De Rossa to retire as an MEP

steelcityblues

As of next month.

Good. Useless gravy train politician, for far too long.


http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0116/derossap.html

Manach

Pity, in that I did not agree with his politics but found him one of the few politicians to communicate intelligently and at length about an issue.

Spacedog

Goodbye ‘Punches’ De Rossa, you'll be missed.

mikemac1

" It is a deliberate misrepresentation to suggest that tens of thousands will suddenly descend en masse on Ireland." [Proinsias De Rossa, I.T.Letters, 20/8/2002

" I estimate that fewer than 2,000 will choose our distant shores each year." [P.De Rossa, I.T. Letters, 20/8/2002 ]

And was an MEP for three years at the time so not inexperienced

I'm not posting on the rights or wrongs of what happened, just our leaders don't seem to know much at all

DizzyOC

About time. The only time you ever see him is at election time. The worst type of MEP. Good riddance.

newman10

And Joe Costello's wife gets the job.

FFS Fianna Fail could not have done it better

MadsL

Emer Costello is a fine politician, great Councillor, Former Lord Mayor and willing to listen to her constituents, I should know, I am one. She's a bit more than Joe Costello's wife! She's earned this.

Nation of begrudgers indeed.

DizzyOC

MadsL wrote: »

Emer Costello is a fine politician, great Councillor, Former Lord Mayor and willing to listen to her constituents, I should know, I am one. She's a bit more than Joe Costello's wife! She's earned this.

Nation of begrudgers indeed.

Why no by-election? It's a fiddle. I know that's how the system works, but it's being abused. DeRossa knew he'd go in the middle of a term to set Costello up nicely. If you're not prepared to do the full term, don't run. Cynical, abusive & insulting.

bijapos

DizzyOC wrote: »

Why no by-election? It's a fiddle. I know that's how the system works, but it's being abused. DeRossa knew he'd go in the middle of a term to set Costello up nicely. If you're not prepared to do the full term, don't run. Cynical, abusive & insulting.

European elections here are done on a form of list system, before election the candidate must nominate the next few who will take over from them in case of retirement from the seat, De Rossa/Labour nominated Costello, I think this is done in advance of the election. I think the sytem is OK, I'd rather that than the protracted drawn out saga of a by-election.

Where it is cynical is that it was an open secret coming up to the 2009 election that De Rossa would stand down at half way and give the next person a long run at the job and the 2014 election. The system is open to abuse, that of course doesnt mean that it should be abused.

Incidentally of the three who were voted in Dublin in 2009, De Rossa has retired and will be replaced, Joe Higgins got elected to the Dail and was replaced and Gay Mitchell attempted to get elected to the Aras, if he had been succesful he would have been replaced.

Elsewhere Alan Kelly in South was replaced by Phil Prendergast, so it leaves us with a 33% drop out rate.

There was a bit of a dig at Costello in a newspaper today, I'm not sure which one, I heard it on the radio, but her husband is a Joe Costello, a Junior Minister, her sister was nominated to be a District Court judge last year, and another sister was nominated to the Seanad in 2011 after losing in the GE in Louth and losing in the Seanad election on the Administrative Panel. Nice work if you can get it.

DizzyOC

That's funny - the whole Costello family suckling at the teat of the taxpayer! Good luck to them!

*shudder*

Lockstep

DizzyOC wrote: »

Why no by-election? It's a fiddle. I know that's how the system works, but it's being abused. DeRossa knew he'd go in the middle of a term to set Costello up nicely. If you're not prepared to do the full term, don't run. Cynical, abusive & insulting.

Wait excruciating months before the government decides to hold a by-election (as happened with the Donegal by election)?
Yeah, good luck with that.

later12

MadsL wrote: »

She's earned this.

Earned it?

How does one earn a seat at the European parliament?

I wouldn't have thought winning 2,000 votes should qualify anyone to represent a constituency with an electorate of about 800,000.

The Dublin constituency is looking a bit farcical at the minute.

Two of the three MEPs won't even have been elected to the job.

Then again it's better than nothing. The other Parachutist, Paul Murphy, has never been elected to anything in his life.

MadsL

DizzyOC wrote: »

That's funny - the whole Costello family suckling at the teat of the taxpayer! Good luck to them!

*shudder*

Completely unjustified. Joe has been re-elected four times, generally for doing the job he was elected to do. Emer is a hard-working local politician who has the respect of all sides of Dublin City Councillors.

Earned it?
How does one earn a seat at the European parliament?

I meant from an internal Labour party perspective..she'll do a good job, imho. Do you think she won't be a good MEP for some reason?

later12

MadsL wrote: »

I meant from an internal Labour party perspective

Oh from an internal Labour party perspective?

Perhaps you should have clarified that.

Because from an objective perspective, with 2000 out of 800,000 votes, Emer Costello has certainly not earned her seat.

I understand that this co-operative system is as legal as the co-operative system that has previously existed in Ireland before we knew better, but it is just as rotten.

MadsL

later10 wrote: »

Oh from an internal Labour party perspective?

Perhaps you should have clarified that.

