Free WiFi to be installed on DART and Dublin rail services ‘by the summer’

TiGeR KiNgS

http://www.thejournal.ie/free-wifi-to-be-installed-on-dart-and-dublin-rail-services-by-the-summer-329427-Jan2012/

dublinman1990

It's was expected to see it on the DART. But, it would be great to get wifi on the LUAS. Does anyone know who is providing the wifi on the trams?

The LUAS wifi should be much better though IMO.

markpb

It's funny how it took Irish Rail years to stop denying that people wanted it and then more years to install it on a handful of trains on the Dublin - Cork line and yet BE and IR/DART can install it in a matter of months when a minister wants it.

goingnowhere

Corrected that for you...

markpb wrote: »

when a minister pays for it.

Cookie_Monster

dublinman1990 wrote: »

It's was expected to see it on the DART.

The LUAS wifi should be much better though IMO.

what possible justification do you have for that statement?

TiGeR KiNgS

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what possible justification do you have for that statement?

D4 head no doubt.

AlekSmart

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what possible justification do you have for that statement?

A Dublinman just KNOWS these things.......y'see...CookieMonsters,on the other hand,know the best wi-fi is in the JAR !!! Yum Yum Yum....:D

n97 mini

Adding wifi to commuter rail services won't attract any more customers, and the majority of customers now have 3G anyway.

I really don't see the point, especially from the state's perspective. I think it's a waste of money that we don't have.

Solair

Seems pointless to me.

Who uses public WiFi other than maybe tourists with bad value data roaming plans?

Anyone with an iPhone, Android, tablets etc generally has mobile data

Commuter rail services also only operate in urban areas and generally stay in good 3G coverage. The same is not true for intercity train and bus services which hit poor data coverage in the Midlands, so it makes sense on the Cork train for example,

the most important thing is actually power sockets at seats. These are only provided on the new Intercity DMU trains and in first class on the Cork Dublin train. Not installing them in standard class on the Cork train was a huge oversight. They also should be retrofitted to the Belfast enterprise.

Cookie_Monster

n97 mini wrote: »

I really don't see the point, especially from the state's perspective. I think it's a waste of money that we don't have.

Agree 100%, buy another bus or employ a few more drivers or run an extra train somewhere, actual improvements that would make a difference instead of this. PT is about providing transport, not internet access.

Solair

To me it screams : technology from the 1990s being pushed by middle aged management types coz 'wifi' is a cool high tech thing they've heard of but don't quite understand.

n97 mini

Solair wrote: »

To me it screams : technology from the 1990s being pushed by middle aged management types coz 'wifi' is a cool high tech thing they've heard of but don't quite understand.

I'd say they've all got company iPads and have suddenly discovered wifi lets them walk around the office looking impressive with the Irish Times website open.

irlrobins

Solair wrote: »

The same is not true for intercity train and bus services which hit poor data coverage in the Midlands, so it makes sense on the Cork train for example,

I would have thought the wifi is linked to a mobile service provided by Vodafone/O2/etc. So even if there is wifi installed, it would suffer the same poor data coverage as anyone on their smartphone.

Unless they're planning on using another method of data comms?

spank_inferno

Its also worth adding, its not really wi-fi, its a mobile operator sim card put into a router.

So it will perform as well as the mobile network in a given area.

markpb

The last few times I got an IR train or BE commuter bus that was fitted with Wifi, quite a few people were using laptops and tablets. I'm not suggesting that they used IR/BE instead of driving because of it but it's certainly a popular facility and one that will enhance the image of public transport (for IC journeys).

We don't know how much this cost - perhaps Fleetconnect (or whatever company Dart/Luas will use) are paying for a lot of it and getting advertising revenue in return. Perhaps it won't cost the state anything but will attract a few new customers/commuters to public transport.

Solair

irlrobins wrote: »

I would have thought the wifi is linked to a mobile service provided by Vodafone/O2/etc. So even if there is wifi installed, it would suffer the same poor data coverage as anyone on their smartphone.

Unless they're planning on using another method of data comms?

big antenna on the roof ensures that you get a signal even in areas with marginal 3G coverage.

Run_to_da_hills

Solair wrote: »

Seems pointless to me.

Who uses public WiFi other than maybe tourists with bad value data roaming plans?

