Any Video/Film sutdents or eager amateurs looking for a project???

kheed

Hi,

My band are looking in to making a video of one or two songs, purely for promotional purposes. We have access to a Television studio where the songs will be recorded (Audio only) and we are looking for a student/amateur or anyone really with some half decent video equipment (something more than a handycam, but not necessarily super professional either) who would be interested in filming us play, and have the ability to edit and sync up the audio later.

Our budget is literally €0!!

So that is why we think a student who is in need of a project, or someone with some spare time and an interest in music and video might be interested

If anyone has any thoughts or questions please get in touch, or if there is a more suitable thread for this please bump it over

Cheers

Splinters

Id be interested but not with a zero budget, if your budget situation changes let me know.

CJKeane

I know this is a recession and all but if you're thinking of creating a "promotional" video that's going to (ideally) make you money then why can't you just save up some money and hire someone?

With these things it's really a matter of "you get what you pay for."

Sorry to bring you down a bit but I'm sick and tired of people asking us creatives to work for free just because you have no budget.

kheed

hi CJ

Thanks for the reply. I appreciate that if you are a professional video maker this post is probably not for you. You obviously want to make money from your "creativity" and that is fine. Read the post and move on.

I think you'll find that my post explicitly states that we are looking for someone who may be in need of a project or just have an interest in trying out doing a musical video. We are not trying to sponge anything off anyone.

I would also consider myself as a "creative". I have been in bands for over 15 years, I have paid out money to play gigs, to get websites, to get rehearsal time, to travel to gigs, buy instruments, buy strings, buy gear, buy recording time and produce CDs etc to put our content, as well as all the **** that goes with being "creative" and entertaining and being in a band. Music is free these days and making money from it is as likely as having a lottery win.

Over the years my hobby, passion and artistic output has cost me a huge amount of money and time. The amount of money that I have made in return in less than minimal.

I do it because I enjoy it. My post was looking for some who also enjoys their art and doesn't instantly put a price on it.

We want to promote our music, in an attempt to get more gigs, get our
name out there and continue to do what we enjoy. If you are making millions from your videography then you are a lucky man, I hope you find it enjoyable.

Peace out.

If you know anyone looking to record for free and for fun let me know

K

kheed

any advice on how it might change?

krd

CJKeane wrote: »

I know this is a recession and all but if you're thinking of creating a "promotional" video that's going to (ideally) make you money then why can't you just save up some money and hire someone?

If you can show me one small band in Ireland making money from one of these videos, I will personally pay you double their profits out of my own pocket.

With these things it's really a matter of "you get what you pay for."

Hey people have paid a lot of money and only ended up with at the most a few hundred plays on Youtube.

Sorry to bring you down a bit but I'm sick and tired of people asking us creatives to work for free just because you have no budget.

I'm sick and tired of "creatives" taking peoples money and then not producing anything compelling enough that anyone else apart from family and friends of the marks wants to see.

krd

kheed wrote: »

If anyone has any thoughts or questions please get in touch, or if there is a more suitable thread for this please bump it over

Cheers

Just make you own video and post it on youtube. You'll get as much views as if you hire a tosser, spend thousands, and they hire out a catering truck and bring along all their tosser friends to work on the video. Or worse, they hire some tosser Irish actors, (who will also happen to be friends of theirs) to make an awful tosser heavy Irish music video. Typical smug tossers smiling at each other - with some a super lame tosser concept thrown in.

You see........What ruined so many people as people, is child care books that were popular in recent decades. They suggested, that when potty training a child you should applaud them ... for taking a dump. And many kids, raised under this system, have been trying to recreate the glory of their early years, in much the same fashion, ever since.

Splinters

I can see both sides of it and Im assuming the OP meant no harm by the post.

Just from the point of view of somebody whos spend a lot of time both in bands and making videos/animation....when I played in bands, years before getting into any kind of film making, we often talked about making a video and discussed posting similar types of posts as this looking for somebody who wanted a piece for their showreel etc. It was only after getting into film making I seen the flip side of it...if I want to make a piece for my showreel Ill go out and make one. Likewise if I want to create an animation or CG sequence Ill just make one. Most filmmakers I know are also in a similar position that they've invented large amounts of their time, money and resources in learning their craft and aquiring the equipment needed to do so whenever they want to.

