GAA CHAMPIONSHIP FORMAT CHANGE

devlin159

Does the inter-county championship and the whole structure of inter county football need changed personally i think its outdated and a bit of a shambles kerry can win 4 matches and be in the all Ireland final

plus why do players say its their dream to play in croke park when loads of matches are played there why is quarter-finals played at croke park it makes no sense spread the games around the country stop playing games at croke park just for money when the ulster championship final was played at croke park it was a bad sign

personally i would scrap the league and provincial championships make it a 34 team tournament 6 groups of 4 and 2 groups of 5 group winners plus 4 next best get through would mean a 12 team playoff which is seeded to to the final therefore the team with the best record lets say Kerry will get a bye to the quarters and will play there quarter final and semi final at home also teams would play each other twice in the group stage which means 6 or games the gaa could start this earlier in the season because the league is scrapped and could also have matches during the week how about a monday night game live on rte 2

its about time the gaa changed things and put thier organasation into the 21st century and scrap this out of date system they have now

Syferus

Not. A. Fooking. Gain.

ciarriaithuaidh

This is from a post a friend of mine made on another forum...have to agree that this (or a similar) system is going to have to be implemented at some stage.

"Thought this proposal from 11 years ago was a very sound one at the time and still do. Was eventually rejected and a fudge in the form of the backdoor system (devised by Frank Murphy of Cork?) implemented instead.

Are the provincial champs still regarded by most punters here as untouchable?

Here's an article summarising the proposal of the time.

DUBLIN — The GAA has unveiled a controversial set of proposals that, if passed, would radically transform Gaelic football in Ireland. Under the new scheme, the National League would be scrapped as an independent competition and incorporated into a championship designed to guarantee every county at least 10 games.

The proposed competition, which is expect to meet with stern resistance, would encompass two regions, north and south. The north would comprise the top seven counties in Ulster and the top four in Connacht. The south, meanwhile, would be made of up of the top seven in Leinster and the top four in Munster.

All remaining counties, including New York, would be accommodated in a third group also providing a minimum of 10 games per county on the way to an All Ireland B championship. The winning team would then be promoted to the premier competition.

However, the competition doesn’t do away with the time-honored provincial semi-finals and finals. The four counties from Leinster and Munster who finish highest in their groups would qualify for their respective provincial semifinals.

The top three teams from both Munster and Connacht would qualify for the knockout stages in their provinces with the leading team going straight to the final and the next two contesting a semifinal.

Devised by the GAA’s Football Development Committee, the reasoning behind the plan is to ensure that every county has a minimum of 10 games in a highly competitive structure. The games would be played in the March-June period while the provincial semifinals and finals, as well as the All Ireland semifinals and finals, would continue to be staged in the traditional July-September period.

Under the present system, teams have a series of National League games in the poor conditions of midwinter, and then after six intensive months of training, they could find themselves knocked out in the first round of the championship.

The proposals of the Football Development Committee, whose members include Colm O’Rourke, Eugene McGee, Martin Carney, Pat O’Neill, Noel Walsh and Art McRory, will have to be passed at the GAA’s annual congress next April. The early indications are that they could well be rejected.

Some successful county boards may not want to contemplate a reduction in the gate receipts they currently enjoy with a two-tier League and Championship system. Clubs may also feel they will be short-changed by being left idle during the March to June period.

Traditionalists might also balk at the possibility of Mayo beating Derry in a last group game to create the situation of a Connacht team eliminating an Ulster county from the Ulster championship. By the same token, Kerry might remove Dublin from the knockout stages of the Leinster championship.

There also is likely to be strong resistance from some counties who might see the new format as one which could effectively preclude them from competing in their own provincial championship.

On current standings, the North group would consist of Mayo, Galway, Roscommon, Sligo, Armagh, Down, Derry, Tyrone, Donegal, Fermanagh, Cavan.

The South group would be Meath, Dublin, Laois, Offaly, Louth, Kildare, Westmeath, Cork, Kerry, Tipperary, Clare.

Meanwhile, the B championship group would consist of Monaghan, Wicklow, Leitrim, Wexford, Carlow, Longford, New York, Antrim, London, Limerick, Waterford."