Because from an objective perspective, with 2000 out of 800,000 votes, Emer Costello has certainly not earned her seat.

I understand that this co-operative system is as legal as the co-operative system that has previously existed in Ireland before we knew better, but it is just as rotten.

What do you propose instead?? (or who do you propose, more accurately) - she'll stand on her record at the next European election when it comes around. In the meantime she is already an elected public representive, and was unanimously elected Lord Mayor of Dublin in 2009.

You mention 2000 votes, but in 2004 Emer was second highest voted candidate, less than 0.5% behind Christy Burke at 14.49% of the vote. In 2009 she hammered Christy in the polls 17.5% vs 12.92% - with Maureen O'Sullivan naturally topping the poll on Tony Gregory's memory.

I just wonder what level of turnout you would expect if we had a European by-election at the moment, not to mention the chances of some looney getting in riding the anti-EU sentiment based on a low turnout.

Hate the game, not the player ffs.

By the way I have never been a member of the Irish Labour party, have not campaigned for the Costellos either. I find Emer to be an honest, caring local representive. I have had occasion to meet Joe and ask for his help with a Govt dept and have attended a meeting with Joe in relation to saving Moore St.

later12

MadsL wrote: »

What do you propose instead??

I propose taking full advantage of Ireland's reasonably unique electoral system by awarding a replacement seat to the next available candidate on the electoral PR-STV result.

Awarding a seat to the next available candidate is a little more hazardous in systems under which preference is non-transferable, but in Ireland I see no reason why this system should not be adapted.

In this case, the seat would go to Eoin Ryan, who took in the region of 80,000 votes last time around, and was not eliminated until the 7th count when Mary Lou McDonald pushed Joe Higgins over the line.

You mention 2000 votes, but in 2004 Emer was second highest voted candidate, less than 0.5% behind Christy Burke at 14.49% of the vote. In 2009 she hammered Christy in the polls 17.5% vs 12.92% - with Maureen O'Sullivan naturally topping the poll on Tony Gregory's memory.

I just wonder what level of turnout you would expect if we had a European by-election at the moment, not to mention the chances of some looney getting in riding the anti-EU sentiment based on a low turnout.

Hate the game, not the player ffs.

By the way I have never been a member of the Irish Labour party, have not campaigned for the Costellos either. I find Emer to be an honest, caring local representive. I have had occasion to meet Joe and ask for his help with a Govt dept and have attended a meeting with Joe in relation to saving Moore St.

You're getting ridiculously defensive about this.

I have no interest in "Emer" or "Christy", whoever that is, nor in your history with the Labour party.

I am simply pointing out that there is a more palatable and a fairer method of allotting replacement seats.

MadsL

later10 wrote: »

I propose taking full advantage of Ireland's reasonably unique electoral system by awarding a replacement seat to the next available candidate on the electoral PR-STV result.

Awarding a seat to the next available candidate is a little more hazardous in systems under which preference is non-transferable, but in Ireland I see no reason why this system should not be adapted.

In this case, the seat would go to Eoin Ryan, who took in the region of 80,000 votes last time around, and was not eliminated until the 7th count when Mary Lou McDonald pushed Joe Higgins over the line.

That's fine - at least you are not calling for a immediate by-election. However that is not the system we use; and whilst I might support such a change - as I think that is a reasonable solution: however I do see one flaw - in this case I would (hypothetically) have voted for the policies of a particular party - and not the policies of the other party. Your system potentially carries a 180 degree turn in policy. At least the substitute system allows for continuity of policy.

You're getting ridiculously defensive about this.

I have no interest in "Emer" or "Christy", whoever that is, nor in your history with the Labour party.

Defensive because you seem to be implying that "Emer" (I thought she was clearly identified by the way) somehow does not 'deserve' the seat because she hasn't yet stood in an election. The two elections she did run in she was the 3rd (of 4) and 2nd (of 4) to be elected. Your argument about 2000 from 800,000 is nonsense because she didn't stand in that election. However, she has be appointed by the party that was elected to continue the work that the MEP was elected to do.

If you have no interest in "Emer" - then what's this rot about "from an objective perspective, with 2000 out of 800,000 votes, Emer Costello has certainly not earned her seat". That 2000/800,000 number is very misleading way to express the situation. Perhaps you don't regard Local Politics very highly?

I am simply pointing out that there is a more palatable and a fairer method of allotting replacement seats.

Fairer in respect of individual 'also-rans' not fairer in terms of party politics. And party politics, despite parish-pump independents in Ireland is what we have in Europe.

later12

MadsL wrote: »

however I do see one flaw - in this case I would (hypothetically) have voted for the policies of a particular party - and not the policies of the other party. Your system potentially carries a 180 degree turn in policy. At least the substitute system allows for continuity of policy.

Well that's elections. I've never seen a ballot paper where I wouldn't replace the entire ballot with other candidates of my own choosing, or more candidates from a particular party.

But I believe that it is a basic tenet of a modern democracy that the candidate must put him or herself before the people and outline the views that s/he represents within the broad party machine, or as an individual. A candidate needs to have some basic political or technical capital as well, and that needs to be identified and assessed rigorously during an election campaign.

