Island of Ireland damaged by Comet in 6th Century

Jesus Nut

Can anyone shed some light on this?

A few researches believe that some time in the 6th Century the Island of Ireland and UK etc (Britan at the time) was damaged from a Comet that wiped out much of Bolivia around 532AD.
It was said that the land was not able to support human life etc for up to 11 years after the event.
The same researchers believe that it was surpressed by the Church at the time because the whole idea of comets falling from space was just not possible! The earth was flat remember.

Anyways, would be interesting to hear others views on the Irish Comet and the overall effect it had.
Mabey the comet was the real reason for columba for leaving our island at that time!!!!! Will we ever know?

ejmaztec

Jesus Nut wrote: »

Can anyone shed some light on this?

A few researches believe that some time in the 6th Century the Island of Ireland and UK etc (Britan at the time) was damaged from a Comet that wiped out much of Bolivia around 532AD.
It was said that the land was not able to support human life etc for up to 11 years after the event.
The same researchers believe that it was surpressed by the Church at the time because the whole idea of comets falling from space was just not possible! The earth was flat remember.

Anyways, would be interesting to hear others views on the Irish Comet and the overall effect it had.
Mabey the comet was the real reason for columba for leaving our island at that time!!!!! Will we ever know?

Talking of light, wasn't this incident supposed to be the real reason for the "Dark Ages" actually being referred to as "Dark"?

I remember seeing a documentary a few years ago, where a scientist from NI went into detail on the subject, explaining that the debris in the atmosphere blocked the sunlight for a period, so crops didn't grow etc., leading to very hard times.

I'll have to go for a Google.

Manach

This is incorrect.
Firstly, any impact debris would be present in the sub-soil, such as tektites etc.
Secondly, I've never come across any documentary evidence that mention this for this period.
Thirdy, the assumption that this was a cover-up by the Church belongs in the pages of the DaVinci code.

Jesus Nut

Manach wrote: »

This is incorrect.
Firstly, any impact debris would be present in the sub-soil, such as tektites etc.
Secondly, I've never come across any documentary evidence that mention this for this period.
Thirdy, the assumption that this was a cover-up by the Church belongs in the pages of the DaVinci code.

Your reply comes of as a bit of a stockholm syndrome type of person.

I didnt say it was correct or incorrect but more that it was a belief. The eveidence suggests that it did happen but there is far to much pressure to tell the truth to the people because of the effect such truth would have.
You have to keep on telling lies to cover up.
Its like the whole celtic thing, a simple search will reveal that the term "Celt" or "Celtic" didnt even exist prior to 1749.

Britan was not impacted as such by this comet but more damaged by it when it flew past low overhead the islands burning up the atmosphere. Look into the Bolivia Comet strike of 6th century.

My opinion is that the history of this event was surpressed by the powers that be at the time hence history has been made up alot along the way

ejmaztec

Manach wrote: »

This is incorrect.
Firstly, any impact debris would be present in the sub-soil, such as tektites etc.
Secondly, I've never come across any documentary evidence that mention this for this period.
Thirdy, the assumption that this was a cover-up by the Church belongs in the pages of the DaVinci code.

What's incorrect?

dubhthach

Jesus Nut wrote: »

.
Its like the whole celtic thing, a simple search will reveal that the term "Celt" or "Celtic" didnt even exist prior to 1749.(

You mean before 1709 and in the English language. It's a direct borrowing from Greek (via Latin). The word Κελτοί (Keltoi) dates to at least the 6th century BC in Greek. Either way Irish and Welsh are closely related languages, both in turn are closest suriving languages to Gaulish which is the language of Gaul. The Gauls are of course "La Tène Celts" in material culture. The argument is like saying that because the word Tocharian didn't exist in english until the 20th century that there were no people speaking a group of related languages (at least 2) that are know in english language as Tocharian.

dubhthach

I should add unless you can provide some links to scientific journals (Astrophysics etc.) that prove that such a comet strike occurred in Bolivia then I'm going to lock the thread. Or move it to somewhere like AH.

CDfm

Halley's Comet 532 & Dionysius the monk who did calenders and stuff.

DaVinci FTW.

Conspiracy Theories ???

ejmaztec

Mike Baillie was the scientist to whom I referred earlier. It's not as if he plucked his theory from nowhere, and there seems to be enough evidence to support it. I don't know about the Bolivian aspect of it, but there seemed to be enough going on across the rest of the planet without that.

Upon examining the tree-ring record, Baillie noticed indications of severe environmental downturns around 2354 BC, 1628 BC, 1159 BC, 208 BC, and AD 540. The evidence suggests that these environmental downturns were wide-ranging catastrophic events; the AD 540 event in particular is attested in tree-ring chronologies from Siberia through Europe and North and South America. This event coincides with the second largest ammonium signal in the Greenland ice in the last two millennia, the largest being in AD 1014, and both these epochs were accompanied by cometary apparitions. Baillie explains the general absence of mainstream historical references to this event by the fact it was described in terms of biblical metaphors since at that time "Christian beliefs included the dogma that nothing that happens in the heavens could have any conceivable effect on the Earth."
Since then, he has devoted much of his attention to uncovering the causes of these global environmental downturns. He believes that impacts from cometary debris may account for most of the downturns, especially the AD 540 event. This hypothesis is supported in work by British cometary astrophysicists, who find that earth was at increased risk of bombardment by cometary debris in the AD 400-600 timeframe, based on the frequency of fireball activity in the Taurid meteor streams recorded in Chinese archives.
To provide further support to his cometary debris theory, Dr Baillie has searched the written record and traditions embodied in myths. There he has found evidence that the dates of the environmental downturns listed above are often associated with collapses of civilizations or turning points in history. The AD 540 event, for example, may have been associated with a catastrophe that ushered in the Dark Ages of Europe.
His book, Exodus to Arthur: Catastrophic Encounters with Comets (Batsford, 1999), relates the findings of his tree-ring studies to a series of global environmental traumas over the past 4400 years that may mark events such as the biblical Exodus, the disasters which befell Egypt, collapses of Chinese dynasties, and the onset of the European Dark Ages. The Celtic Gods: Comets in Irish Mythology (Tempus, 2005), co-authored with Patrick McCafferty, focuses on the AD 540 event as recorded in the historical records and myths of Ireland and shows that the imagery in the myths and the times between events are consistent with a comet with an earth-crossing orbit similar to P/Encke, as described by the British astronomers Victor Clube and Bill Napier. His latest book, New Light on the Black Death: The Cosmic Connection (Tempus, 2006), shows how the tree-ring and Greenland ice core evidence and descriptions in annals, myths and metaphors adduced in support of the global environmental downturn at AD 540, which included the Justinian plague, also applies to conditions extant at the time of the Black Death in AD 1348.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/925578/posts

