athlete dedicating his whole life to one event, the 800, and then some guy comes along and decides that he will also do the 400, and still he beats you at the 800?:(

Getonwithit

walshb wrote: »

Watched him many times. After Lewis, (albeit a sprinter) he was to me the most graceful looking runner. Kipketer is third on my list.

Oh, no way was it easy. I guess my point was that can you imagine a top athlete dedicating his whole life to one event, the 800, and then some guy comes along and decides that he will also do the 400, and still he beats you at the 800?:(

Generally only one gold medal anyway so if that was the basis most lads would never have a go!