The point of "creative types" just looking to charge for their work really isnt valid here. Most "creative types" I know create their art (be it music/video/photography or whatever) for themselves first and foremost, for their own enjoyment. Thats not whats being requested here, thats not to say it wont be an enjoyable task to make, but its somebody on a public forum looking for somebody they dont know to put a whole lot of time and effort into making something to promote their band. Being realistic this video stands to benefit the band considerably more then the film maker.

Personally speaking, and I know I speak for a lot of others too. Its not about charging huge industry rates or about making a profit from other artists, its just about putting a value on the huge amount of my time that would be needed to complete a project like this properly that could otherwise be spent with my family, friends or another project that would value my time.

CJKeane

Just re-read my post there and I apologize if it sounded like I was attacking you kheed. I had a busy/****ty week and posted when angry. Just like Splinters I have been on both sides of this situation and I know it's hard. I wish you the best of luck with it!

Miguel_Sanchez

krd wrote: »

If you can show me one small band in Ireland making money from one of these videos, I will personally pay you double their profits out of my own pocket.

The point of a music video is to raise awareness of the band. Get more people to their gigs etc. It is very hard to quantify how because you can't tell but if a video gets a lot of views then more than likely it will pay off in some way.

Obviously unless a band has a record company behind them they won't have a huge budget (and some companies won't have the budget to back a band's video until they start making money) but I do think it's important to raise some kind of budget even for something like this.

For instance, I think it's unfair to not pay expenses - travel, parking, food etc for the day. Also a small bit of money which could be spent on set dressing or smoke machines etc. could help lift the final piece above something banal.

Hey people have paid a lot of money and only ended up with at the most a few hundred plays on Youtube.

You can't just stick a video up on Youtube though and expect it to magically get viewers no matter how much or little you've spent on it. A band have to actively promote it and get out there with it.

I've made two music videos for no money. One of them has over a million hits on Youtube, one has only a few thousand.

The difference? One band were actively out there gigging with the backing of a record company and a PR department. The other were out there gigging but with nobody promoting them at all - not even a manager.

And having said 'no money' both videos actually cost some amount as we had to feed crew and pay small amounts for different things we needed. So a zero budget is completely unworkable. Even 100 euro should be scraped together to make sure the people working on the video aren't out of pocket at the end of the project.

Splinters

Jeff_Lebowski wrote: »

Obviously unless a band has a record company behind them they won't have a huge budget

Yet still plenty of bands spend thousands on recording, even at a local level. Ive heard terribly recorded/mixed "demos" that cost 4 figure sums, yet when it comes to a video its often deemed acceptable to look for a freebie.

Just to reiterate I dont believe theres any intented harm in this. I dont believe the guys who ask for freebies really have any appreciation or understanding of how long it takes and whats put into making a good video.

Likewise most bands would be more familiar with the audio recording process which is why theres a whole lot less bands looking for people to record their album for free.

krd

Jeff_Lebowski wrote: »

The point of a music video is to raise awareness of the band. Get more people to their gigs etc. It is very hard to quantify how because you can't tell but if a video gets a lot of views then more than likely it will pay off in some way.

It's not hard to quantify. It's easier now to quantify than ever before. You simply look at the youtube plays. The numbers do not lie. It's so hard to game Youtube (though I've seen people do it) it's not worth anyone's while.

I have seen bands pay thousands for videos, and only get plays in the low hundreds. They could have done better to promote their band by handing out 20 euro notes to strangers on the street.

I've seen lots of videos by small Irish bands, where the production standard was very high. But the ideas were so clichéd, and just overall plain bad. And they've only managed to get plays in the 10s. Please, no more smug arses running along Dolly mount strand. Please, no more scaldy kids kicking a ball around.