Mike Baillie is Professor of Palaeoecology at Queens University, Belfast, Northern Ireland. He is an authority on tree rings and their use in dating ancient events (every year, a tree adds a "ring" to its trunk as it grows - good years are represented by thick rings while bad years are represented by thin rings). He conducted a complete (and continuous) review of annual global tree growth patterns over the last 5,000 years and found that there were five major environmental shocks that were witnessed worldwide. These shocks were reflected in the ring widths being very thin. Wanting to know more, he turned to human historical records, and found that the years in question (between 2354 and 2345 BC, 1628 and 1623 BC, 1159 and 1141 BC, 208 and 204 BC, and AD 536 and 545) all corresponded with "dark ages" in civilisation.
The minimal growth of trees around 2350 BC has been associated in the past with the eruption of a volcano in Iceland. Yet, the period in question is also associated with floods, the creation of new lakes, and even the start of Chinese history. Furthermore, Marie-Agnes Courty, an archaeologist from France, has claimed new data regarding a catastrophe said to have occurred in the Middle East. Samples from three separate regions all appear to contain a calcite material found only in meteorites, and analysis of debris show what seems to be a combination of "a burnt surface horizon and air blast."
Indeed, some 40 cities throughout North Africa, the Middle East, Europe, and Asia are thought to have been devastated, or even disappeared, about the same time in a series of catastrophes.
The twelfth century BC is associated with the "Greek Dark Ages", the end of the Hittite civilisation in the Near East, the end of Bronze Age Israel, and the end of the Bronze Age Shang dynasty in China. Ancient Chinese history has the notion of "mandate from heaven", where the rulers were essentially subject to the whims of the sky above. Strange sights in the sky would not be seen as good news for Chinese Emperors. Indeed, around this time, Chinese records speak of : "...many gods and spirits were annihilated in this battle, and several stellar dignitaries were replaced by newcomers to the celestial domains." What could cause such global shocks? A likely answer, which has a good fit to the evidence, was what the European and Chinese observers described at the time as "dragons in the sky" - comets! We're not talking about an intact large comet (if that had hit in the last several millennia, we would not be here today), but rather fragments from a disintegrating comet or asteroid (small pieces like that which hit Tunguska in 1908). These would throw up dust that would envelope the world and dim our view of the Sun and skies. All this sounds like an interesting theory, but is there any evidence "above us" that fits in with the scenario. How do we account for so many impacts over the last several millennia when the consensus today in astronomy is that impacts causing global consequences (mild as well as major) are very rare?

http://evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=4979

Comet Collision Possible Cause of 'Dark Ages'

Scientists at Cardiff University, UK, believe they have discovered the cause of crop failures and summer frosts some 1,500 years ago – a comet colliding with Earth.
The team has been studying evidence from tree rings, which suggests that the Earth underwent a series of very cold summers around 536-540 AD, indicating an effect rather like a nuclear winter.
The scientists in the School of Physics and Astronomy believe this was caused by a comet hitting the earth and exploding in the upper atmosphere. The debris from this giant explosion was such that it enveloped the earth in soot and ash, blocking out the sunlight and causing the very cold weather.
This effect is known as a plume and is similar to that which was seen when comet Shoemaker-Levy-9 hit Jupiter in 1995.
Historical references from this period - known as the Dark Ages – are sparse, but what records there are, tell of crop failures and summer frosts.
The work was carried out by two Cardiff undergraduate students, Emma Rigby and Mel Symonds, as part of their student project work under the supervision of Dr Derek Ward-Thompson.
Their findings are reported in the February issue of Astronomy and Geophysics, the in-house magazine of the Royal Astronomical Society.
The surprising result of the new work is just how small a comet is needed to cause such dramatic effects. The scientists calculate that a comet not much more than half a kilometre across could cause a global nuclear winter effect. This is significantly smaller than was previously thought.
Dr. Ward-Thompson said: "One of the exciting aspects of this work is that we have re-classified the size of comet that represents a global threat. This work shows that even a comet of only half a kilometre in size could have global consequences. Previously nothing less than a kilometre across was counted as a global threat. If such an event happened again today, then once again a large fraction of the earth's population could face starvation." The comet impact caused crop failures and wide-spread starvation among the sixth century population. The timing coincides with the Justinian Plague, widely believed to be the first appearance of the Black Death in Europe. It is possible that the plague was so rampant and took hold so quickly because the population was already weakened by starvation.

http://www.sott.net/articles/show/202540-Dark-Ages-Did-a-comet-impact-cause-global-catastrophe-around-500-A-D-

Double impact may have caused tsunami, global cooling

Pieces of a giant asteroid or comet that broke apart over Earth may have crashed off Australia about 1,500 years ago, says a scientist who has found evidence of the possible impact craters.