Anyone with an iPhone, Android, tablets etc generally has mobile data

Commuter rail services also only operate in urban areas and generally stay in good 3G coverage. The same is not true for intercity train and bus services which hit poor data coverage in the Midlands, so it makes sense on the Cork train for example,

the most important thing is actually power sockets at seats. These are only provided on the new Intercity DMU trains and in first class on the Cork Dublin train. Not installing them in standard class on the Cork train was a huge oversight. They also should be retrofitted to the Belfast enterprise.

I would gladly use WIFI over GSM particularly if there is a reasonable bandwith and alos if it saves on my data cap limited by my ISP or SP. I have been on buses and trains that had coverage where my GSM coverage failed.

There is two service sockets at the cab end of both German and Jap Dart unit, Most phones and netbooks will hold charge for the duration of any city commuter train. I can get to Belfast and back from my Samsung N140 and that is with a USB dongle attached.

bk

While onboard wifi uses mobile 3G, it will usually use a larger antenna on the roof plus two separate connections to two different mobile providers and should thus offer a much stronger and more reliable connection then you would get with your own phones 3G connection.

However I agree they may have over shot here.

I've always argued that intercity rail should have free wifi and power at every seat. To take maximum advantage of the one advantage intercity rail has over the motorways in Ireland, the ability to work and play on the train.

I said it 5 years ago when the idiots at IR were saying wifi was unnecessary as technology was moving too fast and eventually it would be replaced by other wireless technologies!!!

But yes, I think they have perhaps gone too far here, I'm not certain commuter rail and definitely not Dublin Bus needs free wifi.

AngryLips

markpb wrote: »

It's funny how it took Irish Rail years to stop denying that people wanted it and then more years to install it on a handful of trains on the Dublin - Cork line and yet BE and IR/DART can install it in a matter of months when a minister wants it.

But Dart is part of Irish Rail...

fats83

As a Newbie iPad user! I have only a wifi connection. I would love wifi whilst travelling by train.

Speaking of wifi this this proposal get passed http://www.labour.ie/oisinquinn/news/13259340998327342.html ?

coylemj

Really can't see the point. By the time you enable Wi-Fi on your phone, make a connection, give your e-mail or userid as a login and then actually load a website, you'll have arrived at your destination - or more likely overshoot it because you're distracted reading half time Premier league scores and then you'll curse the stupid wally who decided to install Wi-Fi on the service!

foggy_lad

coylemj wrote: »

Really can't see the point. By the time you enable Wi-Fi on your phone, make a connection, give your e-mail or userid as a login and then actually load a website, you'll have arrived at your destination - or more likely overshoot it because you're distracted reading half time Premier league scores and then you'll curse the stupid wally who decided to install Wi-Fi on the service!

I have used the free WI-FI on the Bus Eireann services to Ashbourne and found it great. easy to set up and I was browsing freely in less than two minutes!

n97 mini

fats83 wrote: »

As a Newbie iPad user! I have only a wifi connection. I would love wifi whilst travelling by train.

I reckon CIE management's motivation is the same.

n97 mini

fats83 wrote: »

Speaking of wifi this this proposal get passed http://www.labour.ie/oisinquinn/news/13259340998327342.html ?

Not aimed at you directly, but there's no such thing as free wifi. Someone has to pay, and he's proposing the tax-payer pay. I say if you want something then pay for it yourself, and don't be saddling it on others.

I suspect the powers that be didn't realise when they introduced a motor tax system that favours diesel that the emissions impact negatively on air quality, and and therefore people's lungs, I suspect similarly they don't know that wifi is in the microwave wavelength and lots of it mightn't be too good for the auld health.

markpb

coylemj wrote: »

Really can't see the point. By the time you enable Wi-Fi on your phone, make a connection, give your e-mail or userid as a login and then actually load a website, you'll have arrived at your destination!

The DB portion of my commute was 25-30 minutes off-peak which is plenty of time to do some (web) reading. Plenty of people, especially BE Commuter customers, have much longer trips than I did.

schemingbohemia

n97 mini wrote: »

Not aimed at you directly, but there's no such thing as free wifi. Someone has to pay, and he's proposing the tax-payer pay. I say if you want something then pay for it yourself, and don't be saddling it on others.