And these days it's so much easier to see through the fakery and the bull. If Hotpress or even the NME are writing up a band and making out there's a huge buzz around them. If you look them up on Youtube and they've only got 90 hits on their track after 6 months, then you know the only place there's a buzz is among their well connected mates.

Obviously unless a band has a record company behind them they won't have a huge budget (and some companies won't have the budget to back a band's video until they start making money) but I do think it's important to raise some kind of budget even for something like this.

Record companies do not have anything like the money they used to. I could name one major Irish indie band, who've been signed to a major label, and the label made them pay up front for the production of their album, and their music videos. They were just lucky enough to have rich parents.

There are a lot of bands knocking around where all the members have good high paying jobs. They often have as much, or even more money to spend than the average small band signed to a major record label........These people are making music videos.

If these people have money to spend, I have no problem in the world with people making a living out of them, as there are a few people.

For instance, I think it's unfair to not pay expenses - travel, parking, food etc for the day. Also a small bit of money which could be spent on set dressing or smoke machines etc. could help lift the final piece above something banal.

A band standing around in smoke machine smoke, is more than a little banal. And to be honest the people in bands tend to be the most awful wannabees. If they're going to pay money for a video, they'll want their mugs plastered all over it. The classic band standing around with their instruments is possibly one of the worst video concepts - not only has it been done to death. It's been done to death, buried, then dug up and flogged again and again and again.

You can't just stick a video up on Youtube though and expect it to magically get viewers no matter how much or little you've spent on it. A band have to actively promote it and get out there with it.

Friends once posted a video of me with ladies tights on my head and with a hair dryer in my hand pretending it was a gun. It got thousands of hits. No one promoted it. For some reason people thought it was compelling enough viewing.

Music videos should be compelling enough that you can watch them with the sound turned off and they're still compelling.

I've made two music videos for no money. One of them has over a million hits on Youtube, one has only a few thousand.

The difference? One band were actively out there gigging with the backing of a record company and a PR department. The other were out there gigging but with nobody promoting them at all - not even a manager.

A lot of that is cargo cult thinking. I've seen bands, who've been signed to record companies, had good PR, had prime press. And they've still only gotten in some cases just over a thousand plays after year. Even after having links to their videos posted in national English news papers. People completely overestimate what PR and record companies can do. Factory Records used to deliberately release their records in the 80s with virtual publicity blackouts -their marketing technique was to avoid publicity. The same technique would not work now.

A record company cannot get a million hits on Youtube. They can, and do, spend millions and still not get a million hits.

If you get a million hits on youtube for your video. You will have to face the facts. And accept. That you managed to do something extraordinary. Or at the very least, you manage not to f*** it up - but really it's more likely you actually made a good video.

A million hits on Youtube is an extraordinary achievement. If you can achieve a million hits, for something you did for free, you should be able to parlay that achievement into more lucrative work. A minuscule number of bands ever break the one million mark. And many who, do have spent colossal amounts of money on the production.

If you managed to get a million hits on Youtube, the lionshare of the credit should go to you and the band.


The band who only got a few thousand hits. If they'd had a record company behind them they may have got more. But maybe not a huge amount more. I've seen hyped artists - who have record companies - who are considered moderately successful, and they still only get hits up around 50,000. That isn't bad either. It's very very difficult to hit a million.

People think if you have the money to spend. Get all the stuff - all the trucks full of production gear. The catering wagon. etc. It's going to make the magic happen. It doesn't work that way at all. That's cargo cult thinking.

And having said 'no money' both videos actually cost some amount as we had to feed crew and pay small amounts for different things we needed. So a zero budget is completely unworkable. Even 100 euro should be scraped together to make sure the people working on the video aren't out of pocket at the end of the project.

People shouldn't be expected to work for free - at the least you should provide people food and stuff. At the same time, something I've seen - I've seen people ripped off. Not just with video production - it happens with photos too. They pay someone, the guy turns up with all the fancy gear, and the result is not worthy of anyone who would consider themselves professional.