Satellite measurements of the Gulf of Carpentaria revealed tiny changes in sea level that are signs of impact craters on the seabed below, according to new research by marine geophysicist Dallas Abbott.

Based on the satellite data, one crater should be about 11 miles (18 kilometers) wide, while the other should be 7.4 miles (12 kilometers) wide.

For years Abbott, of Columbia University's Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, has argued that V-shaped sand dunes along the gulf coast are evidence of a tsunami triggered by an impact.

"These dunes are like arrows that point toward their source," Abbott said. In this case, the dunes converge on a single point in the gulf - the same spot where Abbott found the two sea-surface depressions.

The new work is the latest among several clues linking a major impact event to an episode of global cooling that affected crop harvests from A.D. 536 to 545, Abbott contends.

According to the theory, material thrown high into the atmosphere by the Carpentaria strike probably triggered the cooling, which has been pinpointed in tree-ring data from Asia and Europe.

What's more, around the same time the Roman Empire was falling apart in Europe, Aborigines in Australia may have witnessed and recorded the double impact, she said.

Aborigine Eyewitnesses

Based on the new research, Abbott thinks the two craters were made by an object that split into pieces as it approached Earth.

To make a pair of craters this big in the seafloor's soft sediments, the original object must have been about 2,000 feet (600 meters) across before it broke up, she said.

Core samples from the region back up the case for such an impact, Abbott added. Previous research had found that the samples contain smooth, magnetic spherules, which were probably created when the object's explosive landing melted material and blasted it into the sky.

Furthermore, a 2004 paper in the journal Astronomy and Geophysics suggested that the circa-A.D. 500 global cooling event might have been caused by dust from an impact of approximately the size Abbott has now calculated for Carpentaria.

It's even possible the impact had eyewitnesses: Aboriginal rock art from the region seems to have recorded the event, although the researchers examining this art declined to discuss details until after their paper has been published.

Still, Duane Hamacher, a Ph.D. student at Macquarie University in Sydney not involved with the rock-art work, recently demonstrated that Aboriginal stories can be used to locate meteorite craters.

"Numerous examples of fiery stars falling from the sky and striking the earth, causing death and destruction, are found throughout Aboriginal Dreamings [spiritual folk stories] across Australia," Hamacher wrote on his blog.

"The descriptions seem to indicate that the events were witnessed, not simply 'made-up.'"

In findings yet to be published, Hamacher used one set of Aboriginal stories, along with images in Google Earth, to locate a 919-foot-wide (280-meter-wide) impact crater in Palm Valley, in Australia's Northern Territory.

stoneill

I was just about to reply with the tree-ring research that shows a significant event happened during the 6th century. But you already have that now.

CDfm

ejmaztec wrote: »

Mike Baillie was the scientist to whom I referred earlier. It's not as if he plucked his theory from nowhere, and there seems to be enough evidence to support it. I don't know about the Bolivian aspect of it, but there seemed to be enough going on across the rest of the planet without that.

I am not dismissing that something happened

There have been events like the Greenland Vikings

http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/greenland/

and the Little Ice Age.

This bit in the OP;The same researchers believe that it was surpressed by the Church at the time because the whole idea of comets falling from space was just not possible! The earth was flat remember, makes me think pre-history and that the simplest explanation is that it was before written records began.

So I am not disputing the events , but, the church conspiracy thing is a bit far fetched for the era.

ejmaztec

CDfm wrote: »

I am not dismissing that something happened

There have been events like the Greenland Vikings

http://www.archaeology.org/online/features/greenland/

and the Little Ice Age.

This bit in the OP;The same researchers believe that it was surpressed by the Church at the time because the whole idea of comets falling from space was just not possible! The earth was flat remember, makes me think pre-history and that the simplest explanation is that it was before written records began.

So I am not disputing the events , but, the church conspiracy thing is a bit far fetched for the era.

I can imagine all of the religions at the time coming up with all kinds of crap to keep the peasants in check.:D

Manach

That cosmic debris impacts earth on occasion is well known. This has effected every life on this planet since the end of the dinosaurs. However, ring tree evidence can be effected by a number of other causes, such as solar output which has its own regular cycle of max/min output.

I fail to see a link for such an impact in Boliva which would have made Ireland uninhabitable? Again, no ash debris has been found Ireland, afaik.
The impact scale of this would have global. Other civilisatons at the time outside the reach of the Church would have recorded this.

Enkidu

Jesus Nut wrote: »

Its like the whole celtic thing, a simple search will reveal that the term "Celt" or "Celtic" didnt even exist prior to 1749.

It's the native Gaulish ethnonym and most likely the original Proto-Celtic Ethnonym. They would have called themselves Keltoi. For a summary of the research suporting this see:

Celts, Galatians and Gauls: the etymology of Greek Keltoi, Galatai and Latin Galli
- Kim McCone, Tionól 2007.

Although any of McCone's articles on the topic will suffice.

CDfm

ejmaztec wrote: »

I can imagine all of the religions at the time coming up with all kinds of crap to keep the peasants in check.:D

Sure isn't it well known that Charlemange himself had to turn to Irish Monks to teach the Europeans at the end of the Dark Ages. Cruindmelus, Clement Of Ireland and Dungal of Bobbio.

Manach wrote: »

I fail to see a link for such an impact in Boliva which would have made Ireland uninhabitable? Again, no ash debris has been found Ireland, afaik.
The impact scale of this would have global. Other civilisatons at the time outside the reach of the Church would have recorded this.

The Chinese ?