Read more: http://kerrygaa.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=4103#ixzz1jniwyZRP

tvercetti

devlin159 wrote: »

kerry can win 4 matches and be in the all Ireland final

How is that a bad thing, surely its worse when a team can lose and make it to the final, thats the part that contradicts the idea of a championship, your whole idea is just an extension of the format of the national football league whereby teams compete in a league system with the top teams playing off albeit you intend to have more groups with less teams. The whole idea would surely have an adverse effect on viewing and club football

The_Kew_Tour

Bring back the old system, straight knock out.

It worked for 110 years why change

ormond lad

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Bring back the old system, straight knock out.

It worked for 110 years why change

That definately wont happen, the players want the minimum of 2 games a summer that the old system didnt allow for.

I saw this championship proposal on another forum and it isnt bad, few issues but isnt that bad

As there's not much happening on the field this time of year, and as just about every football county seems to be dissatisfied with both the national league and championship format, I'm going to propose a new format.

I hope this will at least provoke debate.

Basically, this system is based on making the objective of the league games (i) Reaching the final phases of an open draw championship, rather than (ii) Redundant National league finals.
However Provisional Finals are retained by using a system which is based on to the Conference system used in American Grid-iron Football.

Incentives are supposed to be included at every stage so that teams aren't going through the motions in any match. It's not easy to explain these things on paper, but here goes;

Each Year the 32 Football Counties are divided into 4 "National Conferences" based on a seeding system determined by performance in the previous year.
For Example Dublin, Kerry, Cork and Tyrone might be seeded 1 next year, with each heading up one of 4 conferences.
Similarly Mayo, Donegal, Kildare & Meath might be seeded 2, and would also be placed in different conferences, each made up of 8 teams drawn from 8 pots of 4 teams ranked at levels 1-8.

For example, level 8 teams might include London. Carlow, Waterford and Clare, who would get the chance of seeing the top teams at their grounds using this system.

Each county would play 7 games in this "League" phase of the competition, which is very similar to how the 4 divisional leagues are played now, however without the finals given there is a new objective for these games which is explained as follows;

Later in the year, the 8 Provincial Finalists would be determined, not by championship as at present, but by the top 2 league records from each province, regardless of conference played in. Counties records would be compared across conferences first by points total, followed points difference, then points scored. (In the unlikely event of equal records mid-week play-offs could be used).

The 4 provisional finals would of course produce 4 winners, with these teams getting direct to the AI Quarter final as at present, having 8 competitive games under their belt.

The 4 provincial champions having qualified, conference placings would again be used to determine the 16 other teams with the best "League Records". If losing provincial finalists don't fall in to this category (possible but unlikely) they would exit at that stage.
2 series of an open draw "knock-out" championship, with home field advantage determined by league record, could quickly reduce 16 teams to 4 by the end of July, as is the case now.

8 teams now remaining, All Ireland Quarter finals, would take place and I'd suggest offering home field advantage to the Provincial winners to boost the significance of those titles and make up for the 2/4 week lay-off which they also experience with the current system, but without compensation.
Semi-finals & Final would be played in Croke Park as at present.

The 12 other teams who did not qualify for the All Ireland Series would play in a B Championship, with the prize playing in Croke Park on AI Final day before the AI Final, and a higher seeding the following year for teams which progress.

Although not perfect, the benefits of this system include;
1. Meaningful League Series, giving qualification for, and home field advantage within, the AI series.
2. Coveted Provincial Titles
3. Dublin & Kerry Regularly appearing in places like Aughrim and Carrick on Shannon
4. End of League Finals played in front of 10,000 people.
5. End of Back Door System
6. More meaningful games, and bigger attendances, for all counties.
7. Realistic target for Division 4 Teams.
8. Not playing the same teams year after year
9. And Best of all, all teams in all counties would be playing at the same times of year, leaving proper windows for Club.

devlin159

where im from most people i would say dont even know the league exist they only watch if a team gets to semi-finals finals onward then they claim they great fans.

ciarriaithuaidh

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Bring back the old system, straight knock out.