If you have no money, you really shouldn't expect anything. They're are ways to get videos made for free. All the video production courses in England are always looking for bands to give music that their students can make videos for. You do get what you pay for.

The work for free thing, doesn't just apply to small broke bands. A credit on a major production can be parlayed into lucrative work. Someone I know, who owns a video and sound production company - she edited a major US television show. The production company only paid for her hotel, flights, and expenses. She was the senior editor. And it was really tough job. The reason she did it for no money was so she could get more work for her production company.

The film production business is really awful for getting people to work for free - even when the production company can well afford to pay people.

If someone is going to do serious work for free - there really should be something in it for them. Ultimately, I think it's better to pay people - as they are obliged to come up with the goods.

If you've done a video for free, and it's got over a million hits on Youtube, then it was well worth doing for free. You should be able to parlay that into much more lucrative work.

CJKeane

krd wrote: »

If you can show me one small band in Ireland making money from one of these videos, I will personally pay you double their profits out of my own pocket.

Hermitage Green - Live On

My housemate did the sound for this video and the production costs were more than affordable.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEzyctVRCxw

krd

Splinters wrote: »

Yet still plenty of bands spend thousands on recording, even at a local level. Ive heard terribly recorded/mixed "demos" that cost 4 figure sums, yet when it comes to a video its often deemed acceptable to look for a freebie.

There is quiet a bit of piss taking that goes on. I think less these days, as the technology has got better, and there are a good few quite skilled people around. For a 4 figure sum, a lot of the guys around in production can make even pretty weak musicians sound passable. There's auto tune and all kinds of ways of fixing flubs in recordings. I have heard recordings where the producer/engineer has made the band sound a lot more competent than they actually are. It's much easier these days to give productions the professional shine that used to be very expensive.

This has led to what is called landfill Indie. When it was expensive, literally only a handful of albums would get made in Ireland every year. Now, hundreds of them get made. The production quality is often very high - but the vast majority of the time you'd be very hard pressed to find songs, anyone would like to listen to. And it's not that these people are making obscure sounding music there may only be a tiny market for - they're trying to be commercial.

Just to reiterate I dont believe theres any intented harm in this. I dont believe the guys who ask for freebies really have any appreciation or understanding of how long it takes and whats put into making a good video.

There are pros out there, who charge for their services, who do not know how to make a good video.

Ireland is a country where people have also made landfill full feature length productions. There was one year, a few years back, where there had been 20 full length features, with budgets of over a million each, produced. And the quality was so bad, distributors wouldn't even distribute the films for free.

Likewise most bands would be more familiar with the audio recording process which is why theres a whole lot less bands looking for people to record their album for free.

There's a problem here. And it applies to music production too.

Traditionally, when record companies had money, they would pay music producers to produce music for the public - as the ultimate client was the public - that's where the money was ultimately going to come from. And it's the same for video makers. And small record companies with small budgets were often able to produce very good stuff.

Now record companies have serious money problems. I think there may be more money spent in vanity recording and video making than spent by the record companies themselves.

When the client actually becomes the bands themselves. Everything can become about pleasing the band, and not producing something to please the public. The end goal is no longer about making a video people want to see.

It's different if the video and music producer is depending on the success of the production with the public, than if it's just with the band. If the video or music producer, is trying to make a name for themselves, or maintain a name, they have to work harder. The harder they work, the better they get.

If the video and music producer depended on sales, or the impact of their work with the public to get paid, the work would be of a much higher standard.

krd

CJKeane wrote: »

Hermitage Green - Live On

My housemate did the sound for this video and the production costs were more than affordable.

Over 16,000 views since November. That's really good going.

There are people who've spent a lot of money and haven't even broken 1/16th of those views.

Miguel_Sanchez

krd wrote: »

It's not hard to quantify. It's easier now to quantify than ever before. You simply look at the youtube plays. The numbers do not lie.

No what I mean is you can measure the Youtube hits but do those hits pan out into record sales and tickets sold? That's the hard bit to quantify.