I suspect the powers that be didn't realise when they introduced a motor tax system that favours diesel that the emissions impact negatively on air quality, and and therefore people's lungs, I suspect similarly they don't know that wifi is in the microwave wavelength and lots of it mightn't be too good for the auld health.

Do you wear a colander on your head to protect you from the nasty microwaves?

Read some actual facts here
http://www.badscience.net/index.php?s=microwave

coylemj

foggy_lad wrote: »

I have used the free WI-FI on the Bus Eireann services to Ashbourne and found it great. easy to set up and I was browsing freely in less than two minutes!

markpb wrote: »

The DB portion of my commute was 25-30 minutes off-peak which is plenty of time to do some (web) reading. Plenty of people, especially BE Commuter customers, have much longer trips than I did.

Who's talking about buses? Read the thread title, this is about wi-fi on commuter rail services. Irish Rail will probably sign up with someone like Bitbuzz who will put you through so many hoops to connect that it just won't be worth it.

markpb

coylemj wrote: »

Who's talking about buses? I thought the thread was about wi-fi on commuter rail services. Irish Rail will probably sign up with someone like Bitbuzz who will put you through so many hoops to connect that it just won't be worth it.

Sorry, my mistake. Anyway, plenty of Dart and suburban rail journeys are long too, DART is anything but speedy.

parsi

foggy_lad wrote: »

I have used the free WI-FI on the Bus Eireann services to Ashbourne and found it great. easy to set up and I was browsing freely in less than two minutes!

Foggy has been hacked again

parsi

coylemj wrote: »

Who's talking about buses? Read the thread title, this is about wi-fi on commuter rail services. Irish Rail will probably sign up with someone like Bitbuzz who will put you through so many hoops to connect that it just won't be worth it.

On the iPhone I found Irish Rail Wifi easier to connect to and use than CityLink. It was great going up to Dublin but poorer coming home.

fats83

n97 mini wrote: »

Not aimed at you directly, but there's no such thing as free wifi. Someone has to pay, and he's proposing the tax-payer pay. I say if you want something then pay for it yourself, and don't be saddling it on others.

I suspect the powers that be didn't realise when they introduced a motor tax system that favours diesel that the emissions impact negatively on air quality, and and therefore people's lungs, I suspect similarly they don't know that wifi is in the microwave wavelength and lots of it mightn't be too good for the auld health.

Agreed! someone has to pay for it. Sell it as advertising maybe, "Free Wi-Fi onboard brought to you this month by Vodafone". I am not to worried about the microwaves (yet), it is the mortgage payments, bin charges, home tax, negaitive equity, rising health insurance, rising fuel prices, and anything else that is costing me money causing me headaches.. :-) Have a good weekend.

dowlingm

fats83 wrote: »

Agreed! someone has to pay for it. Sell it as advertising maybe, "Free Wi-Fi onboard brought to you this month by Vodafone".

Exactly how it works at Toronto Pearson Airport, except the telco is Rogers not Vodafone

Cookie_Monster

parsi wrote: »

It was great going up to Dublin but poorer coming home.

Like everything else

loyatemu

3G coverage on the southern section of the Dart line is terrible. I've used Vodafone, O2 and Tesco (who are O2 really) and coverage is patchy/non-existent between Blackrock and Killiney because the track is mostly in cuttings. (and also on the Bray-Greystones section for obvious reasons).

If they sort out coverage along this stretch then it may be beneficial, though they'll have to do some sort of per-user throttling as you could have 100+ users per train sharing a single 3G link.

coylemj

loyatemu wrote: »

3G coverage on the southern section of the Dart line is terrible. I've used Vodafone, O2 and Tesco (who are O2 really) and coverage is patchy/non-existent between Blackrock and Killiney because the track is mostly in cuttings. (and also on the Bray-Greystones section for obvious reasons).

If they sort out coverage along this stretch then it may be beneficial, though they'll have to do some sort of per-user throttling as you could have 100+ users per train sharing a single 3G link.

Don't really see any solution to this, the problem is that along a large section of the track south of Blackrock there is a stone wall or embankment on one side and Dublin Bay on the other.

