Entrepreneur insists Ireland should not pay back its €180bn debt

meglome

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/entrepreneur-insists-ireland-should-not-pay-back-its-180bn-debt-2989322.html

Entrepreneur and businessman John Teeling believes that Ireland cannot, and should not, pay back its €180bn debt and that the euro cannot survive in its current guise.

Mr Teeling, who sold the world's oldest distillery, Cooley, to the American bourbon whiskey giant Beam for the dollar equivalent of €73m late last year says there is no ethical, moral or legal reason for ordinary working-class and middle-class Irish taxpayers to pay back the debt.

"I'm afraid of the euro, very much so. You will notice that the deal I did ( selling Cooley) was in US dollars. The euro cannot survive. it is not possible in its present form," he said in a radio interview.

The deal to sell Cooley brought a big pay day for its investors as well as Mr Teeling and his family, who owned about one-third of the firm.

But he is astonished the myth still exists that Ireland can repay its €180bn debt, of which €80bn is for the banks.

"If I live to be 180 years old it will not be repaid. Spain is in the same position, Italy probably, and Greece certainly," he said.

He said this money must be written off one way or another -- by way of negotiation or ultimately by default.

"The worry is that the IMF and the ECB don't do write-offs . . . but there is no economic reason this money can be paid," he said.

Mr Teeling, 62, who is the founder and chairman of African Diamonds, also lectured on business and finance in UCD for 20 years.

He said that if Ireland managed to scale back its debt, by way of a write-off, to €100bn

"It would mean we would not be paying back the €5bn a year in interest which is the amount the austerity programme is seeking to save.

"I think if the current situation continues we are, in a couple of years' time, going to be paying back €10bn a year in interest alone. That is complete nonsense. The austerity programme cannot work at that level. We cannot take another €10bn, €15bn or €20bn out of this economy," he told Marian Finucane.

He said Ireland should reschedule the debt as you would do with a company or a mortgage.

"We could start by looking for a holiday of five or six years to allow us to get back on our feet and then you would have a 30- or 35-year horizon during which inflation would wipe it out," he said.

I know a lot of us weren't happy we blanket guaranteed the banks and paid out 70 billion on them, especially with Anglo. But I'm kinda disgusted with some of Teelings remarks. We borrowed 110 billion to fund our overspending over the last few years. We didn't have to do that, we could have gone cold turkey and accepted the unpleasant consequences. He's saying we shouldn't pay that back, getting new terms is one thing but stuffing our neighbours who loaned us money when we needed it is pretty low IMO.

What do you think of this comments?

Is mise le key

meglome wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/entrepreneur-insists-ireland-should-not-pay-back-its-180bn-debt-2989322.html



I know a lot of us weren't happy we blanket guaranteed the banks and paid out 70 billion on them, especially with Anglo. But I'm kinda disgusted with some of Teelings remarks. We borrowed 110 billion to fund our overspending over the last few years. We didn't have to do that, we could have gone cold turkey and accepted the unpleasant consequences. He's saying we shouldn't pay that back, getting new terms is one thing but stuffing our neighbours who loaned us money when we needed it is pretty low IMO.

What do you think of this comments?

To be honest, this thread would unfold the way many other countless ones on here have,

You, Oscar Bravo, Permabear, Godge etc etc etc, would keep on insisting we stay on the same course of action we are on, while prominent capitalists such as teeling, soros, stiglitz etc etc etc are all singing in chorus that this debt is unsustainable & will need to be written off.

Now you can shoot me down all you want as being a lazy, ideological, sponger, hippy, socialist etc etc etc etc........

But i know who's words hold more weight.

I said it before & i will say it again,

The reality is this whole house of cards is going to come tumbling down & it will not be solved by adding more debt to debt & taking more money out of an already depressed economy.

It just wont work, cancel the debt.

Killer Pigeon

I think that the obligation to pay back debt should lie solely with the people who borrowed it in the first place, not with the people as a collective. In hindsight, this is the difficulty with the fact that a large chunk of Irish debt is now nationalised.