A band standing around in smoke machine smoke, is more than a little banal. And to be honest the people in bands tend to be the most awful wannabees. If they're going to pay money for a video, they'll want their mugs plastered all over it. The classic band standing around with their instruments is possibly one of the worst video concepts - not only has it been done to death. It's been done to death, buried, then dug up and flogged again and again and again.

I wasn't suggesting smoke machines as a great amazing idea. Rather that some things have to be paid for and having a bit of money will allow that rather than spending zero and having absolutely nothing. Personally I'm not a huge fan of performance videos but there you go - sometimes that's what you're asked to do.

Here's the video I made. Straight performance with feck all budget. Nothing extraordinary and finished without my supervision but it's done well enough (even though it was uploaded in the wrong aspect ratio by the label). I think the fact that it's been viewed so much is more to do with the band than the video to be honest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5ZhBAylbN4

krd

Jeff_Lebowski wrote: »

No what I mean is you can measure the Youtube hits but do those hits pan out into record sales and tickets sold? That's the hard bit to quantify.

Well the thing is, the band have to translate that into ticket sales and record sales (though no one is really selling records any more - even big acts are only getting a fraction of what they once did)

A million hits on Youtube should open doors. It means there is definitely something there that can be built on. Elbow, one of the biggest English bands get close to 4 million hits on their most played track. That's with a lot of pushing and a lot of money - years of pushing. Something that can reach a million without that much of a push is definitely extraordinary.

Things can go wrong though. Things can go horribly wrong *

I wasn't suggesting smoke machines as a great amazing idea.

You know....It's probably an awful idea.

Rather that some things have to be paid for and having a bit of money will allow that rather than spending zero and having absolutely nothing.

I completely agree with you. Crucially though. If people do not have much money, all the money they do have should go into the production. It should end up on the screen. And even a very small band should be able to raise something to have their video made.

Personally I'm not a huge fan of performance videos but there you go - sometimes that's what you're asked to do.

More often then not, they are excruciating. Unless, the band, and editing can make it look visually interesting. A talented editor can probably cut a good video from pretty awful footage. Can even turn it to their advantage. With the right amount of hot sauce, you can't make chicken soup from chicken sh1t, but it will have enough hot sauce that no one can taste the sh1t.

I've watched a few. And at a certain point I often feel like clawing my eyes out. And I have seen a few where they've hired the smoke machine - and they really shouldn't have bothered. And I've seen ones where I knew a lot of money and work has gone into it, but it looks terrible. Where really silly stuff has been done (and I don't mean silly deliberate, I mean silly unintentional). I have seen things, where I honestly I have wanted to weep.

Here's the video I made. Straight performance with feck all budget.

Yeah. But it's a good video. Did you do the editing? I really like the disintegration effects.

Nothing extraordinary and finished without my supervision but it's done well enough

It's good.

(even though it was uploaded in the wrong aspect ratio by the label).

Yep saw that - that really looks like a label that gives a sh1t. Though, it kind of works in the context the video concept being a kind of disintegration of VHS tape. There are actually some really interesting things in the video.

I think the fact that it's been viewed so much is more to do with the band than the video to be honest.

Credit where credit is due. If you got a million plays. Then whatever you did, at the very least you didn't screw up. Even if you really don't know what you did, you did something or at least you didn't do something catastrophically wrong.

One thing it does illustrate, is the performance video can work.

Did you do the editing?

*now let's talk about where it all can go horribly wrong.

Where you can have the budget, where you can be fancy, and you've just pissed the whole thing up against the wall.

Hermitage Green, a group I have never heard of. November 2011, posted an amateur video, made in a church in Limerick - Live On. It's just a bunch of guys. There's no fancy editing. There's nothing fancy to it at all. The church looks visually interesting - though it gives me the willies. 16,044, views as of today.

Now. To illustrate how you can make a really awful video when you have a budget.

Exhibit A

Released Oct 21 - They promised us Jetpacks - Human Error - as of today 5,888 plays on the Fatcat records channel - okay it does have a few thousand plays on another channel, but they're still behind Hermitage Green.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-t_N6uOMZE

I'll explain why this is a very bad music video.