Enkidu wrote: »

It's the native Gaulish ethnonym and most likely the original Proto-Celtic Ethnonym. They would have called themselves Keltoi. For a summary of the research suporting this see:

Celts, Galatians and Gauls: the etymology of Greek Keltoi, Galatai and Latin Galli
- Kim McCone, Tionól 2007.

Although any of McCone's articles on the topic will suffice.

Hi Enkidu

Jesus Nut

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5vxEW-dRUs

Manach

The Chinese ?
Offhand, based on my studies, there would have been as well the Ancient Amerindians, Persians, various India territories, the Byzantines, possibly Ethophia.

CDfm

Manach wrote: »

The Chinese ?
Offhand, based on my studies, there would have been as well the Ancient Amerindians, Persians, various India territories, the Byzantines, possibly Ethophia.

So these guys would all have had written records of a sort ?

Manach

CDfm wrote: »

So these guys would all have had written records of a sort ?

Offhand yes - except for the Amerindians: they had developed systems of glyphs and sticks with winding string to keep records (some of which still has not been deciphered. )

Jesus Nut

Just found this video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rujIuJ-xwN8

Fact or Fiction?

CDfm

Jesus Nut wrote: »

Fact or Fiction?

For me the Arthurian legends are a bit like Finn McCool and isn't this what this guy does ?.

Meteor showers & climate issues maybe sure why not.

What do you think ?

Bannasidhe

Had a quick look in the Irish Annals for the years 520 -540 AD

No mention of the sun being blocked, debris/dust in the air or crop failures in the Annals of Ulster - although apparently in 536 'the bread failed'
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T100001A/index.html

Same in the Annals of Inishfallen - they do mention the bread problem but say that happened in 537 AD.
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T100001A/index.html

The Annals of the Four Masters has no mention of dust/debris, crop failure and are silent about the bread. http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T100005A/index.html

Loch Cé and Connacht do not go back that far.


In my experience of trawling through the various Annals over the last decade or so they constantly mention events such as crop failures - and bountiful crops - plus things like plague, food shortages for various reasons besides crop failures, extreme weather conditions and comets. If there had been widespread crop failure I would expect it to be mentioned - particularly in the Four Masters as that is a compilations of many different annals from all over Ireland - many of which are no longer extant.

Bannasidhe

Manach wrote: »

Offhand yes - except for the Amerindians: they had developed systems of glyphs and sticks with winding string to keep records (some of which still has not been deciphered. )

Pre-Colombian Mayan had a system of writing and record keeping -

The Maya is a Mesoamerican civilization, noted for the only known fully developed written language of the pre-Columbian Americas, as well as for its art, architecture, and mathematical and astronomical systems. Initially established during the Pre-Classic period (c. 2000 BC to 250 AD), according to the Mesoamerican chronology, many Maya cities reached their highest state of development during the Classic period (c. 250 to 900 AD), and continued throughout the Post-Classic period until the arrival of the Spanish.
The Maya civilization shares many features with other Mesoamerican civilizations due to the high degree of interaction and cultural diffusion that characterized the region. Advances such as writing, epigraphy, and the calendar did not originate with the Maya; however, their civilization fully developed them. Maya influence can be detected from Honduras, Guatemala, Northern El Salvador and to as far as central Mexico, more than 1,000 km (620 mi) from the Maya area. Many outside influences are found in Maya art and architecture, which are thought to result from trade and cultural exchange rather than direct external conquest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization

Literacy: an introduction to the ecology of written language
By David Barton

Also refers to literacy among Pre-Colombian Ameri-Indians.

http://books.google.ie/books?id=rDRfUU43FYoC&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=pre-Columbian+American-Indian+literacy&source=bl&ots=UBx3nF0ep_&sig=n62sD-gpq-fb3LFJQ40xT-4Q5-8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=cnYTT4jHMs2ZhQeg3Y2GAg&sqi=2&ved=0CEIQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=pre-Columbian%20American-Indian%20literacy&f=false

Manach

Bannasidhe, thanks for that. My main source on history for that region is my lecture notes and the book "The Conquest of the Incas" by John Hemming.

Gee Bag

The disaster of 536 AD (or thereabouts) is very well known was not just confined to Ireland. Accounts of crop failures and the skies darkening etc. come from all cultures then literate across the globe. The first time I read about it was in Procopius, a Byzantine historian of the sixth century. The majority opinion is that a massive volcanic eruption in Indonesia was the cause. The most recent comparable events are the 'the Year Without Summer' (1816) and the series of poor summers and harsh winters that followed the eruption of Krakatoa in the the 1880's.

The best physical evidence comes from tree ring growth patterns, lake bed sediments and ice cores from the polar regions.

Mike Bailie's work on tree ring dating (dendrochronolgy) gives Ireland one of the most complete dendro sequences in the world. It is based on the principle that the tree rings which grow each year are identifiable due to the unique atmospheric conditions of that year. By over lapping tree rings of known date it was possible to create a sequence going back 7,500 years for Ireland. I think the internatial sequence goes back 11,000 years.

I have a few books and papers from journals which refer to the 536 AD event. I'll have to fish them out to give references.

However, Good old wikipedia has a page with lots of good links;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_weather_events_of_535%E2%80%93536

Alternatively if you google 536 AD you'll get links for hundreds of articles and web pages.

P.S. I know there are those who argue that the term 'Dark Ages' is derived from the skies literally becoming dark because of volcanic ash. However, the more generally accepted origin is to do with the collapse of the western Roman Empire and the subsequent collapse of social order and education through Latin.