It worked for 110 years why change

For Pete's sake man, you can't seriously want some of the most talented footballers in the country to kill themselves training for 70 minutes of action in May or June and then thats it?

I'm not a huge fan of AFL, but something like their system with every team having a good number of games, home and away in one season-long competition, followed by exciting, knockout format playoffs, is exactly what Gaelic football needs. Scrap the league and for at least 2 years try the PDC-proposed system which I posted above, 3 tiers of 11 teams each, with promotion and relegation.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4

devlin159 wrote: »

Does the inter-county championship and the whole structure of inter county football need changed personally i think its outdated and a bit of a shambles kerry can win 4 matches and be in the all Ireland final

so can any other team in munster and connaught

keane2097

Amir Old Somewhere wrote: »

so can any other team in munster and connaught

Jumps out to a massive five games if you're one of the multiple teams that get a bye at the start of the Leinster championship.

cruiserweight

keane2097 wrote: »

Jumps out to a massive five games if you're one of the multiple teams that get a bye at the start of the Leinster championship.

Same in the Ulster championship

keane2097

cruiserweight wrote: »

Same in the Ulster championship

lol, so it is.

Still, Kerry clearly screwing the system all these years. I wonder how many fewer titles they'd have if they'd had to get through an extra game against Carlow every year.

hisholinessnb

Jesus christ not this again :rolleyes:

I've yet to see a proposal better than the current system.

When you actually sit down and think of the impact financially to the GAA to have meaningless group games with next to no attendance (which would happen in ANY group style format at the 3rd / 4th round of games) or the lack of crowds in an open draw (how many fans can afford to travel countrywide from the early stages) its clear why this cannot work.

People go on about the GAA being greedy and it all being about the money etc etc, but of course they think like this!! They would be crazy not to. Without the cash the big Croke park games draw the clubs around the country would be in a much worse state.

I can understand people want Dublin to play away from home, and heaven knows I enjoy the odd away championship game we get, but from a financial point of view the GAA would be crazy to send Dublin, Kildare or any of the other teams who bring big crowds to the likes of Aughrim or Drogheda.

Until I see an actual realistic option that has been seriously thought through, I think the current system is the best available.


To date I have not seen it, every month or so the same old, extremely flawed ideas are thrown forward as "the way forward".

People need to think these proposals through realistically, which they clearly are not doing.

keane2097

ciarraithuaidh and ormond lad's selections would both remove the majority of meaningless group games to be fair.

ormond lad

hisholinessnb wrote: »

Jesus christ not this again :rolleyes:

I've yet to see a proposal better than the current system.

When you actually sit down and think of the impact financially to the GAA to have meaningless group games with next to no attendance (which would happen in ANY group style format at the 3rd / 4th round of games) or the lack of crowds in an open draw (how many fans can afford to travel countrywide from the early stages) its clear why this cannot work.

People go on about the GAA being greedy and it all being about the money etc etc, but of course they think like this!! They would be crazy not to. Without the cash the big Croke park games draw the clubs around the country would be in a much worse state.

I can understand people want Dublin to play away from home, and heaven knows I enjoy the odd away championship game we get, but from a financial point of view the GAA would be crazy to send Dublin, Kildare or any of the other teams who bring big crowds to the likes of Aughrim or Drogheda.

Until I see an actual realistic option that has been seriously thought through, I think the current system is the best available.


To date I have not seen it, every month or so the same old, extremely flawed ideas are thrown forward as "the way forward".

People need to think these proposals through realistically, which they clearly are not doing.

How is the proposal i posted not "thought through realistically". Most teams in the football championship get 2 or 3 championship games max.
This proposal brings real meaning to the league where at the moment some countys disregard it to an extent
You say that having a group stage will affect attendances in the later rounds, use season tickets and promote the games better to ensure games are not played in front of small crowds

keane2097

The vast majority of games are played in front of less than stellar crowds anyway, so that's not really an argument against anything.

ArmaniJeanss

A lot of these plans fall down at 'doing well earns you home advantage in the later stages'.