In my honest opinion, any individual who got themselves into debt (including those mortgage holders who took out mortgages in excess of €300k when they knew they couldn't afford it) still have the obligation to pay it back. They are the ones who need to be thought a lesson is fiscal responsibility. Having the state bending over to heel their wounds is only going to make the situation worse in the long term, cue nanny-state.

meglome

Is mise le key wrote: »

You, Oscar Bravo, Permabear, Godge etc etc etc, would keep on insisting we stay on the same course of action we are on, while prominent capitalists such as teeling, soros, stiglitz etc etc etc are all singing in chorus that this debt is unsustainable & will need to be written off.

I won't speak for others but I don't think that's what they would be saying at all, and I'm certainly not. There are many courses of action we could take and quite possibly the debt is unsustainable. The point I'm making though is we borrowed most of this money to pay for our deficit in the last few years, we didn't borrow the majority of it for the banks. It was loaned to us in good faith so what gives us the right to stuff those people who gave us the money. Yes hopefully there is another deal to be had but defaulting is reprehensible. And that's leaving aside the consequences of any default.

It's a bit like going to your neighbours to borrow money for a car, but instead of borrowing off one neighbour for a fiesta we borrow off multiple neighbours for a merc. Then just tell them to fukk off as we don't think we can afford to pay the money back... it's a bit of a hassle an' all.

Killer Pigeon wrote: »

I think that the obligation to pay back debt should lie solely with the people who borrowed it in the first place, not with the people as a collective. In hindsight, this is the difficulty with the fact that a large chunk of Irish debt is now nationalised.

In my honest opinion, any individual who got themselves into debt (including those mortgage holders who took out mortgages in excess of €300k when they knew they couldn't afford it) still have the obligation to pay it back. They are the ones who need to be thought a lesson is fiscal responsibility. Having the state bending over to heel their wounds is only going to make the situation worse in the long term, cue nanny-state.

So what about the hundreds of thousands who benefited from most of the borrowed money? The civil service, the unemployed, mothers, pensioners etc etc, do they all have to pay it pay as well?

Chucky the tree

Is mise le key wrote: »

To be honest, this thread would unfold the way many other countless ones on here have,

You, Oscar Bravo, Permabear, Godge etc etc etc, would keep on insisting we stay on the same course of action we are on, while prominent capitalists such as teeling, soros, stiglitz etc etc etc are all singing in chorus that this debt is unsustainable & will need to be written off.

Now you can shoot me down all you want as being a lazy, ideological, sponger, hippy, socialist etc etc etc etc........

But i know who's words hold more weight.

I said it before & i will say it again,

The reality is this whole house of cards is going to come tumbling down & it will not be solved by adding more debt to debt & taking more money out of an already depressed economy.

It just wont work, cancel the debt.

Easy for take peoples money and then say "oh lets cancel our debt".

davoxx

meglome wrote: »

It was loaned to us in good faith so what gives us the right to stuff those people who gave us the money.

err they do charge interest for those very kind humane loans of good faith. but i found out that it is a business, and they charge interets for the risk of the loan not being paid back. i also found out that they should have insurance to cover loans.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Easy for to take peoples money and then when you have say "oh lets cancel our debt".

it is, but it's even easier when you control all the money in the first place to make people have to borrow from you in the first place ...

Chucky the tree

davoxx wrote: »

it is, but it's even easier when you control all the money in the first place to make people have to borrow from you in the first place ...

We didn't have to borrow. We decided to borrow. We could have let the banks collaspe and then cut €20bn from social welfare and public sector overnight but we didn't do this.

davoxx

Chucky the tree wrote: »

We didn't have to borrow. We decided to borrow. We could have let the banks collaspe and then cut €20m from social welfare and public sector overnight but we didn't do this.

or we could have taxed the wealthy a bit more to make up the 20 mil.

but realistically we had to borrow right?
all governments need to borrow to fund the running of the country to build infrastructure, and then the government pays back the loan with interest from taxes, because a country saving up money is just plain wrong ... that is the job of banks and the financial sector.

but yes i do agree with you when you say that the irish government could have lived within their means, but then ireland would not have had a great credit rating should we need funds ...