Bannasidhe

Gee Bag wrote: »

The disaster of 536 AD (or thereabouts) is very well known was not just confined to Ireland. Accounts of crop failures and the skies darkening etc. come from all cultures then literate across the globe. The first time I read about it was in Procopius, a Byzantine historian of the sixth century. The majority opinion is that a massive volcanic eruption in Indonesia was the cause. The most recent comparable events are the 'the Year Without Summer' (1816) and the series of poor summers and harsh winters that followed the eruption of Krakatoa in the the 1880's.

The best physical evidence comes from tree ring growth patterns, lake bed sediments and ice cores from the polar regions.

Mike Bailie's work on tree ring dating (dendrochronolgy) gives Ireland one of the most complete dendro sequences in the world. It is based on the principle that the tree rings which grow each year are identifiable due to the unique atmospheric conditions of that year. By over lapping tree rings of known date it was possible to create a sequence going back 7,500 years for Ireland. I think the internatial sequence goes back 11,000 years.

I have a few books and papers from journals which refer to the 536 AD event. I'll have to fish them out to give references.

However, Good old wikipedia has a page with lots of good links;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_weather_events_of_535%E2%80%93536

Alternatively if you google 536 AD you'll get links for hundreds of articles and web pages.

P.S. I know there are those who argue that the term 'Dark Ages' is derived from the skies literally becoming dark because of volcanic ash. However, the more generally accepted origin is to do with the collapse of the western Roman Empire and the subsequent collapse of social order and education through Latin.

One of the links provided is to the Annals I searched last night. The failure of Bread means the Wheat crop failed - not all crops. Yet, as historians such as Nicholls have shown, wheat was not a major crop in Ireland - oats were the mainstay, with barley a far off second.

In fact I have heard it suggested that one of the reasons for the high percentage of ceoliacs in Ireland (10% of the population - http://www.foodreactions.org/gluten/) was that wheat was not widely used.

Nor do the Annals say anything about dust in the air....

I think using these entries in the Annals as 'proof' is stretching the evidence a bit too far be honest.

Gee Bag

The Annals only give a short refence to the events in each year. You wouldn't want to be depending on them too much for detail. The physical evidence for crop failure comes from the dendrochronological record which shows annual tree ring growth becoming very stunted.

The fact that the dendro records tally with the Annals is pretty compelling.

Here's a guide to Dendrochronology if anyone os interested.

http://www.english-heritage.org.uk/content/publications/docs/dendrochronology.pdf

Bannasidhe

Gee Bag wrote: »

The Annals only give a short refence to the events in each year. You wouldn't want to be depending on them too much for detail. The physical evidence for crop failure comes from the dendrochronological record which shows annual tree ring growth becoming very stunted.

Just pointing out that the 'sources' linked in wikipedia articles may not be as sound as some people think.

Gee Bag

You could say the same about a lot of the internet!

Bannasidhe

Gee Bag wrote: »

You could say the same about a lot of the internet!

Same can be said about books - just cos it's been published don't make it true.

There are excellent sites for researching primary sources on the net - such as CELT (http://www.ucc.ie/celt/)
Fordham's history source book (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/modsbook.asp),
Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page)
and
British History On-Line (www.british-history.ac.uk/)
to name a few.

For articles and books there are google books, JSTOR (soon launching a free read service so people won't have to access it through universities etc - more info here: http://about.jstor.org/rr) and History Ireland (http://www.historyireland.com/)

But back to the OP's question - I have not seen any documentary evidence that there was a climatic event such as he described which affected Ireland in the period 520 - 540 AD. This is not to dismiss the idea, but I would need more then a wikipedia entry to convince me.

Is there a link to dendrochronology records?
Or strata reports?

Furthermore, I can see no reason why 'the church' or clerical scribes would suppress such information when they did describe, often in great detail, such events in other years.

dubhthach

I see the following article unfortunately it's behind an academic paywall and the abstract is only bit available.
http://hol.sagepub.com/content/4/2/212.abstract

Dendrochronology raises questions about the nature of the AD 536 dust-veil event
M.G.L. Baillie
(Palaeoecology Centre, School of Geosciences, Queen's University, Belfast BT7 1NN, Northern Ireland, UK)
Abstract

New evidence is presented which shows the response of a wide grid of tree-ring chronologies to the dust-veil of AD 536, the effects of which were historically recorded in the Mediterranean and eastern Asia. The tree-ring evidence, particularly that from European oaks (Quercus), shows a two-stage response which raises questions about whether only a single massive eruption was involved. The observations from precisely dated tree-ring series set the agenda for the interpretation of forthcoming ice-core evidence across the AD 530s and 540s.

Gee Bag

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Same can be said about books - just cos it's been published don't make it true.

Any peer reviewed book or journal is a legitimate source of information. Trouble is, most of the sites with peer reviewed journals require that you have a subscription. I generally photocopy articles to read at home, hence the lack of links.

There are excellent sites for researching primary sources on the net - such as CELT (http://www.ucc.ie/celt/)
Fordham's history source book (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/modsbook.asp),
Project Gutenberg (http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Main_Page)
and
British History On-Line (www.british-history.ac.uk/)
to name a few.

Primary sources are not the only source of information. Archaeology deals with the physical remains of human history. For an event such as that in 536 AD an dthe effects in the following years environmental history/Paeloecological evidence is arguably more important than archaeologial or historical evidence.

For articles and books there are google books, JSTOR (soon launching a free read service so people won't have to access it through universities etc - more info here: http://about.jstor.org/rr) and History Ireland (http://www.historyireland.com/)

I have a jstor account, but there is no point posting links to articles here, it will just give the access denied page.

But back to the OP's question - I have not seen any documentary evidence that there was a climatic event such as he described which affected Ireland in the period 520 - 540 AD. This is not to dismiss the idea, but I would need more then a wikipedia entry to convince me.