Like the OPs suggestion of the best group performer getting home advantage in the quarter and semi's just can't happen, or various Champions League type 'group winners play group runners up' suggestions.

They are generally attempts imo to copy the successful systems in American Football or SuperLeague Rugby, where you have a continuous set of targets a) qualify for playoffs then b) get a bye week then c) get homefield advantage up until semi finals stages.

But these are sporting systems which encourage every individual club or county or franchise or whatever to grow as big as possible in their local catchment area, even under threat of being thrown out if they are not seen to be continually expanding.

Whereas the organisational system we have (and its got many huge positive benefits) sees a central agency control all the purse strings and do whats considered best for the organisation as a whole.
The upshot being that Louth or Longford can win all the group games going but they won't get a sniff of a home quarter final against Dublin or Cork or Armagh. They could build a nice 25000 all-seater stadium but still the financial case for having the game in Croke Pk will win out. And the nature of the way all the incoming money for Championship games flows through Croke Pk and gets doled out means that they will never be given the means to build the 25,000 stadium in the first place as its considered unneccessary as they can play all their big games in Croke Pk and their medium games in Navan or Portlaoise.

keane2097

Doesn't your argument assume a packed out Croke Park for many more games than what happens in reality AJ?

Seems the majority of the time they need to put on double headers which include teams from close to Dublin to break 30k.

ArmaniJeanss

keane2097 wrote: »

Doesn't your argument assume a packed out Croke Park for many more games than what happens in reality AJ?

Seems the majority of the time they need to put on double headers which include teams from close to Dublin to break 30k.

I agree. Quite often bizarre double headers get put on in Croke Pk, and even with a combined attendance of ~40,000 the place looks empty (as a majority of fans only attend the game which concerns them).

But the GAA have made such an investment in Croke Pk it would require a massive sea change in attitude to do anything than concentrate all the games there.

Personally I'd love if there was a quarter final line up of say Wexford v Galway, Donegal v Dublin, Louth v Cork and Kerry v Sligo, and the games were played in Gorey, Ballyshannon, Drogheda and Tralee in compact modern 25,000 seater stadia. Its what other sports do.
But because 70,000 want to see the Dubs game and 35,000+ want to see the other games they end up being put on in Croke Pk, with a couple of double headers.
Which reduces the incentive for the Louth or Donegal boards to build the 25,000 stadia in the first place, combined with the fact that they don't get the gate receipt money so long term it nots financially viable anyway.

What I think it amounts to is that the mere presence of the undeniably wonderful Croke Pk, and a governing body with the freedom to decide what games take place where is very detrimental to each county having its own ground.

As a bad analogy no-one would tell Fulham they can't play at home to MUFC in Craven Cottage because 50,000 want to see it and their grounds only holds half that. Whereas the GAA has the power to do just that, and because its for the greater good everyone in Louth or Wicklow or Kildare accepts it.

(Very jumbly, and think I lost my point somewhere :pac:)

keane2097

Basically the NFL model would work just fine (and be facking awesome!) only for the fact that knobs in the GAA want all the games in Croke Park come hell or high water.

Oh man, I would seriously love it if they adopted the NFL model - would make for such great spectacles.

Pete_Cavan

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I agree. Quite often bizarre double headers get put on in Croke Pk, and even with a combined attendance of ~40,000 the place looks empty (as a majority of fans only attend the game which concerns them).

But the GAA have made such an investment in Croke Pk it would require a massive sea change in attitude to do anything than concentrate all the games there.

Personally I'd love if there was a quarter final line up of say Wexford v Galway, Donegal v Dublin, Louth v Cork and Kerry v Sligo, and the games were played in Gorey, Ballyshannon, Drogheda and Tralee in compact modern 25,000 seater stadia. Its what other sports do.
But because 70,000 want to see the Dubs game and 35,000+ want to see the other games they end up being put on in Croke Pk, with a couple of double headers.
Which reduces the incentive for the Louth or Donegal boards to build the 25,000 stadia in the first place, combined with the fact that they don't get the gate receipt money so long term it nots financially viable anyway.