One: It's got tossers in it. The whole video is full of tossers. They look like the smug friends of Prince Harry on the piss. These are the kind of soulless vampires whose day job is likely something like kissing arses in the financial services. They are remorseless consumers. The zombies you see walking pie eyed around shopping centres. Drinking shots with their smug friends in trendy bars. These are not the people you're going to see at a gig in Whelan's

They are revolting. They are ugly - not superficially - it's the ugliness these people have on the inside shines through. The worst kind of ugliness.

Two: There's obviously some kind of conceptual narrative in there. But it's a really piss poor one. Tossers getting drunk and shagging each other - a bit of risqué ecstasy taking. Maybe there's some story in there of one of the smug tossers shagging someone they shouldn't have. So...What.... They're unsympathetic people

One thing that may have really worked in the Quite Voices video is the guys look sympathetic.

Really though it looks like some kind of government health warning video - you're expecting at any moment a van to drive over one of the drunk tossers, and some message to come up about the dangers of being a pissed tosser in public, etc. And you know ... maybe a little death could have vastly improved that video.

What the video is like - if you imagine a video being made for Morrisey/the Smiths in the 80s. And what it has is a bunch of "me generation" yuppies flashing their cash, and looking all "successful" and yuppish.

Where is the pathos to match the music? Smug yuppies are not going to buy their music. These people do not have souls.

The band really do have something - but the whole concept is completely against the grain of their music. I've listened to the track without watching the video and it has a completely different feeling.

Three: The editing. Something about music. It has a clearly defined beat - there are things that happen in the music - things happen, like cymbal crashes, instruments coming in and going out (these are sometimes called events). Visuals in music video are often edited to the beat - it can maximise the impact of the music. In pieces of music there are different rhythms going on. Edits on those rhythms can be really powerful. Cutting against the beat has the opposite effect. If you put an audio file on a midi timeline - you can actually see where all the events are. Button to Button, by the White Stripes, was made by students. It works because everything is cut to the beat - if all the playing around with stop motion had not been in synch with the beat, it would have looked like visual gibberish. It would have been the wrong kind of disconcerting.

In the video for Human Error, everything is slowed down - the edits don't maximise anything - it's like the guy just went out and shot something and then flogged it back together with no real concern for the music.

What they should have done........A maybe this how they jinxed themselves. They should have gone back to the guy who did the video for them for free - the one that got over a million plays, and got the guy to make another.

That guy made a better video. That guy got a million hits.

kheed

Oh my science, I've created a Monster! :eek: Or at least an interesting debate.

I can see it from both sides, and looking at my post from a video makers point of view I'm sure I'd be thinking 'what's in it for me?'

As far as my original post goes, I wasn't after the smoke machines, or standing on cliffs looking in to the distance, or any other type of video concept.

I should probably have just asked does anyone have a half decent video camera I can borrow or know somewhere cheap to hire one? We will be recording a few songs in a studio and thought it could be interesting (possibly only to us) to film it and whack it on youtube, as youtube is becoming another form of social network that we like to get involved with. Any live video we have on there are usually of either poor sound or video quality.

There interesting points being made posters, appreciate it.

Miguel_Sanchez

krd wrote: »

Yeah. But it's a good video. Did you do the editing? I really like the disintegration effects.

I directed and edited it. The effects were done partly in Dublin and then finished in Glasgow (which was a time pressure thing from the label who hadn't even given the band a budget!)

Button to Button, by the White Stripes, was made by students.

I'm pretty sure Michel Gondry made that one!

What they should have done........A maybe this how they jinxed themselves. They should have gone back to the guy who did the video for them for free - the one that got over a million plays, and got the guy to make another.

That guy made a better video. That guy got a million hits.

I agree. Wanna be my agent?

9wetfckx43j5rg

Where are you guys recording?

Eoghanobcd

Hi
I would be interested in getting involved with your project. Im currently looking to broaden my cv. Where would the shoot be taking place and when were you thinking of shooting? Has the audio already been recorded?