Everything I have is in old-fashioned paper format, I used the wikipedia link because it was the handiest, readily available source of info.

Here's a list of Mike Bailie's publications. Exodus to Arthur: is probably the most accessible read on the subject.

http://www.qub.ac.uk/schools/gap/Staff/AcademicStaff/ProfEmeritusMikeBaillie/

Heres a link to an article in nature magazine, a fairly reliable source of info

http://www.nature.com/news/2008/080311/full/news.2008.665.html

another link, this is for Dr. Jan Oosthoek's web page with reference to 536 AD

http://www.eh-resources.org/volcanoes.html

Furthermore, I can see no reason why 'the church' or clerical scribes would suppress such information when they did describe, often in great detail, such events in other years.

Agreed, that sounds like poppycock!

And if your feeling frisky there's a conference coming up soon which will (in part) deal with the issue...

http://irishsettlement.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Programme.pdf

Bannasidhe

Jesus Nut wrote: »

Can anyone shed some light on this?

A few researches B]what researchers?[/B believe that some time in the 6th Century the Island of Ireland and UK etc (Britan at the time) [ islands - and not 'Britain' - shall we say the British Isles ] was damaged from a Comet that wiped out much of Bolivia around 532AD. [Where did the comet strike exactly if it damaged the British isles and wiped out Bolivia? What form did the damage to the British isles take?]
It was said that the land was not able to support human life etc for up to 11 years after the event [. what land - British isles or Bolivia?) ]
The same researchers believe that it was surpressed by the Church at the time because the whole idea of comets falling from space was just not possible! [ um....find this claim dodgy - see comment below] The earth was flat remember.[ no it wasn't. And no-one really believed it was. They knew it was round - they just thought it was a lot smaller then it is.... ]

Anyways, would be interesting to hear others views on the Irish Comet and the overall effect it had.
[ 'Irish' comet - I'm confused...are you saying a comet hit Ireland directly? ]
Mabey the comet was the real reason for columba for leaving our island at that time!!!!! Will we ever know?

OP - can you please link us the source you are referring to?

You say the 'same researchers believe that it was suppressed by the church' - which researchers are these? We do need a link to the article...

Plus, when you say 'the church suppressed it' - I assume you mean the Roman church - as opposed to Greek, Coptic etc...

I find it hard to believe that the Roman church was in a position to impose a world wide ban on discussing something in the early 6th century to be honest - especially something that had been observed for thousands of years before 'the church' existed. Most of northern Europe was not yet converted, and Ireland certainly wasn't completely converted by that time ( no matter what the stories about St. Patrick say ) - how could they possibly enforce such a ban?

It would seem that there is evidence of a climatic event affecting eastern Asia and the Mediterranean - thanks to Dubhthach for the link - but evidence for 'the land was not able to support human life etc for up to 11 years after the event' just isn't there. Stunted tree growth - yes, failure of the wheat crop at least one year - yes. But certainly not for the large scale famine that would have resulted from 11 years of vegetation failure or for severe stress on tree growth for over a decade.

Jesus Nut

I watched this 2 hour talk show the other night on the telly and this is where I got my info. Interesting stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMibF5JvDlM

I really dont know much about history tbh, but this guy sparked a nerve with me.

Mabey what he says is all rubish? please someone tell me the truth because after reading all your replies its hard to know now who is right

Gee Bag

I wouldn't take the reference in the annals to the lack of bread to literally mean that just the wheat crop was effected. Stunted tree growth is indicative of an overall decline in the climate. If large, hardy fauna like oak trees are suffering restricted growth then smaller fauna are going to be even more adversrley effected.


I found the documentary that Ejazmatec mentioned in an earlier post (I knew I'd seen it before) It's called Secrets of the Dead:Catastrophe. It was broadcast on both BBC and PBS, this version has a very corny sounding American doing the voicee over. The bit with Mike Bailie talking about Ireland kicks in after about 5 mins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UvjtsIIUqZ8

P.S. Sorry to say that I would not trust that Alan Wilson lad one little bit. His stuff is whats known as pseudohistory i.e. he starts with a grain of truth and makes it into the story he wants it to be. The Ark of the Covenant in Wales? Seriously?

Bannasidhe

Jesus Nut wrote: »

I watched this 2 hour talk show the other night on the telly and this is where I got my info. Interesting stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMibF5JvDlM

I really dont know much about history tbh, but this guy sparked a nerve with me.

Mabey what he says is all rubish? please someone tell me the truth because after reading all your replies its hard to know now who is right

No Worries Jesus Nut - the questions I was asking are pretty much how historians go about things . Who said that? Where did they say it? What did they actually say? What do they mean by that? What proof do they have? Do they have any more proof?

pedroeibar1

Gee Bag wrote: »

8

P.S. Sorry to say that I would not trust that Alan Wilson lad one little bit. His stuff is whats known as pseudohistory i.e. he starts with a grain of truth and makes it into the story he wants it to be. The Ark of the Covenant in Wales? Seriously?

Quite. Don't we all know it's above in Tara.:)
P

Bannasidhe

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Quite. Don't we all know it's above in Tara.:)
P

In addition to the folklore of the Celtic kings - which plays as important a role in Ireland as King Arthur does in England - a number of modern myths and theories have developed around the Hill of Tara.

Around 1900, a group came to believe that the Irish were one of the Lost Tribes of Israel and that the Ark of the Covenant was buried at Tara. They dug in the Rath of the Synods, but did not find the Ark. They did, however, find some Roman coins.