You can run a LAN through your home electricity circuit, couldn't IR run a network via the overhead power lines and ensure uniform high qualty coverage on board the trains?

dowlingm

VIA Rail Canada use a transparent proxy and block streaming video over their free wifi, so websites with embedded youtubes for example have a box where the youtube would be of the "this content not permitted" variety.

howiya

coylemj wrote: »

Don't really see any solution to this, the problem is that along a large section of the track south of Blackrock there is a stone wall or embankment on one side and Dublin Bay on the other.

You can run a LAN through your home electricity circuit, couldn't IR run a network via the overhead power lines and ensure uniform high qualty coverage on board the trains?

Is the quality of coverage not a matter for the telcos rather than IR?

bg07

dowlingm wrote: »

VIA Rail Canada use a transparent proxy and block streaming video over their free wifi, so websites with embedded youtubes for example have a box where the youtube would be of the "this content not permitted" variety.

This is the case on the Irishrail Dublin to Cork WiFi as well.

bg07

dowlingm wrote: »

VIA Rail Canada use a transparent proxy and block streaming video over their free wifi, so websites with embedded youtubes for example have a box where the youtube would be of the "this content not permitted" variety.

This is the case on the Irishrail Dublin to Cork WiFi as well.

coylemj

howiya wrote: »

Is the quality of coverage not a matter for the telcos rather than IR?

I'm suggesting a way for IR to get around the problem. The only way the telcos could solve the problem is to recommission one of those old lightships and anchor it out in Dublin bay with a mast attached to it.

murphaph

I found the free wifi in Copenhgagen pretty cool tbh as a tourist with no data plan in Denmark. In Germany I have a data plan but it doesn't work underground (yet-ordinary phone calls are possible underground but not data).

I think Ireland needs to make itself as attractive as possible to tourists and this is part of that, if it can be delivered for reasonable cost.

loyatemu

coylemj wrote: »

Don't really see any solution to this, the problem is that along a large section of the track south of Blackrock there is a stone wall or embankment on one side and Dublin Bay on the other.

You can run a LAN through your home electricity circuit, couldn't IR run a network via the overhead power lines and ensure uniform high qualty coverage on board the trains?

I think IR (or their WiFi subcontractors) did a deal with some of the mobile telcos to improve coverage along the Cork line when they were rolling out the service there - I assume they'd have to do something similar for the Dart otherwise there's no point installing WiFi.

As to how the mobile telcos could improve coverage along that section - some sort of leaky cable run alongside the track perhaps? (a quick google suggests that you can also supply WiFi directly from a leaky cable, though I can't see this working well from inside a train) - the mobile and FM radio coverage in the Port Tunnel is provided in this way.

thebman

n97 mini wrote: »

Adding wifi to commuter rail services won't attract any more customers, and the majority of customers now have 3G anyway.

I really don't see the point, especially from the state's perspective. I think it's a waste of money that we don't have.

If everyone or even just most people on a train was using 3G, the mobile network likely wouldn't be able to supply a connection to everyone in the area and on the train.

I don't really know but I doubt the majority of customers have 3G or at least data plans at this stage and if they do, they are very limited.

loyatemu wrote: »

3G coverage on the southern section of the Dart line is terrible. I've used Vodafone, O2 and Tesco (who are O2 really) and coverage is patchy/non-existent between Blackrock and Killiney because the track is mostly in cuttings. (and also on the Bray-Greystones section for obvious reasons).

If they sort out coverage along this stretch then it may be beneficial, though they'll have to do some sort of per-user throttling as you could have 100+ users per train sharing a single 3G link.

3G coverage in all built up areas is fairly poor due to the number of people using it and the lack of capacity. It is then crap in non-built up areas because population density makes it not-profitable to provide a great service to all areas (some rural areas get way better service than towns ATM though). It should get better once LTE (or 4G) starts being rolled out though and LTE won't require new hardware.

I think they'll likely be able to utilise multiple connections on the 3G link. I imagine the mobile network providers have solutions for such issues since we aren't the first ones to roll this out. The issue is mostly with Irish mobile networks ability to provide enough bandwidth for everyone on the train and for the users in the surrounding area.

It is going to require upgrades to the trains and the networks IMO in order to provide the speeds people expect.

dowlingm

Just saw this article on VIA Rail Canada's wifi rollout, interesting way they're doing the backhaul:
http://www.viarail.ca/en/about-via-rail/capital-investment/article/world%E2%80%99s-fastest-wifi-rails