What I think it amounts to is that the mere presence of the undeniably wonderful Croke Pk, and a governing body with the freedom to decide what games take place where is very detrimental to each county having its own ground.

As a bad analogy no-one would tell Fulham they can't play at home to MUFC in Craven Cottage because 50,000 want to see it and their grounds only holds half that. Whereas the GAA has the power to do just that, and because its for the greater good everyone in Louth or Wicklow or Kildare accepts it.

(Very jumbly, and think I lost my point somewhere :pac:)

No county would be able to build 25,000 all-seater stadium on the strength of one game a year, even if it is an All Ireland quarter final.

ciarriaithuaidh

Some good points being made here.
Armani, as has been said, i think a rethink is needed (and underway in many cases) on stadium size within the GAA. Too many huge stadiums that are filled once a year or less. Fitzgerald stadium in my own County is one example...a fine venue, but definitely loss making barring injections of funding from the Munster council etc I would think. You have a point though on the 1/4 finals for example. Stupid bringing Kerry v Cork to croker in recent years for example leading to 35-40k attendances, when it would be a far better weekend and a packed house in Killarney. Thats just one example.

In my opinion there needs to be some form of system adopted on a 2 year trial basis at least, within this decade. Talented young sports men in Ireland have too many options now with Rugby growing, Soccer as alluring as ever etc...The fact that at the highest level of competition we have for Senior Gaelic footballers, the majority of players are guaranteed only 2 games per year simply HAS to change. I say this as a Kerry man who would acknowledge that the current system suits us well.
Keane suggested an NFL model...this is something that would be great to see...the wheels if change are slow moving within the GAA hierarchy though and we mightn't see it for decades yet even.

LETS BE AVN IT

What about a Champions League staged format that ended in 2003 in Soccer . The tournament will have 2 group stages .
First Group Stage : 34 Teams , 8 Teams from Pot 1 , 2 , 3 and ten Teams from pot 4 ! These teams to be seeded in accordance to new seeding rules . There will be 6 groups of 4 teams and 2 groups of 5 . Top two advance from each group ! So each county guaranteed to play 3 games and a least 1 at home.

Second Group Stage : 16 Teams , 8 Teams from Pot 1 and 2 . Seeded from Group Winners and Runners Up . Top 2 advance to Quarter final from each group , once again 3 games for each county at least 1 at home.

Knock Out Stage : 4 Group Winners Seeded , Traditional Championship Format for rest of Tournament with games played at Neutral Venue's.
Start Mid May end September.

League to be demolished : Replaced by placing the 4 Provincial Championships taking place from Feb till April !

What ya think?

Syferus

keane2097 wrote: »

Basically the NFL model would work just fine (and be facking awesome!) only for the fact that knobs in the GAA want all the games in Croke Park come hell or high water.

Oh man, I would seriously love it if they adopted the NFL model - would make for such great spectacles.

Problem is there's no stadium in the NFL designated as the top-level field. America is also bloody huge, so neutral games (which i) aren't even feasible, even though in most cases they would be more desirable if the country was the size of Ireland.

You can't really apply the cookie cutter of another sport to the GAA when we're talking about an organisation that is amateur at the top playing level, funds many loss-making enterprises. You don't bring Dublin to play in Navan for a Leinster final and dice away a large pot; margins are way too fine. If an NFL team is insolvent they move or collapse - counties don't have those luxuries, even if Kilkenny and Cavan are making stabs at it in football and hurling.

Croke Park's location is a by-product of the size of our country nd the overwhelming percentage of people in the Dublin commuter belt. Unless we reclaim half the Atlantic Ocean and multiple like rabbits it's simply an end that really shouldn't be complained about. C'est va vie. Or whatever.

And the atmospheres at the quarter-final bills I've attended have been fantastic, particularly this year where HQ saw sense and shut down the top tier and Hill 16 for the games, meaning the crowd was more compact and intense. It's easy to prophetise about these occasions when your county regularly makes the later stages of the championship but trying to remove a key romance of the championship for counties likely to never win an All-Ireland senior title - making it to Croke Park in August - is a quick way to lower excitement and interest in the sport in those counties.