More recently, at least one author has theorized that Ireland is the lost kingdom of Atlantis and Tara was its capital.

http://www.sacred-destinations.com/ireland/hill-of-tara

This one really takes the prize for sheer crap:

The 'little people' : Just as the angels disputed over the body of Moses, at his death, the angels disputed over the hiding place of the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark is hidden and the angels still dispute over this territory. Why do you think the Irish have hatred continually between north and south. This is a spiritual battle , which continues to this day. The Gentile Christian Church (Roman Catholic) would like nothing better than to control all of this land. With it, they would control the resting place of the Ark of the Covenant. Keeping the Ark hidden behind legends hides the real roots and national background of the people of Ireland. They are Israelites. That is why Jeremiah took the Ark, other items, and the royal princesses to that area of the world. They were to be re-united with the remnant of their own people -- Israel. The Danites and the Simeonites (the 'fighting Irish') live there today...

... In the book: Tracing Our White Ancestors , by Frederick Haberman; we read: "Irish historians are unanimous that about 580 B.C. there arrived in Ulster a notable man, a patriarch or saint, accompanied by an Eastern princess, and a lesser person by the name of Simon Brach , or Barech. This party brought with them several remarkable things about which Ireland's songs and legends cluster; those things were a harp (David's harp), and a wonderful stone -- the Stone of Destiny -- the Lia Phail . ...Irish tradition tells us that Jeremiah married the princess Tamar Tephi to Eochaidh, the Heremon, or head king of Ireland, after the latter embraced the worship of the true Jehovah. Jeremiah became the chief figure in Irish history, life and religion."

In the book: Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright , by J. H. Allen; we note that Jeremiah, Simon Brach, a princess (daughter of an eastern king) and that the royal party carried with them the harp, an ark and the stone called Liafail. This ark is nothing other than the Ark of the Covenant .

Irish history tells us that the last place the Ark of the Covenant was seen is Ireland !...

...Twenty Irish histories agree that Jeremiah the prophet in about 585 B.C., came to Ireland. He brought important items from Jerusalem. One item was the Ark of the Covenant. He was the Patriarch Saint of Ireland. The title evolved to Saint Patriarch. The Roman Catholics sainted a Christian missionary named Patrick, who died in the county of Down, on March 17, 465 A.D. This slick trick, was recorded by history as fact. This Patrick was not the traditional patron of Ireland.

"The fact is, Rome began early to covet Ireland. Once they got possession, it was necessary for them to destroy the influence of Jeremiah . This they did, in part, by substituting the name of St. Patrick in the place of the prophet's; and more, they then set to work to destroy even the old and famous capital city of Tara . In 565 (A.D.) St. Ruadham, along with a posse of bishops and chiefs of the South of Ireland, cursed the city, so that neither King nor Queen might ever rule or reign therein again. They forced the government, monarchy, and people to abandon the place. From thence Tara was deserted..." (The Ten Lost Tribes, Rev. Joseph Wild, D.D., 1883, London: Robert Banks, Printer, Racquet Court, Fleet Street, E.C.)

It is clear how Irish legend has been perverted and twisted to "suppress the truth in unrighteousness". After Tara, the influence of the Roman Catholic church is pervasive in destroying the traditions of the Tuath de Danan, with false stories -- lies. What has filtered down through history are mere shadows of the truth. Hidden are the records of the Hebrews who transplanted their royal lineage and priesthood from Palestine to Ireland, for safety. Jeremiah and Barech are lost to us. Their deeds are to be re-discovered in our generation....

...The fact that the last place the Ark of the Covenant was seen, was Ireland, is a matter of historical record . Historians reject it as legend and prose, nevertheless it is recorded history. This fact is not as important as the question: will God use the Ark again to demonstrate that the nation of Israel is the nation He is working through?

http://www.cryaloud.com/ark_covenant_jeremiah_ireland.htm

'Historians are unanimous' said Haberman in his book Tracing Our White Ancestors? I'm a historian, I work with historians and have done so for many years - not once have I encountered them (us) being unanimous about anything plus I think Haberman is spouting a load of rubbish.

As for the premise of his book - Tracing our white ancestors...I'm not even going to go there!

CDfm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

As for the premise of his book - Tracing our white ancestors...I'm not even going to go there!

If we put our heads together we could............ go back to Pelagius, the earliest recorded Irish Christian & our "gnostic" monks ............ Palladius going native, Patrick's kidnapping.....Charlemange ..... the Celtic Church & Pope Adrian's Laudabiliter ....Knights Templar ...The Flight of the EarlsHeretics and the Freemasons.

It has suddenly all become clearer.

dubhthach

The parts regarding dendochronology and ice-cores for showing that there was some sort of "Climate-shock" in the 7th century. At least they have verifiable scientific data. However when I try googling for: bolivia comet 6th century

I get this very thread as the first entry!

The second entry seems far more interesting, it's from Google books
Comet/Asteroid Impacts and Human Society: An Interdisciplinary Approach

Editors are:
Dr. Peter T. BOBROWSKY
Geological Survey of Canada
&
Dr. Hans Rickman
Uppsala Astronomical Observatory
http://books.google.ie/books?id=Gpwgm022ltMC&lpg=PA64&ots=YKZOrC3OWR&dq=bolivia%20comet%206th%20century%22&pg=PR2#v=onepage&q&f=false

In it is the following:
Tree-Rings Indicate global Environmental Downturns that could have been Caused by Comet Debris --by Prof (Emeritus) Mike Baillie of QUB
http://www.qub.ac.uk/schools/gap/Staff/AcademicStaff/ProfEmeritusMikeBaillie/

http://books.google.ie/books?id=Gpwgm022ltMC&lpg=PA64&ots=YKZOrC3OWR&dq=bolivia%20comet%206th%20century%22&pg=PA104#v=onepage&q&f=false

Either way I don't see anything in Prof Baillie report about Bolivia specificly. That and he's just advancing a theory for reason that there was stunted Tree-Ring growth as oppose to claiming that it was the actual reason.