Defensive because you seem to be implying that "Emer" (I thought she was clearly identified by the way) somehow does not 'deserve' the seat because she hasn't yet stood in an election.

The fact that she doesn't deserve a seat has nothing in itself to do with her previous electoral victory.

The fact that she doesn't deserve a seat comes from the basic principle that no man "deserves" a seat as a lawmaker and a public policy shaper. Ireland is a republic, and that is a core republican belief.

If you have no interest in "Emer" - then what's this rot about "from an objective perspective, with 2000 out of 800,000 votes, Emer Costello has certainly not earned her seat".

I am simply highlighting the absurdity of the situation. Dublin is an enormous constituency and the European Parliament is a very important political institution. To get elected to that institution, we should be demanding a real democratic process.

It never ceases to amaze me (i) how bad Europe is at improving public perceptions of and confidence in its institutions, and (ii) how bad domestic politicians are in doing this at a time when Europe was never more important. No wonder confidence in the European institutions is falling when rough weather combines with what may be perceived to be an inadequate or a deficient governance.

Fairer in respect of individual 'also-rans' not fairer in terms of party politics.

Perhaps you mean not fair from a political party's perspective, but elections do not exist to serve political parties. If a party candidate cannot or will not sit his term then, under our transferable preference system, the seat should go to the individual with the nest highest preference count, be he a member of the vacating representative's party or not.

View

Just to clarify some issues on our elected MEPs and their replacements.

1) The election of MEPs is governed by the laws of the respective member states (i.e. there is no EU standard on this despite multiple attempts of the EP to get the member states to agree to one).

2) The only EU level agreement on this is that the electoral system used must:

a) be a proportional system (i.e. not a FPTP style system),
b) where a member states has a legal electoral threshold, it may be no more than 5%,
c) the system must be either an electoral list system or a single transferable vote system (and as we were the only member state (plus NI) using STV when this was agreed, it was probably us holding agreement up on this)

3) The relevant electoral legislation for the EP elections here was decided upon by the Oireachtas - it was our democratic decision that results in us having the current system of filling vacancies as they arise.

4) The system decided upon by the Oireachtas borrows heavily from the list system.

5) In the closed list system (as opposed to open list), a voter votes for a party only. The total number of mandates (i.e. votes) results in seats for the parties elected. These are filled in the order the respective parties specified in advance of the election.

6) As the voters have given mandates to parties rather than individuals, the resignation of an individual results in the filling of the vacancy by another person from the same party. This means that the voters' expressed mandate for a party continues to be carried out as the party gets to continue to pursue its policies with the same voting strength as before the resignation.

7) In the system decided on democratically by the Oireachtas, they have - rightly or wrongly - hybridised our standard PR-STV (where people vote for individuals) with the above aspect of the closed list system (where people vote for parties).

8) To do so, the ballot papers in the EP elections here have printed on them:

a) the name of the candidate and their party status (i.e. party or independent), AND,
b) an explicit mention of the replacement list for the candidate (although interestingly the sample ballot paper in the Oireachtas legislation showed this as being a replacement list for the party rather than the candidate)

9) The replacement list for the candidates are available in each polling booth on the day of the election (and are also published in advance of the election itself), so they are there for any voter who wants to check them.

10) Hence, under the system the Oireachtas opted for, when a voter votes in an EP election, they are "giving a mandate" to both the individual candidate specified and also all the candidates on their replacement list to replace the individual candidate should it be necessary.

11) Therefore, when an MEP resigns here and they are replaced with a person on their replacement list, their replacement is coming from a list that the voters here have given their mandate to in the EP elections.

12) The replacement MEP therefore has a mandate just as the original MEP did.

Lastly, the obvious way to avoid any such confusion would be for us to use a list system for the EP elections (preferably open rather than closed) as:

a) this would put more emphasis on the fact that a voter is voting for a party and its associated policies, and,
b) it would avoid some of "media star" politicians who have unquestionably gone forward for election to the EP purely for name recognition purposes rather than out of any genuine interest in the role of an MEP.

That though is up to the Oireachtas to decide upon and they certainly have time to do so before the next EP elections should they feel so inclined.

SEEMagazine

Had a few drinks with the man at a birthday party once. Back in the Democratic Left days. Had hoped he'd sing but nope...

I think it's funny how the debate focused on the voting systems in use. Ireland and Malta are the only countries which use PR STV and both produce radically different results.

It's well known within global political science that Ireland is a law unto itself when it comes to such things.

We all knew how the MEP system worked when we went in and voted. We all voted by party most likely, so in theory noone who voted for DeRossa should have a complaint about his replacement.

Arguing that it gives the new MEP a 'leg up' for future elections is moot: This is how politics works. The party involved puts in people they feel can do the best job, because if they went and put in incompetent people then it affects them on a national scale. of course, being fair, this CAN happen.

I would suggest that if you feel the secondaries are poor choices that you become a member of said party, in this case Labour, and lobby for different choices in future.

The first duty of democracy for the electorate is to vote... For a politician it's to get (re)elected, since they can't do the best good (from their perspective) outside of the system.