Chucky the tree

davoxx wrote: »

or we could have taxed the wealthy a bit more to make up the 20 mil.

but realistically we had to borrow right?
all governments need to borrow to fund the running of the country top build infrastructure, and then the governement pays back the loan with interest from taxes, because a country saving up money is just plain wrong ... that is the job of banks and the financial sector.

but yes i do agree with you when you say that the irish government could have lived within their means, but then ireland would not have had a great credit rating should we need funds ...

Sorry that's should be €20bn. There aren't enough rich to tax to make €20bn unfortunatly. If we have to borrow we have to pay it back. Goodluck borrowing if you don't pay it back.

professore

meglome wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/entrepreneur-insists-ireland-should-not-pay-back-its-180bn-debt-2989322.html



I know a lot of us weren't happy we blanket guaranteed the banks and paid out 70 billion on them, especially with Anglo. But I'm kinda disgusted with some of Teelings remarks. We borrowed 110 billion to fund our overspending over the last few years. We didn't have to do that, we could have gone cold turkey and accepted the unpleasant consequences. He's saying we shouldn't pay that back, getting new terms is one thing but stuffing our neighbours who loaned us money when we needed it is pretty low IMO.

What do you think of this comments?

I don't see where he says we shouldn't pay it back at all - he's saying putting it on a longer repayment schedule. And to be honest our neighbours are only looking out for their own best interests, they're not doing us a favour by lending us the money. If they were they wouldn't be controlling every aspect of what our government can and can't do fiscally. Don't get me wrong - much of the troika program is good - but the fact remains that we pay up to 6.7% and surrender our soverignty for the money. Doesn't sound very neighbourly to me.

If you want to talk about neighbourly, then talk about the UK, Denmark and Sweden, who contributed significant sums to the bailout fund while having no say in it's implementation due to them being out of the Euro.

As a previous Europhile I am extremely concerned at the undemocratic direction the Euro region is headed in.

Chucky the tree

professore wrote: »

I don't see where he says we shouldn't pay it back at all - he's saying putting it on a longer repayment schedule. And to be honest our neighbours are only looking out for their own best interests, they're not doing us a favour by lending us the money. If they were they wouldn't be controlling every aspect of what our government can and can't do fiscally. Don't get me wrong - much of the troika program is good - but the fact remains that we pay up to 6.7% and surrender our soverignty for the money. Doesn't sound very neighbourly to me.

If you want to talk about neighbourly, then talk about the UK, Denmark and Sweden, who contributed significant sums to the bailout fund while having no say in it's implementation due to them being out of the Euro.

As a previous Europhile I am extremely concerned at the undemocratic direction the Euro region is headed in.

UK - €3.8bn http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm101215/debtext/101215-0002.htm
Sweden - €1.1bn http://www.swedishwire.com/economy/7315-sweden-offers-ireland-11-billion-


Your definition of significant is alot different to mine.

irishh_bob

Chucky the tree wrote: »

We didn't have to borrow. We decided to borrow. We could have let the banks collaspe and then cut €20bn from social welfare and public sector overnight but we didn't do this.

wasnt just a case of the political will not being there to cut the deficit over night , the big guns in europe were afraid the banks around europe would fall like dominos had we let out banks go to the wall , thier was considerable external pressure on lennehan and co to cover all the debts

Killer Pigeon

meglome wrote: »

So what about the hundreds of thousands who benefited from most of the borrowed money? The civil service, the unemployed, mothers, pensioners etc etc, do they all have to pay it pay as well?

The state hired civil service to perform a job, it's not the civil servants' fault, rather the government's.

Mothers ... pfft.

Pensioners. Well I mean a lot of them worked throughout their years and paid taxes, of course they deserve a state pension.

Irelandsfinest

It's best to pay back a debt even if the terms were less than favourable. Pay them back and be done with it and them.

Chucky the tree

irishh_bob wrote: »

wasnt just a case of the political will not being there to cut the deficit over night , the big guns in europe were afraid the banks around europe would fall like dominos had we let out banks go to the wall , thier was considerable external pressure on lennehan and co to cover all the debts

He still could of told them to jump, he didn't though. When you gurantee something you can just pull out of it because you don't like it anymore.