Bannasidhe

CDfm wrote: »

If we put our heads together we could............ go back to Pelagius, the earliest recorded Irish Christian & our "gnostic" monks ............ Palladius going native, Patrick's kidnapping.......... the Celtic Church & Pope Adrian's Laudabiliter ....Knights Templar ...The Flight of the EarlsHeretics and the Freemasons.

It has suddenly all become clearer.

We could be onto a winner there - The Tara Codex

CDfm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

We could be onto a winner there - The Tara Codex

Epologue -The Mary Magdalene Connection in 2003 Mary Robinson held a meeting ..........click the link for pics

http://www.doyle.com.au/chiefs.html

dubhthach

CDfm wrote: »

Epologue -The Mary Magdalene Connection in 2003 Mary Robinson held a meeting ..........click the link for pics

http://www.doyle.com.au/chiefs.html

you'd enjoy Sean Murphy's site on Irish chief of name scandal. (Mac Carthaigh Mór Hoax)
http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/irhismys/maccarthy.htm
http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/chiefswatch.htm

The bould Mary has a photo in there as well.

CDfm

dubhthach wrote: »

you'd enjoy Sean Murphy's site .

His Robert Emmets grave piece is class.

Bannasidhe

dubhthach wrote: »

you'd enjoy Sean Murphy's site on Irish chief of name scandal. (Mac Carthaigh Mór Hoax)
http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/irhismys/maccarthy.htm
http://homepage.eircom.net/~seanjmurphy/chiefs/chiefswatch.htm

The bould Mary has a photo in there as well.

I love how this whole Irish Chieftain malarky totally ignores that as all male descendants to the 4th generation from a previous chieftain were eligible for election as chieftain then logically following a patrilinier line of descent according to primogeniture to determine who the current 'chieftain' is completely pointless .

Did enjoy all the cloak and dagger hoopla Pete McCarthy describes in McCarthy's Bar around meeting 'The' McCarthy in North Africa (Morocco?)

dubhthach

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I love how this whole Irish Chieftain malarky totally ignores that as all male descendants to the 4th generation from a previous chieftain were eligible for election as chieftain then logically following a patrilinier line of descent according to primogeniture to determine who the current 'chieftain' is completely pointless .

Did enjoy all the cloak and dagger hoopla Pete McCarthy describes in McCarthy's Bar around meeting 'The' McCarthy in North Africa (Morocco?)

Indeed the problem ties in with the fact that the "Ulster Chief of Arms" (McLysaght at time I believe?) decided to go with primogeniture when it came to recognising titular "Chief's of the name" back in the 1940's.

Of course for the likes of the O'Brien that's tied in with the lineage of Baron Inchiquin which was cadet branch of Earl of Thomond line (extinct). Of course it helps that the current O'Brien also tests positive for L226 snp on his Y-chromosome which appears to be linked to the Dál gCais (Irish Type III genetic cluster)

pedroeibar1

dubhthach wrote: »

Indeed the problem ties in with the fact that the "Ulster Chief of Arms" (McLysaght at time I believe?) decided to go with primogeniture when it came to recognising titular "Chief's of the name" back in the 1940's.

Ulster King of Arms is the title, but AFAIK McLysaght never held it and was simply 'Chief Herald of Ireland'. He did some great work, but I disagree with him on primogeniture and on the introduction of what is now described as 'clan' coats of arms. I've often wondered was he forced by some penny-concious civil servant to raise a few quid for his office. One relatively recent grant (non-chief of the name) I'm familiar with was disgraceful, very poorly researched.
P.

CDfm

Jesus Nut wrote: »

Mabey what he says is all rubish? please someone tell me the truth because after reading all your replies its hard to know now who is right

This guy often takes myth and legend and presents them as historic fact. A bit like a history conspiracy theorist.

Your post hit on a couple of subject area's, so when the answer was not readily available people discussed the available sources and what they indicate.

As far as people here can see there was that wheat crop/harvest failure occurred around that time. That is recorded.

Wheat is susceptible to wet weather and was not a popular crop for that reason so that in itself would not have caused a famine. Oats was a more popular crop because Irish climate conditions are not the best for wheat. (Even today the wheat for flour for white bread sold in Ireland is imported from France for that reason)

There is nothing to support an exodus from Ireland .

Was "it" caused by a meteor strike , well that is not recorded in available sources.Could the church of Rome have suppressed it -unlikely at that time.

Is there geological/climate data available to back it up. Nothing definitive. If you were to take 2010's winter and the Icelandic volcano and other winters this century as a comparison this is the type of info you get

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=69342717

So I can't see how he reaches his conclusions.

Can you ?

slowburner

I always knew we were special.

"The fact is, Rome began early to covet Ireland. Once they got possession, it was necessary for them to destroy the influence of Jeremiah .

and


http://www.cryaloud.com/ark_covenant_jeremiah_ireland.htm

dubhthach

I'm gonna lock this thread, obviously the parts about climate change/shocks are interesting, and I do think there are some interesting sources that can be referenced in the scientific literature from likes of Icecores/Bog pollen count/Tree rings I don't think the premise of a Comet been source of such a 6th century "climate shock" can be verified either scientifically or historically.

If people want to have a thread specifically about weather events and their effects on history I'd be all for a seperate thread been created. I can think of following off top of my head: (and there are lots of others)

• Little Ice Age -- end of Norse Greenland colony / effect on Northern Europe
• North Atlantic storms and their effects on Invasion fleets -- Armada / Bantry Bay / D-Day
• Evidence of Irish dark-ages from Bog pollen samples

etc.

Prefably with links to sources etc.